Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Greg G, Jul 1, 2012.
Thanks! Will keep working on it, the new takeback results in a very different feel to the swing. It felt like what I imagined guys with full western grips do on the forehand, if that makes any sense...
Anyway, new page! Time for some backhand maintenance again, its getting neglected.
Topspin is OK, unless I get lazy with my feet. But it does have the easy power that I want to get on the forehand.
Slice gets away from me sometimes. I find sometimes I float them long instead of getting a good slice drive. Drops shots are OK off this wing.
what's up with that grip?
Slice? Continental. TS Eastern. Did I drift?
You need to engage your right shoulder more. It's not being used properly. All the other elements are there but I can see you're not activating the shoulder. When you make contact you can see your hitting structure dissolves. It falls apart because your not getting power/support from the shoulder. It's a big muscle. Use it. When you rotate use more shoulder to pull the racquet. Power through the shot with the shoulder.
Look at your form in the video above and then look at a pro. Compare the shoulder usage. Like djoko here. Look at his right shoulder. You can tell those muscles are being used. The shoulder provides power and leverage. Look how their hitting structure (racquet / arm / wrist / angles - relationship) stays intact after the hit.
no i mean how you choke up on it so much.
i mean 'power through contact....' not 'power through the shot...'
Oh. Will try moving the grip lower. Wonder how that crept in.
Will work on the shoulder action. How's the takeback looking?
the one at 1:32 looks good
Yup, that's the one where it felt different from what I'm used to. Swing path is much shallower. Will try to work off that, thanks!
Wait- how do I reconcile relaxing the hitting arm with powering through contact with the shoulder?
This shoulder movement?
(image credit: tennispeed)
good question. i'm not sure how to explain that in a good way. the arm is still loose but the shoulder is utilized...
hmm.... let's see...
idk... let me think about that one.
Perhaps that shoulder movement is the "across" movement?
ok i might know what it is.
your kinetic chain is sometimes broken. on some shots your shoulder looks ok like on 1:32 and a couple of others. in those shots you can see that your hips are firing before your shoulders. Then your shoulders have more power. on other shots you rotate your shoulders before your hips or at the same time..., a little more 'arming' going on. not too bad though. Then your shoulders are 'done' before contact is made. Maybe this has to do with you not using your legs enough. most of your shots are hit off the front leg and there is no push off the ground. Maybe if you try to get some more shots from off your back leg it could help.
also on most of your shots your shoulders are turned at the same angle as your hips at the end of takeback. they need to be turned more than the hips to create torque. you are rotating your hips and shoulders as one unit. they should be separate units. like a coiled spring. hips first then shoulders.
this is called separation.
look at the monfils vid above. you can clearly see his shoulders are turned back much more than his hips and then his hips clearly fire first before the shoulders.
Gotcha. I think I get it. Will shadow it to death, and make sure to take vids with fresh legs next time
also you might want to try to rotate more through the shot till you get the feel of the shoulder usage. right now you stop your rotation and then let the arm whip around which is good but as an experiment you could try to rotate through it a little more before your 'let go' like murray does in this vid.
Playing around with Kinovea, it's interesting. Pretty soon I'll be wearing orange ping pong balls on me
Comparison to Fed:
Looks like just a bit more work on the end of the backswing...
Shadow stroking at the gym, it occurred to me that the stick/pole I was using was an excellent tool to show how you drag the butt toward contact. The improved takeback really makes it easier to get the SSC down. I realized that the backswing must be really short for this to be effective, and the stretch does feel quite different from previous efforts.
Naturally the weight/balance of the pole will affect the forearm action a bit, but I think it's looking good...
Look out! Crazy guy at the gym!
Yup, this would do it. Positions 8 and 9 are money, and the key for you.. Keeping that buttcap angled away will inhibit external rotation of the arm until you pull the racquet.
The positions you are demonstrating here would induce a huge stretch shorten effect.
Cool! I'm on the right track! I realized the SSC movement is a much smaller movement than I had previously thought. Hopefully this is the breakthrough I've been waiting for.
