Finally the over-rating of Djokovic based on AO SF/F can end now!

There's NUMEROUS threads in this GPP Forum excusing this loss "Something was Wrong w/ Djokovic" "Djoker was sick", etc. Been watching Djokovic fans on this board since 2011-2012, and they are the LEAST capable of admitting their anti vaxx hero actually lost. They're even less capable of giving the opponent who beat him full credit for being the better player on the day. It's always Novak was sick, had some hidden injury, decided to play like crap, etc. Again, been watching this for over a decade on these boards
There’s a core group of regular Novak fans here. I’ll include myself in the group. I don’t recall any of them coming up with excuses for Novak’s losses. I know I never have. My approach has always been ‘“if you play and lose it’s on you”. End of story.
 
The “Something was wrong with Djokovic” was started by @Federev, who is not a Djokovic fa
There's NUMEROUS threads in this GPP Forum excusing this loss "Something was Wrong w/ Djokovic" "Djoker was sick", etc. Been watching Djokovic fans on this board since 2011-2012, and they are the LEAST capable of admitting their anti vaxx hero actually lost. They're even less capable of giving the opponent who beat him full credit for being the better player on the day. It's always Novak was sick, had some hidden injury, decided to play like crap, etc. Again, been watching this for over a decade on these boards

Yup -
Something was Wrong w/ Djokovic

...was my post. I'm a Federer fan, not really a Novak fan.

But I've watched him for years and respect the immense consistency of the quality of his play.

I've said it a ton already: Sets 1&2 was a guy I did not recognize.

3&4 was Novak as he is when he loses (rarely) at a slam.

But 1&2 - I never saw that guy before.

He said himself it was the WORST GS performance of his career.

And it was at his best slam when he's been playing well enough to make the SFs.

Something was up.
 
That’s an easy way to hand wave early round opponents away with no statistical analysis involved. But the truth is that early round opponents do matter and can weaken a player along the way even if that player wins the match. It matters if you play #33 in the world in the first round instead of #170 qualifier.
Strong early round opponents are rare these days so they rarely do in fact matter. And no, the difference between, say, beating a weak 1R opponent 6-1 6-2 6-1 and an average 1R opponent 6-3 6-3 6-3 hardly matters compared to what the late rounds bring.


Again, possible in a few cases, but it should even out when looking at 32 different slams.
This is an assumption that may not necessarily hold true given what factors are there in play.

No, Elo inflation is a myth. Two Ph.D professors did an analysis of Elo ratings and proved that inflation is not real. This was performed for chess, not tennis, but the mathematical system is exactly same so if inflation were innate to Elo, then it would have been seen here. Here is the paper: http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/papers/pdf/ReHa11c.pdf
I skimmed through that paper and it seems like fun number crunching, but I'm not sure the statistical model they created reflects the conclusion they reach. I understand they're saying chess players make better moves on average now, but of course they have greater chess knowledge and machine analysis at their disposal than the preceding generations ever did so that wouldn't indicate their 'skill level' is necessarily superior. It's like saying modern scientists are better than past ones because they know a lot more and have advanced scientific methods at their disposal, while those scientists of old were basic and naive in comparison, but put an average modern scientist in the place of someone like Newton and I doubt they'd be able to replicate Newtok's breakthroughs.
http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/papers/pdf/ReHa11c.pdf
According to Tennis Abstract, Murray’s 2009 Elo did not surpass Sampras's peak, but even if he did, it wouldn’t be that outlandish. Murray won 84.6% of his matches in 2009 and went 2-2 against Federer and 2-2 against Nadal and 1-0 against Djokovic. Murray was 5-4 against the Big 3 and 14-6 against the top 10. In Sampras’ entire career, he only had one year, 1994, when he surpassed that win percentage and he went 13-7 against the top 10 in 1994, a lower win percentage than Murray in 2009 against top opposition. Would even Sampras do better than 4-4 against peak Federer and peak Nadal? Sampras won the AO and Wimbledon in 1994 and Murray didn’t win any slams in 2009, but Elo doesn’t care about that, just wins and losses and level of opposition. From that standpoint, Murray and Sampras were pretty close in level.
Well, Elo not caring about which tournaments you win or lose at is precisely one of the central issues with it in tennis. Murray might have been comparable to peak Sampras that year at the level of masters and below, but when it came to the slams and YEC, he didn't hold a candle to PETE at any of them so any comparison that puts 09 Murray in the vicinity of 94 Sampras level-wise is completely wrong.

