Finally Some Justice: Nadal engages in gamesmanship

[Mike Sams]

http://goo.gl/7EinP

Petzschner didn't get baited into the argument on whether or not Nadal engages in gamesmanship. We aren't talking about medical time outs, but the time at which he chooses to take them. If you say that MTOs are such a rarity then that only strengthen's the argument for it being a gamesmanship issue because he appears to take a disproportionate amount of them before his opponent's serve.

I wonder if anyone has ever done a full accounting of the MTOs that Nadal has taken and when he took them. It would be interesting to see if he takes a majority of them when he is down in a match opposed to up in a match.

Nadal took a time out in the 5th set against Federer at Wimbledon 2007. But it backfired.

 

[Mustard]

No one will know. The only reason people are coming down on Rafa harder is because he has a history of taking MTOs at seemingly adverse times. That's why. How often do you see others taking these breaks? But Rafa is always injured and wins when he doesn't lose 10,000 vamoses and 40,000 fist pumps.

Oh, come on now. The only reason Nadal gets so much hate is because he's dared to thwart Federer so often. That is fact.

Nadal took a time out in the 5th set against Federer at Wimbledon 2007. But it backfired.

It was actually late in the fourth set, when all the momentum was in Nadal's favour.

 

[Mike Sams]

Oh, come on now. The only reason Nadal gets so much hate is because he's dared to thwart Federer so often. That is fact.



It was actually late in the fourth set, when all the momentum was in Nadal's favour.

Sorry, my bad.

 

[Mustard]

Sorry, my bad.

Yes, very bad :evil:

Not only was the MTO at the 4-1 changeover in the fourth set, it actually hurt Nadal and helped Federer in terms of momentum. Federer had lost the plot over hawkeye when he went a double break down in that fourth set and Nadal was in control. Nadal had the MTO and suddenly the momentum was more even again.

 

[Biscuitmcgriddleson]

Oh, come on now. The only reason Nadal gets so much hate is because he's dared to thwart Federer so often. That is fact.



It was actually late in the fourth set, when all the momentum was in Nadal's favour.

So you don't see a problem with continually taking MTOs before his opponent is to serve or if he's down in the match?

 

[Mustard]

So you don't see a problem with continually taking MTOs before his opponent is to serve or if he's down in the match?

Those people who complain about Nadal's MTOs wouldn't give a damn if Federer had beaten Nadal as convincingly as he has other players. Nadal beating Federer in all those big matches is the crime for which some people will never forgive him.

 

[Deleted member 55539]

Those people who complain about Nadal's MTOs wouldn't give a damn if Federer had beaten Nadal as convincingly as he has other players. Nadal beating Federer in all those big matches is the crime for which some people will never forgive him.

You didnt answer his question..

 

[Deleted member 55539]

Those people who complain about Nadal's MTOs wouldn't give a damn if Federer had beaten Nadal as convincingly as he has other players. Nadal beating Federer in all those big matches is the crime for which some people will never forgive him.

Maybe you CHOOSE not to see any problem with nadals MTOs..

 

[Biscuitmcgriddleson]

Those people who complain about Nadal's MTOs wouldn't give a damn if Federer had beaten Nadal as convincingly as he has other players. Nadal beating Federer in all those big matches is the crime for which some people will never forgive him.

So basically Nadal is allowed to engage in gamesmanship because he beats Federer? Wouldn't Nadal be in a better position if he still stomped on Federer and didn't engage in gamesmanship?

Sort of funny that a lot of the people saying that it doesn't matter when Nadal takes his MTOs are the same ones that say Nadal destroyed Federer at Wimbledon in 08 and at the AO in 09. Last time I checked 5 sets wasn't destruction.

 

[Mike Sams]

Those people who complain about Nadal's MTOs wouldn't give a damn if Federer had beaten Nadal as convincingly as he has other players. Nadal beating Federer in all those big matches is the crime for which some people will never forgive him.

Every fan has the right to support their favourite player. People hate Nadal because he beats Federer. Everybody knows that. Then again, Nadal plays a style of tennis which probably nobody in history, before him or after him, will ever likely play. It's such an unusual style and people find it revolting that the surfaces are so slow nowadays that even clay court pushers and grinders can do so well on surfaces like the U.S Open and Wimbledon.
You can have 20 shot rallies at Wimbledon nowadays. It's really no different to the French Open. The Australian Open plays even slower than the French which in itself is ridiculous. That Nadal/Djokovic final was entertaining but disgraceful at the same time. The fact that on a hardcourt, it's played like it's molasses clay, you can't hit a winner and have no choice but to kill yourself in endless rallies.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Obviously, there is a problem with Nadal's questionable antics regardless of the result. Also, who it benefits doesn't deter from the ignoble intent.

I *AM* the truth!

 

[Biscuitmcgriddleson]

I have to say first that i am a nadal fan. However I didnt liked to see that from him. Going to the bathroom before a oint like that...but also..being so quick to ask for a delay due to rain on match point. Federer must have had a huge kick from getting that ace.

However..dont write as if that is something that other players do not do all the time, including mr. Federer... Its gamesmanship, but is not cheating..the ref is there...no?

Could you list a few players that continually partake in gamesmanship?