All I need is more court time... >.<
Good for you,,,what do you mean the SSC if smaller
Well if you look at my older videos, I thought it was a longer movement that occurred a bit further back. Hence the longer loopier backswing.
On court viewing of high speed video.
Greg G, Now that you have high speed video and, I guess, can view it stop action on the LCD screen at the courts -
When I started high speed video I would practice, say, for an hour taking, say, 6-10 serves in a clip or 30 seconds of forehands and then go home and view my high speed videos on the camera or a computer. It was not unusual that, in the first video of a stroke of a 60 minute practice secession, I could see an obvious flaw. For example, not enough back swing and body turn on the forehand. Or, on the serve, not having the edge of the racket toward the ball when the racket first starts up to impact, etc. These flaws are easy to see. Often, I had practiced with these flaws for an hour!
I now try to review my strokes frequently on court, say, every 5 minutes, and make on-the-spot corrections of obvious flaws.
Now I am considering going even farther and looking at my strokes every 2-3 practice hits. This would be a very cumbersome and unpleasant way to practice. ?
Anyhow, maybe you want to consider your use of single frame stroke analysis on the courts.
hmm... that takeback looks a little roddick-ish. I think it could be better.
and what's going on between frames 9 and 10?
Too funny, that's the mythical stretch shorten, that you are always talking about.
between 9 and 10?
Yes, between 9 and 10..........To induce stretch shorten, the racquet needs to "flip" like it is here. This quick internal to external rotation of the arm is what balistically loads it for the forward swing.
Yes I know what the what's/why's/how's regarding ssc. Thanks.
i was asking him in a 'do you see anything wrong with what you are doing between frames 9 and 10?' type of way.
Yeah Ok, For his sake, please do not advise him to mess with the racquet arm postion in frames 8,9,10. These are absolutely imperative for what he's after, and the crux of his problem...Right now they are mint.
no those positions are mint. he's had the same issue for a long time. it's apparent in all his vids.
Was that none of those positions are mint?
I mean those positions are NOT mint.
Then don't talk about stretch shorten. You have no idea what your talking about.
Once again you are mistaken. If you knew anything about what we're talking about as opposed to just regurgitating what you've gleaned from skimming through forums we wouldn't be having this conversation.
If his positions were so mint as you say then why does he get very minimal ssc and racquet lag? If everything was so mint shouldn't his swing look like a pro?
If you can't answer that then it is you who doesn't know what they are talking about.
Ok no fighting in this thread
Between 9 and 10... Do I allow too much external shoulder rotation, as opposed to ulnar deviation? In racquet butt terms, you mean it should not be pointed down that much....?
Dude, I teach this stuff..Have for many years. This is pretty elementary.
The fact that you don't know what's going on between 7,8,9,10 tells me all I need to know about your knowledge on the subject and corrective measure needed for the OP. I'll make it real simple for you....The arm cannot be rotated externally when the racquet is pulled....It really gets down to that...If you don't know what that means, or can't identify it on video, than look it up. At any rate, do not talk about how stretch shortening works (as some sort of know it all, expert) when you don't understand this necessary position..In the OP's case, it really is the crux of the problem.
is frame 9 the beginning of your forward swing?
if so can you describe what you see happening in those frames (9 and 10)?
Here it that section of the swing broken down even further. Sorry to change the reference numbers
#6 left arm moves across
#7-8 ulnar deviation
#9 shoulder starts to rotate
#10-12 a bit of forearm supination accompanies the external shoulder rotation. That the issue?
Is my hip firing late?
Re the take back form- it's a bit exaggerated to control my tendency to supinate too early.
@Chas Tennis: yes, I have started to take a look at the videos after each basket of balls. Helps a lot, at least I don't end up wasting a whole hour if I spot anything on review. Plus it gives me a chance to catch my breath
yes what you said is good.
hmm... let's see... hard to explain...
You have a semi western grip right?
You seem to be incorporating Fed's takeback style now. Which is fine.
Let me ask you this first... when you do a shadow swing or real swing with that form while holding a real tennis racquet does the racquet move like it does here? I'm asking because I don't want to comment too much if that stick is not behaving like a real racquet would.