I don’t have time to do a complete analysis of every year, but I’ll just pick 2004 since it’s the first year you listed. I’ll list the actual ranking, not the seeding next to each player. In 2004, Federer played:

R1: #295 Alex Bogdanovic
R2: #138 Alejandro Falla
R3: #123 Thomas Johansson
R4: #62 Ivo Karlovic
QF: #10 Lleyton Hewitt
SF: #10 Sebastien Grosjean
F: #2 Andy Roddick

In 2017: Federer played:

R1: #84 Alexandr Dolgopolov
R2: #79 Dusan Lajovic
R3: #30 Mischa Zverev
R4: #11 Grigor Dimitrov
QF: #7 Milos Raonic
SF: #15 Tomas Berdych
F: #7 Cilic

Roddick is better than Cilic and that Hewitt may be a little better than that Raonic, but that Berdych (who took out Ferrer and Thiem and was leading Djokovic before Novak retired) is definitely better than that Grosjean, but most importantly, 2017’s opposition in the first 4 rounds are just leagues and leagues better than in 2004 so Elo’s call is sound.
That's just the sort of misanalysis djokerbots typically commit. Let's do a proper one:

1R: 2004 - beat (WC) Bogdanovic 6-3 6-3 6-0; 2017 - beat Dolgopolov 6-3 3-0 ret.
Bogdanovic is a weak local wildcard and Dolgopolov is a potentially tricky opponent but he was injured and thus unable to do better than Bogdanovic. Let's call this a tie.

2R: 2004 - beat (Q) Falla 6-1 6-2 6-0; 2017 - beat Lajovic 7-6(0) 6-3 6-2.
Lajovic obviously better but it's not a decisive difference in any way.

3R: 2004 - beat T Johansson 6-3 6-4 6-3; 2017 - beat M Zverev 7-6(3) 6-4 6-4
Zverev is clearly better but not a notable difference either.

4R: 2004 - beat Karlovic 6-3 7-6(3) 7-6(5); 2017 - beat Dimitrov 6-4 6-2 6-4
Karlovic clearly better, he was able to force two tiebreaks on the strength of his serve alone even if Federer did everything else far better. Dimitrov can be dangerous at times but he wasn't that day, poor match from him.

QF: 2004 - beat Hewitt 6-1 6-7(1) 6-0 6-4; 2017 - beat Raonic 6-4 6-2 7-6(4)
Hewitt clearly better despite the two blowout sets, he led *4-3 in the fourth, up a break, so if Federer didn't fight back it could've even been a five-setter. Raonic played a strong third set where he was actually the better player until Federer goated from 0-3 down in the breaker, but the first two sets were pretty basic from him.

SF: 2004 - beat Grosjean 6-2 6-3 7-6(6); 2017 - beat Berdych 7-6(4) 7-6(4) 6-4
The 2017 semifinal was genuinely close until Federer broke away in the third set; the 2004 semifinal wasn't except for the third set and Grosjean managed to lose the tiebreak from 4-0 up, so I would give the nod to Berdych even if Federer was better in the 04 match.

F: 2004 - beat Roddick 4-6 7-5 7-6(3) 6-4; 2017 - beat Cilic 6-3 6-1 6-4
This is the ultimate difference maker. Roddick gave his best match against peak Fed, even if Fed was a bit shaky, while Cilic only played well for half a set and was reduced to a crying mess afterwards. The 04 final was 100 times better than the 17 roflcircus.

Result: 3-3 in terms of which opponent was better in which round (04 gets 4R, QF, F; 17 gets 2R, 3R, SF), but the best two opponents were better in 04 and the final was incomparably better, so it's an easy slam dunk for 04 all things considered.
 
"Ancient Nadal and Djokovic" makes it sound like they were horrible players in their mid-30s but they were not. They just went down from all-time GOAT-level to ATG-level, from superhuman to near-peak human. Same with Federer, who was GOAT-level but then dropped to ATG-level, which lasted until 2019. How "bad" is Tsititsipas? He is 2-2 against Fed with the 17-year age gap. Djokovic is 3-2 against Alcaraz with the 16-year age gap.

While I agree that Davydenko and Tsitsipas are in the same ballpark playing level, Davydenko was tier 2 because tier 1 was two GOAT level players in Federer and Nadal. They were the outliers, not Davydenko. Tsitsipas may be tier 1 for his generation, but it's not in doubt that Medvedev and Zverev are ahead of him for that generation.


It's not that black and white. Hewitt, Safin, and Ferrero all had strikingly up-and-down careers due to either injury or just plain decline. At their highest peaks, they probably surpass Zed, Med, and Tsitsipas, but average level across career? No. Hewitt might be remembered as a tough rival for Federer only because Hewitt led the head-to-head 7-2 from 1999-2003, that is, mostly before Federer hit his stride. From 2004-2009, it was 14-0 Federer. But Hewitt was plagued with injuries for half this period. By the middle of 2006, Hewitt had dropped out of the top 10 and never re-entered it. 2004 to 2013 (the last match they played) is presumably the period Federer fans want to evaluate their rivalry and not the pre-2004 period when Hewitt dominated Federer. In 2004-2013, Federer went 16-2 against Hewitt, but out of all these matches, Hewitt was ranked in the top 10 at the time of the match for only 7 of these matches. For these 7 matches, maybe Hewitt was better than Zed, Med, and Tsitsipas's average level, but for the other 11, very much probably not.