 

[TheTruth]

^^OK I love Rafa as my 2nd fave ATP player, but that one against DelPo at Wimbly last year was 8 minutes BEFORE the 1st set tiebreak right after DelPo had gained some momentum going into the tiebreak. The foot problem seemed to come out of nowhere and didn't stop him from running around like a bunny rabbit for the rest of the match.

DelPo's MTO in that same match was a result of him slipping and falling later on in the match and having to get hip treatment as a result, off-court. It was clear where DelPo's MTO need came from, but it certainly wasn't clear to me where Rafa's foot problem mysteriously came from right before the 1st set tiebreak which Nadal proceeded to win by running around like a bunny rabbit.

As for the other matches, I cannot comment as I don't remember, but I tend to agree that Rafa is very...shall we say....strategic about his MTO's.

Not a problem. It's OK to disagree. I don't see it the same way as you do, though. I've seen many players play better after a MTO, sort of a go-for-broke style, so I am not trying to make a determination on who's MTO was real or fake.

 

[TheTruth]

http://goo.gl/7EinP

Petzschner didn't get baited into the argument on whether or not Nadal engages in gamesmanship. We aren't talking about medical time outs, but the time at which he chooses to take them. If you say that MTOs are such a rarity then that only strengthen's the argument for it being a gamesmanship issue because he appears to take a disproportionate amount of them before his opponent's serve.


Addition:

http://goo.gl/mvzZj

See what i mean about him taking MTOs before his opponent's serve? I wonder what his MTO average(MTO/# of matches) per match is, I'd be willing to be it's higher than just about anyone else on tour.
I wonder if anyone has ever done a full accounting of the MTOs that Nadal has taken and when he took them. It would be interesting to see if he takes a majority of them when he is down in a match opposed to up in a match.

We simply disagree. No harm in that.

 

[TheTruth]

Oh, come on now. The only reason Nadal gets so much hate is because he's dared to thwart Federer so often. That is fact.



It was actually late in the fourth set, when all the momentum was in Nadal's favour.

This is how I see it as well.

 

[namelessone]

Every fan has the right to support their favourite player. People hate Nadal because he beats Federer. Everybody knows that. Then again, Nadal plays a style of tennis which probably nobody in history, before him or after him, will ever likely play. It's such an unusual style and people find it revolting that the surfaces are so slow nowadays that even clay court pushers and grinders can do so well on surfaces like the U.S Open and Wimbledon.
You can have 20 shot rallies at Wimbledon nowadays. It's really no different to the French Open. The Australian Open plays even slower than the French which in itself is ridiculous. That Nadal/Djokovic final was entertaining but disgraceful at the same time. The fact that on a hardcourt, it's played like it's molasses clay, you can't hit a winner and have no choice but to kill yourself in endless rallies.

This is funny.

There's nothing really unique about Rafa's style/strokes, it's just that we hear about gazzilion rpm on his balls and we suddenly think wow, but it is the same heavy topspin game that most CC'ers did in the past only now with better tech. If you check out Vilas's left arm, it's basically as thick as Nadal's, only difference being that he used a woodie whereas Nadal used modern rackets with poly strings that give him an edge in the spin department.

If you wanna talk about unique strokes, check out Berasategui.

 

[TMF]

Oh, come on now. The only reason Nadal gets so much hate is because he's dared to thwart Federer so often. That is fact.

That is not true. People don't like him not because of his behavior on court. Like wasting time between point to gain an unfair advantage is one example. And the most recent incident was when he took a bathroom break when Roger was about to serve out the match at IW. Nadal lost some respect from the fans. It has nothing to do with the h2h record against Roger. Notice Roger has plenty of posititive h2h against his peers, but do you see them hating Roger? No. It's the content of a character that people will judge you.

 

[dafinch]

It's the same arguments from the *******s everytime something like this happens: (a) if an ump doesn't enforce a clear rule, then there must not be a rule and therefore Rafa did not violate a rule. Or (b) everybody violates these rules, so it is unfair to gang up on Rafa when he does it.

It's always some tortured piece of logic constructed solely for the ad hoc purpose of defending Nadal. In order to see this clearly, just ask yourself, if somebody murders a stranger and tosses the stranger's body in the lake, but is never caught, does that mean that the murder was legal? What if the police department knows about it and chooses not to prosecute because the murderer is a powerful pillar of the community? Does it mean that the murder was legal then?

The logic is obviously laughable.

Exactly, especially (b) which is both untrue as well as being irrelevant. Has "everybody" been fined more than once for illegal coaching, and has "everybody" admitted publicly that they get such coaching?

 

[dafinch]

Considering the physicality and power of the modern game, you'd think people would realize the need for change. If rules were never called into question we'd be living in a much different society. This pragmatism is annoying. The rule needs to be changed.

I DON'T think it needs to be changed, but what either of us thinks isn't really relevant. It has NOT been changed, and you shouldn't get to ignore rules you don't agree with or like without consequences. If you run a stop sign on a deserted road at 3am and get pulled over, try telling the cop that enforcing the rule in that situation is stupid, and let me know how that works out. It seems that the gutless officials are slowly becoming less tolerant of Nadal's tactics, as well they should.

 

[dafinch]

Hey, he must have been confused, he cited an injury BEFORE his match with Murray, rather than DURING it, keeping intact his winless streak(in terms of winning the tournament, of course) at Miami.

 

[serbiavic]

This was wrong from Nadal.