I believe a real racquet would alter the swing a bit (for the better). The pole is too light and whippy. But I felt it was a good tool for showing which way the butt was pointing.
Yes I shifted to a semi western, so I understand the racquet face should be more closed vs fed, more djoko like, and I try to feel that in court.
Speaking of grip, I may be a bit choked up on the forehand as well. Since you pointed that issue out on the backhand, I tried moving the forehand grip further out too, which seems to allow easier access to the ssc.
yes. you'll get more rhs and better ssc if you hold the racquet all the way on the end of the butt like this:
The problem I see starts with your takeback. If you want to do the roddick takeback that's fine but then you'll have to make the proper adjustments at the end of the takeback if you want to get into optimal position.
as it is now, this is not happening. everything looks good until about frame 5 or so. Ideally at this point you should just rotate forward with a loose wrist. As has been discussed previously and as shown by Heath and other instructional videos and articles the racquet at this point should go down and back.
Down and back. It goes down because your racquet head should be above the wrist OR when you rotate forward you are lifting up.
It goes back and points behind your body because you have a loose wrist and the racquet head is pointing at that 45 degree angle we discussed before.
But, this is not what is happening in your sequence here or in your vids. After image 5 and on through to image 10 your racquet head actually goes up! You are using your wrist (when it should be loose and neutral) and you are manually supinating your forearm (when it should be neutral or in other words just maintain it's pronated position in image 5). This kills your ptd.
So in other words after your "mint" position in frame 5 you begin to do an old school "loop takeback" like chico9166 does. You do this using your wrist and your forearm which means they won't be loose and they won't be in pat the dog position as they were in frame 5 so you won't get racquet lag or ssc or very little at most.
When you reach your frame 5 position then you should just rotate and go forward. frames 6-11 are unnecesary and detrimental.
Also, I guess it's personal preference but your Roddick takeback doesn't really help because when you reach frame 5 position the racquet head is pointed, imo, too far forward towards the net. From that position the head has to get behind the wrist so that's probably why you do the extra loop take back steps. If you do less roddick then your racquet head position when frame 5 is reached will be pointing less towards the net like fed,djoko, nadal, safin, stosur, kohlschreiber, tsonga etc. etc.. in other words: EVERYBODY. that roddick position is no good.
look at this fed vid: When he reaches your frame 5 position his racquet is not pointing towards the net. He immediately rotates forward. His racquet goes down and back. Not up, over, down and sideways as yours does.
I feel sorry for your students then. I've seen your posts. Off base most of the time.
Perhaps my fear of the 'wrist roll to supination' caused me to overcompensate to the other extreme. I don't trust myself not to roll under pressure from the regular position. I don't plan to keep it this way forever though. Will work on gradually moving it back. Perhaps a few more hundred (thousand more likely) balls will let me work it out.
Now be nice to each other, hehe. Eyes on the prize
Looked at earlier, more relaxed shots...is this somewhat better?
fear of injury?
if you eliminate those steps past frame 5 then you will be able to control spin and trajectory just from the way you setup in frame 5. An angle change here, a mod there and it will move the racquet during the forward change in different ways giving you more or less spin or varying heights over the net etc. It's easier and less steps and less subject to brake down.
No, fear of presupinating (reverting to old technique) under pressure. Anyway, will work it out slowly. BTW, a better sample swing is a few posts above
Too funny, you are the guy that asked last year how to hit a windshield wiper forehand. Look at the position of the arm between 8 and 9 when the torso is starting to unwind..He's not "manually supinating anyting". blah,blah. You have no idea what your talking about..
Btw, I'm quite certain many of kids over the years could rifle balls off your chest..just saying.
Eyes. On. Prize.
lol. do you teach anyone besides your hamsters?
his arm is clearly supinated in frame 10. it's supinated before forward movement... or 'mint' as you would say.
his arm is pronated in frame 5. it's supinated in frame 10. How did that happen if he didn't 'manually' do it? magic? time travel?
Are you serious, his arm has clearly moved forward from 9 to 10..Again, you have no idea what your talking about..Stick with your hacks on saturday morning.
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