Using Ferrero as a main rival against Federer is more misleading than Hewitt. Around the middle of 2004, Ferrero became a shadow of himself, dropped out of the top 10, never to return, and ended 2004 at #33. Prime Federer played this weak Ferrero 6 times, and this post-2004 Ferrero was certainly worse than Zed, Med, and Tsitsipas. Federer and Ferrero's primes overlapped for 1 year.

Prime Federer played Safin 8 times. Safin's rank during these matches in chronological order were 86, 30, 4, 4, 5, 24, 75, 27. Every time they played when Safin was outside the top 20, Federer won in straight sets. So in 3 of these matches, maybe Safin was better than Zed, Med, and Tsitsipas's average level, but for the other 5, very much probably not. After 2005, when 3 of these matches took place, Safin's win percentage was 53%. He was struggling to beat the entire field half the time. That was definitely not Zed, Med, and Tsitsipas level.

So Hewitt, Safin, and Ferrero were 1st tier at their peaks, but none of those peaks lasted very long and when they dropped, they weren't even second tier but third or fourth tier. And the truth is, Hewitt and Ferrero's highest peaks were before prime Federer.

tpas has 2 slam finals to 1 for Zverev btw. Point is them 3 are are all tier1 of this gen.
you are incorrect about davydenko. he's tier2 of his gen because of his slam under-performance/serve inconsistency. safin/hewitt/roddick/ferrero are tier1 of his generation (apart from fed)
stop with excuses.

at their highest peaks, hewitt, safin, ferrero are a level above zed, med and tpas, its not a probably.
hewitt's prime years were 01-02, 04-05.
also matches like YEC 02 SF(close with fed playing good), DC 2003 (close 5-setter with fed playing good) also matter.

I was talking about generations there, not rivalries per se.
else nadal was there from 05 onwards vs fed.

ancient nadal/djokovic didn't go down to just ATG level, they were at like 2 slammer levels in mid-30s. just over-rated thanks to the inflation era
 
Yup -


...was my post. I'm a Federer fan, not really a Novak fan.

But I've watched him for years and respect the immense consistency of the quality of his play.

I've said it a ton already: Sets 1&2 was a guy I did not recognize.

3&4 was Novak as he is when he loses (rarely) at a slam.

But 1&2 - I never saw that guy before.

He said himself it was the WORST GS performance of his career.

And it was at his best slam when he's been playing well enough to make the SFs.

Something was up.
What was up is that he got his butt whooped in those first 2 sets by an opponent who was playing terrifically. For someone who's "not a Novak fan"...you're doing an incredible simulation lol. He's not some infallible being--he's capable of getting thoroughly outplayed, even at his "best slam". Nothing was up, except him getting beaten. Why is that so hard to say?? Lol
 
What was up is that he got his butt whooped in those first 2 sets by an opponent who was playing terrifically. For someone who's "not a Novak fan"...you're doing an incredible simulation lol. He's not some infallible being--he's capable of getting thoroughly outplayed, even at his "best slam". Nothing was up, except him getting beaten. Why is that so hard to say?? Lol

If you’ve read my posts you know I’m not a Novak.

You’ve already had people tell you that.

Doesn’t mean I don’t respect his game.

I’ve watched him for a long time. Sets 1&2 was very unusual. I agree with his own words: it was the worst Slam performance ever.

Something was wrong.
 
So instead of a 38-year old Fed where he still required the choke of the century to barely beat him imagine he faced a 28-year old Fed. Or in the 2022 final he faces a 30 or 31 year old Fed instead of Kyrgios


I wouldn't rule out at all the Djokovic who beat Kyrgios (who played GREAT after the first set against someone serving stellar) beating the Federer who lost to Berdych at Wimbledon.

Also, this is not the right equivalence anyway if you are talking about Federer facing a 6-year younger Djokovic at Wimbledon as he did as Federer was doing it at his best slam in that case, so the proper analogy would be Djokovic facing a 6-year younger Federer at the AO.
 
abmk in this thread

t36g4en4ti8b1.gif
 
Yup -


...was my post. I'm a Federer fan, not really a Novak fan.

But I've watched him for years and respect the immense consistency of the quality of his play.

I've said it a ton already: Sets 1&2 was a guy I did not recognize.

3&4 was Novak as he is when he loses (rarely) at a slam.

But 1&2 - I never saw that guy before.

He said himself it was the WORST GS performance of his career.

And it was at his best slam when he's been playing well enough to make the SFs.

Something was up.

its called age related inconsistency and fall in level.
 
How can Djokovic at the AO be worse than Federer at W when Novak's 10/10 in AO finals, while Federer has lost 4 W finals, including one aged merely 26? Not to mention 10 > 8. Also, Federer was merely 32 in the W 2014 final. Djokovic was 36 in today's match against Sinner. Not the same situation. You can't sum it up all losses after age 30 as if they're all the same. 31 is not 39, and 32 is not 36.
Only in TTW i guess.
 
I wouldn't rule out at all the Djokovic who beat Kyrgios (who played GREAT after the first set against someone serving stellar) beating the Federer who lost to Berdych at Wimbledon.

Also, this is not the right equivalence anyway if you are talking about Federer facing a 6-year younger Djokovic at Wimbledon as he did as Federer was doing it at his best slam in that case, so the proper analogy would be Djokovic facing a 6-year younger Federer at the AO.

so basically 21 djoko facing 09 fed and 23 djoko facing 11 fed at the AO
he'd get beaten in both cases.
 
Nah mate. Top 2 AO Djoko being down a break in multiple sets means 23 Djoko is a sure bet. Or something.

Well according to Djokovic fanboys, Djokovic is at his peak now. And they won't back down from that myth. They would rather say their hero at his "peak" loses in the finals of Wimbledon while hitting half the number of winners to a 20 year old, and is crushed at his pet slam in the semis by Sinner, than admit he is old and well past his prime, as that would make it obvious what is already obvious; that it is the world field in history for a mid to late 30s man to be totally dominant the last 3+ years, and he is vulturing and padding his numbers from it. That is how important it is to them.
 
That's why I specifically mentioned slams.





Several players were bigger rivals than Tsitsipas for Djokovic in the past couple of years. Mainly Nadal, Medvedev, Alcaraz and Zverev. One can say Alcaraz belongs to a different generation in terms of age, but he's been a top player for the last couple of years already, he is an early bloomer. He is one of the rivals Djokovic had in the past few years in the so-called "Carrer Inflation Era". Then there's obviously Nadal who before 2023 was a top player battling for YE1 and slams. So while he peaked in a different generation, he was still a top player in this one, almost finishing #1 in 2022.

So while Tsitsipas is arguably the 3rd best player of his generation behind Zverev and Medvedev, generations overlap in reality. In terms of how much of a strong rival he was to Djokovic in the past few years, he is behind those. OTOH, while Davydenko is indeed in the 2nd tier of rivals for Federer in terms of achievements, at one point he was one of his main rivals. For instance, Ferrero kinda vanished in mid-2004 which was Federer's first year of dominance. They faced at the AO at the SF but then they didn't face in the latter stages of slams and Ferrero was outside the top 20 the rest of Federer's prime. Ferrero was a top player from 2000 to 2003. Safin was a similar case but until mid-2005 when he got injured. Hewitt lasted until the end of 2005. Davydenko's first top year was 2005. Until 2004 INCLUDED, Davydenko never made it to the 4th round of a slam and only once made it to the 3rd round. 2005-2009 were his best years and he won his biggest title in 2009 (YEC) and his M1000s in 2006, 2008 and 2009.

Simply put, there was very little overlap at the top between Davydenko and Hewitt or Safin and no overlap at all with Ferrero. There was with Roddick as he lasted longer at the top and with Nalbandian too. But Roddick peaked earlier as well and Davydenko was ranked higher than him for a big chunk of that period (2005-2009).

So to sum up, Davydenko was ranked in 2006-2009 pretty much as Tsitsipas has been for the past few years. He was absolutely one of the best players in the world in that period, being ranked regularly in the top 5 and reaching as high as 3 only behind Fedal. He wasn't a second-tier player that was in the bottom end of the top 10. There were players born in the same period as him that achieved more but it was at a different time. Ferrer is something similar in that sense, as he peaked in 2012 and 2013, even later than Davydenko and much later than all other of his contemporaries.

and?
fed had agassi in 2003-05 (&others like henman, moya, kuerten,scud here and there), nadal from 2005 onwards, djoko from 2007 onwards, murray from 2008 onwards, delpo in 09 etc.
there will be overlap from generations.

but the 2 gens: nishi-rao-dimi and med-zed-tpas gens are THE 2 worst gens ever.

2003-09 >>>>>>>> 2016-current and even more so when talking about 2020-current.

a nadal actually present in only half the years in 21-22 and AWOL from 2nd half of 22 onwards isn't a tough rival.
inflation era started in 2016. Alcaraz-Djokovic met for the first time in a slam in 2023. they've met twice in slams so far, with one time being Alcaraz affected by cramps and another Alcaraz actually beating Djokovic in Wim final.

davy was YE top 3 or 4 only in 2006 - which was a relatively weak year (like 10 and 15). not in 04, 05, 07, 08 or 09. get the difference?
06 was weakened from 04-05 due to injuries to safin, hewitt, agassi being done, roddick in a slump in 1st half. Unlike you defending this pathetic inflation era (even more so from 2020 onwards, I say it was relatively weak even if it was federer's best year. Mind you, 06 still had prime nadal an absolute wall on clay and even prime nadal on grass. had quite a bit of depth too. So don't even try to put it along with the years from 2016-current.

As if Anderson making 2 slam finals in inflation era wasn't enough, we had the absolute brilliance of asterisk era with fricking Ruud making 3 slam finals.

and again, davy was up vs prime fed in 05-early 10.
tsitsipas up vs clearly past prime or ancient Djokovic post AO 19 onwards.
big difference
 
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inflation era started in 2016.

Based on what? The big 3 being too good? The Big 3 ended as the top 3 in 2018 and 2019. 1 and 2 in 2017. 1 and 2 in 2020. 2017-2020 had Thiem, 2018 and 2019 had del Potro.

It's not like you can even say that they were winning playing badly except on some rare occasions. Djokovic's level at AO 2019 is "inflation"?

Alcaraz-Djokovic met for the first time in a slam in 2023. they've met twice in slams so far, with one time being Alcaraz affected by cramps and another Alcaraz actually beating Djokovic in Wim final.

If they didn't meet more it is because Alcaraz lost to Medvedev in the USO SF, for instance, Djokovic won their previous and following matches anyway.

davy was YE top 3 or 4 only in 2006 -

Yeah, he finished #5 twice in that period. Huge difference lol. Tsitsipas finished ranked 3 or 4 twice.

Nadal made the SF at Wimbledon and played the USO unlike Djokovic in 2022. Nadal didn't do well at the USO but Djokovic wasn't allowed to play. 2022 Nadal as actually ranked higher than Djokovic. So Nadal benefited from that era as much as Djokovic. And in 2020 Djokovic only won one slam, same amount as in 2022. The only weak year he dominated after Nadal's decline was 2023, but you already had Alcaraz, Medvedev and Sinner. He beat Alcaraz in Roland Garros, Cinci and the YEC, Medvedev at the USO, Sinner at Wimbledon and the YEC. Hardly as weak as it is made out to be. AO was weaker but it's not like Djokovic needs weak draws there to win. He dropped one set only and was destroying opponents in the way, a tougher draw would have made him drop a few more sets but hardly cost him the title.


Mind you, 06 still had prime nadal an absolute wall on clay and even prime nadal on grass. had quite a bit of depth too. So don't even try to put it along with the years from 2016-current.

2018 and 2019 had the Big 3 as top 3, it's ridiculous to call it inflation or weak or whatever.

Mind you, you can remove the 3 slams Djokovic won last year and he still has more slams than Federer, so it's not like he "needs" those titles. And that's not removing any of Federer's, because it's not like he always had tough draws. Djokovic last year had Paul and Shelton in a SF but Federer had Bjorkman or Kiefer too.
 
Based on what? The big 3 being too good? The Big 3 ended as the top 3 in 2018 and 2019. 1 and 2 in 2017. 1 and 2 in 2020. 2017-2020 had Thiem, 2018 and 2019 had del Potro.

It's not like you can even say that they were winning playing badly except on some rare occasions. Djokovic's level at AO 2019 is "inflation"?


no, inflation slam means not good enough level+mediocre competition. both are required
not all slams in inflation era are inflation obviously.

as far as why inflation era began in 2016, because every year from 2016 onwards is weaker than every year this century save maybe 2002. competition weakened.
levels which would have been semi/finalist level only began to win multiple slams.
no way would Murray be able to make up vs Djokovic in a decent enough competition year. But he did and became YE#1, winning almost everything from Queens onwards. federer, nadal out for big chunks of the year. Only USO 16 had good competition for winner (even if Djokovic AO/RG and Murray Wim 16 were high levels)

djoko's AO 19 level was obviously high and not inflation. neither is Nadal RG 17 obviously.

But almost every slam win of Djokovic after AO 19 has had meh or poor competition except for RG 21 and not high enough level for the whole slam (not talking about 1/2 matches like AO 21 SF/F).
even nadal obviously had such wins in USO 19, AO 22, RG 22 etc.
AO 18 is an example for fed.

the reason for all this inflation is the 2 worst generations of all time: nishi-rao-dimi and med-zed-tpas. Stop hiding behind 2000+ generation of Alcaraz, Sinner, Rune etc.

If they didn't meet more it is because Alcaraz lost to Medvedev in the USO SF, for instance, Djokovic won their previous and following matches anyway.
so? point is Alcaraz was not an actual slam rival from 2016 to 2022.

Yeah, he finished #5 twice in that period. Huge difference lol. Tsitsipas finished ranked 3 or 4 twice.
yes 2006 and 2007. davy was up vs prime fed. 2007 easily beats 14 competition wise, let alone 15 or inflation years. so what's your point?
tpas vs well past prime versions or ancient versions of djokovic or nadal and ancient fed. but easy for you to ignore, eh?

Nadal made the SF at Wimbledon and played the USO unlike Djokovic in 2022. Nadal didn't do well at the USO but Djokovic wasn't allowed to play. 2022 Nadal as actually ranked higher than Djokovic. So Nadal benefited from that era as much as Djokovic. And in 2020 Djokovic only won one slam, same amount as in 2022. The only weak year he dominated after Nadal's decline was 2023, but you already had Alcaraz, Medvedev and Sinner. He beat Alcaraz in Roland Garros, Cinci and the YEC, Medvedev at the USO, Sinner at Wimbledon and the YEC. Hardly as weak as it is made out to be. AO was weaker but it's not like Djokovic needs weak draws there to win. He dropped one set only and was destroying opponents in the way, a tougher draw would have made him drop a few more sets but hardly cost him the title.
yeah, cramps means beating Alcaraz there (rolls eyes)

2021 absolutely poor year with a mediocre level for CYGS coming so close.

22 nadal withdrew from wimbledon SF due to injury and was in pretty mediocre form at USO.
nadal benefitted a lot himself from inflation era - 2nd only to djokovic, but still clearly lesser.

med was meh in USO 23 final. that's a really weak draw at USO.
AO as well obviously.
And RG gifted with Alcaraz cramps and Ruud in the final. another really weak draw.

and if djoko faced prime Wawa at AO 20/21/23 he'd lose, plain and simple. just like fed lost Wim 14/15 to djoko. so yes, he did need weaker competition at AO past prime or atleast no really high level competition. Wim 15 level Murray or AO 20 thiem level handlable for 14/15 Wim fed and 20/21 AO djoko (not 23 AO djoko), but not the above ones in prime 14/15 Wim djoko or 13/14 AO Wawa respectively.

2018 and 2019 had the Big 3 as top 3, it's ridiculous to call it inflation or weak or whatever.
not prime nadal (except maybe on grass in 18) ...

federer was very inconsistent and slipped down to like 5 or 6 after early part of 2018.
2019 - injury affected in USO, bundled out in AO early round. Wim was good, but choked big time in final. RG was nice, but never winning realistically.

2018 first half djokovic AWOL. prime-ish stretch from grass season 18 to AO 19, but past prime after that.

so stop throwing out names just for sake of it.

2006 had peak fed everywhere and prime nadal on clay and grass.
give 06/07 fed 18/19 nadal at RG and he takes one of those 2 and completes CYGS.

its ridiculous to not call 2016 onwards as weak - if you have proper knowledge of tennis from 2000 to 2015.

Mind you, you can remove the 3 slams Djokovic won last year and he still has more slams than Federer, so it's not like he "needs" those titles. And that's not removing any of Federer's, because it's not like he always had tough draws. Djokovic last year had Paul and Shelton in a SF but Federer had Bjorkman or Kiefer too.

djokovic's AO 21/Wim 21/Wim 22 were inflation slams too, not just the 3 slams in 2023.

federer faced haas and davydenko in AO 06 before facing Kiefer in AO 06.
fed's AO 06 is similar to djoko's AO 15 actual competition level wise (if you actually look at levels, not just names)
comparing AO 06 with the **** poor draws of AO 23 and USO 23? get out of here
and fed was prime in AO 06. question of inflation does not arise.

Wim 06 - fed has gasquet, henman, mahut, berdych, ancic, bjorkman and nadal. bjorkman was the weakest. everyone else still capable on grass in 06. that is a deep draw, though not tough.
just throwing out bjorkman name for semi? do you have any shame? that's just dishonest BS like saying djokovic had easy Wim 18 because he had Anderson as finalist - ignoring nadal playing very well in the semi.

I'm going to give one last chance here before deciding you are too much of a djoko--bot/BSer and deserve to be on ignore.

Here's a clue: AO 18 would be an example for federer. weak draw before final (only berdych decentish to decent) and one good opponent in the final - federer cracks showing. so level while good, not high enough.
 
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no, inflation slam means not good enough level+mediocre competition. both are required
not all slams in inflation era are inflation obviously.

Djokovic had some weak competition at times in recent years though nowhere near as bad as it's made out to be. However, not good level can hardly be argued. He dropped sets in only ONE match at the USO last year, played great vs Medvedev straightsetting him after he had one of his top 3 matches ever. Dropped only one set at the AO and was putting some ridiculous scorelines. Same in many other events where he was hardly troubled at all and was playing very convincingly like USO 2018, AO 2019. He was a bit shaky at RG 2021 but he beat Nadal there so that more than compensates anything else.



as far as why inflation era began in 2016, because every year from 2016 onwards is weaker than every year this century save maybe 2002. competition weakened.

2000-2003 you had Clement, Verkerk, Schuettler, Johansson and Costa among others winning and reaching slam finals. To say that was stronger than the past few years is a joke. Tsitsipas or Zverev for all their shortcomings are laughably better than some of those.

so? point is Alcaraz was not an actual slam rival from 2016 to 2022.

No, but 2022 and 2023 he was already a top player. He was one of the best players in the world both years. And until 2022 there was Nadal. Before you still had Del Potro and/or Thiem until 2019-2020. Federer as well until 2019.


2021 absolutely poor year with a mediocre level for CYGS coming so close.

He didn't have a mediocre level. His AO final was really high, RG semi was really high. He was obviously poor in USO final but lost anyway.

When he plays great the draw is brought up, when he doesn't play great, it's level that matters. For instance, Karatsev is obviously an easy rival for latter stages of a slam, but Djokovic played a great match, it's not his fault that better players he would have beaten anyway didn't make it. That's ignoring that when talking about Djokovic how good a player is is mentioned, but when discussing others is how good they were playing at that particular time.




nadal benefitted a lot himself from inflation - 2nd only to djokovic, but still clearly lesser.

med was meh in USO 23 final. that's a really weak draw at USO.
AO as well obviously.

Weak draw, although Medvedev is NOT a weak draw on HC by any means (shown by the fact he beat defending champions Alcaraz and made tons of slam finals). But not weak level.
federer faced haas and davydenko in AO 06 before facing Kiefer in AO 06.
fed's AO 06 is similar to djoko's AO 15

This is just nonsense with no basis in reality whatsoever. Djokovic faced Murray and Wawrinka, they are much better than Haas and Davydenko, not even close. Raonic is also better than Baghdatis or Kiefer.


comparing AO 06 with the **** poor draws of AO 23 and USO 23? get out of here

Medvedev is a better player than anyone Federer faced in 2006. Davydenko was his best rival and he never made a slam final, same for Haas. Medvedev made every HC slam final multiple times.

If it's not a tougher draw it's at least equal. Federer had more depth maybe, but for these players the toughest rivals are what count the most. AO 2006 was very poor. AO 2004 was a tough draw.


and fed was prime in AO 06. question of inflation does not arise.

So? You can have a tough draw or an easy draw at your prime or after your prime or before your prime, you can call it "inflation" or any other cringe term but the concept is the same.


Wim 06 - fed has gasquet, henman, mahut, berdych, ancic, bjorkman and nadal. everyone else still capable on grass in 06. that is a deep draw, though not tough.

Decent depth but again, depth is hardly an inconvenience for the Big 3. Federer, Nadal and Djokovic would laugh at having to face any of those guys bar Nadal. Gasquet? washed up Henman? young Berdych? Ancic was okay but he's not beating a decent big 3. In the end facing a guy ranked 40 or 120 in the 1st round will not matter for them.


just throwing out bjorkman name for semi? do you have any shame? that's just dishonest BS like saying djokovic had easy Wim 18 because he had Anderson as finalist - ignoring nadal playing very well in the semi.

Because he is the rival he faced in the SF. I said he faced Bjorkam in the semi. I never talked about easier or harder, OBVIOUSLY Nadal is far harder.

bjorkman was the weakest.

Nonetheless, he clearly wasn't the weakest either.

Here's a clue: AO 18 would be an example for federer. weak draw before final (only berdych decentish to decent) and one good opponent in the final - federer cracks showing. so level while good, not high enough.


Federer was BP down in the fifth which he saved and then he went on to win the set very comfortably. I don't recall many of the so-called "inflation" slams in which Djokovic was in a similar position, except Wimbledon 2018 and Wimbledon 2019 where he was like that but it was vs a Big 3 so acting like he is supposed to win in straights would be ridiculous, especially in 2018 since Nadal is the same age. In how many other slams was he break point down after having lost 2 sets prior? At any stage in the draw, weather final or not. 2020 vs Thiem was the worst he's been IIRC, but he cruised in the last 2 sets. Vs Sinner and Tsitsipas he also won comfortably the last 2 sets after losing the first two. Unless I'm misremembering he was never in serious danger of losing any of those or any other.
 
Djokovic has long since surpassed Federer's achievements. Left him in the dust. One AO semi-final loss to a brilliant young player doesn't change that. Be content with the fact Federer will always be remembered as the third best of a golden era. Just be proud of him for that.
I always have been and will be. Like every true Fedfan, my love for Roger has always been based around his game and not unreasonable expectations to fill a role he never occupied - the best of history or his generation.
 
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Djokovic has long since surpassed Federer's achievements. Left him in the dust. One AO semi-final loss to a brilliant young player doesn't change that. Be content with the fact Federer will always be remembered as the third best of a golden era. Just be proud of him for that.

Federer was the best of his era. He was also 3rd best in a different era but they are not mutually exclusive.
 
Is this true? If so it calls into question a looooooot about Novak that he can’t play in normal outdoor conditions
Sort of like 10-21 calls into question a lot about Feddy that he can't play against rivals in almost any slam conditions.
 
Fed’s rivals were Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Nalbandian, Baghdatis, and Phillippoussis.
Rochus, Bjorkman, Ljubicic, Kiefer, etc. all his competition during his slam winning days which interestingly enough ended when Nadal and Djokovic, also part of his era, found their slam winning form.
 
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If by knowing you mean daydreaming and by stuff you mean time traveling fantasies than we can agree.

Well I have seen abmk give detailed analysis of players from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and players even before the 60s. That automatically makes him far more intelligent and informed on tennis than you and most in this thread who I have NEVER seen discuss or mention any player before 2004 atleast.
 
Sinner needed to win but maybe not for the reason listed here as long as agree on that. :)
 
LOL at Djokovic fans mocking Federer's opposition. Whatever you think of Federer's competition it is still light years ahead of an era Casper Ruud made 3 slam finals in 13 months. and a 37 year old wins almost every slam he plays, sometimes even half assing it.

It's 2024 already and it baffles me that they don't want to admit this era is so weak, after witnessing 90s born failures. To compare this CIE to Federer's era is an insult, since the past prime big 3(especially younger Nole) have vultured 23 slams combined. I mean for Federer's era to rival this weak CIE, players like 30+ years old post prime Sampras + Agassi would have to vulture 20 slams, dominate the field, and consistently rank at the very top. But the truth is, Federer and his peers were too good and took over the tour. Sampras and his peers from the 90s were forced to retire, because they know their days are numbered.
 
Doesn’t anyone get tired of this same nonsense over and over? The war is over guys. Focus on something else.
 
Well I have seen abmk give detailed analysis of players from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and players even before the 60s. That automatically makes him far more intelligent and informed on tennis than you and most in this thread who I have NEVER seen discuss or mention any player before 2004 atleast.
There's only and handful of knowledgable posters on this forum and abmk is one of them. A lot of his posts are informative and unaware by many Djoker fans who only started watching tennis in 2011
 
Millions of people worldwide don't think it's over including the OP.
lol, there’s no “millions” worldwide that care about this. This is a debate for a few online junkies. That‘s it. The people that cater to what passes for masses in tennis (such as tennis magazines and blogs) have mostly moved on. They all agree Novak is the GOAT because he won the slam race.

The only reason this debate is in GPPD is because Novak is still playing. Once the Big 3 are all retired we can move these debates to the Former Pro player section where basically no one reads them.
 
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lol, there’s no “millions” worldwide that care about this. This is a debate for a few online junkies. That‘s it. The people that cater to what passes for masses in tennis (such as tennis magazines and blogs) have mostly moved on. They all agree Novak is the GOAT because he won the slam race.

The only reason this debate is in GPPD is because Novak is still playing. Once the Big 3 are all retired we can move these debates to the Former Pro player section where basically no one reads them.
Only if we count 2023, the biggest joke of a year in tennis history.
 
There's only and handful of knowledgable posters on this forum and abmk is one of them. A lot of his posts are informative and unaware by many Djoker fans who only started watching tennis in 2011
both OP and you predicted Novak would never reach Fed in slams. So knowledgeable! :-D
 
lol, there’s no “millions” worldwide that care about this. This is a debate for a few online junkies. That‘s it. The people that cater to what passes for masses in tennis (such as tennis magazines and blogs) have mostly moved on. They all agree Novak is the GOAT because he won the slam race.

The only reason this debate is in GPPD is because Novak is still playing. Once the Big 3 are all retired we can move these debates to the Former Pro player section where basically no one reads them.
Millions of people worldwide don't think Djokovic is the GOAT. He is the majority GOAT though among people and probably here too despite the Djokovic always loses hypotheticals.

Then millions of others think there is no GOAT and but those people don't bother with the discussions.
 
The GOAT discussion has actually slightly dried up off here tbf outside of here I check other comments sections here and there doesn't seem anywhere what it was.
 
Millions of people worldwide don't think Djokovic is the GOAT. He is the majority GOAT though among people and probably here too despite the Djokovic always loses hypotheticals.

Then millions of others think there is no GOAT and but those people don't bother with the discussions.
The immense majority of people that enjoy tennis don’t spend time on “hypotheticals”. I play tennis with different people, probably over 50 if I add up all the different groups, and no one cares about that.

the “I can accurately measure levels of players and use that to predict the outcome of hypothetical matches, and with that can tell you who would win (and therefore rightly be called the GOAT) if time travel tennis were possible” is a unique online phenomenon pushed by posters that have repeatedly shown they can’t predict a real match to save their lives.

this was sort of fun when the slam race was on. Now that it’s over can we move on to something else?

i suspect once all Big 3 retire and the usual gang of idiots finds that all such threads get moved to the cemetery of Former Pros they will get tired of it and wither away. Can’t come soon enough
 
both OP and you predicted Novak would never reach Fed in slams. So knowledgeable! :-D
Yeah like you are the only one who had crystal ball knowing everything about the future event, including the pandemic and NextGen mugs.

Sports analysts/experts are very knowledgable and well experienced, yet many predict the wrong team to win the Super Bowl, NBA champion, World Cup...
That does not mean they only start watching the sport in 2011
 
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