They got rid of it because it would hurt too many feelings and they were too lazy. Thats why no pro or aspiring pro uses them because they are a joke. They use UTR. Doesn’t mean I’m a pro. It means USTA is a joke for ratings.Check out these excerpts from the USTA FAQ:
Q: What is an NTRP Rating and what are the different categories?
A: An NTRP Rating is a numerical indicator of tennis-playing ability, from 1.5 (beginner) through 7.0 (touring pro), which aligns with a set of general characteristics that break down the skills and abilities of each level, in 0.5 increments. Ratings are generated by play in USTA Adult Divisions of 18 & Over, 40 & Over, 55 & Over, 65 & Over, Mixed 18 & Over, Mixed 40 & Over, Mixed 55 & Over, and Combo 18 & Over.
A: A player’s pro says their rating is higher than what the computer says. Can a player’s rating be adjusted based on what their pro is telling them, or can someone hit with them to see if their rating can be adjusted?
Q: No. Teaching professionals have a general sense of how someone may compete at various NTRP levels. This enables them to help connect new players with other players who may have a compatible style of play. However, they are not trained by the USTA to accurately assess a player’s exact NTRP rating. Ratings are based on matches, not how well someone can hit their strokes or play points in a lesson. In addition, a formal visual verification process is no longer recognized by the USTA.
Q: Is there a rating professional, or someone else, who can observe a player to support a claim that they should not be disqualified?
A: No. For consistency and fairness, all players are judged by the dynamic calculations [computer algorithm based on match results], not human beings.
USTA NTRP Ratings: FAQs | National Tennis Leagues | USTA
Find answers to your frequently-asked questions about USTA League and NTRP.www.usta.com
Ratings are generated by results from official match play, period.
How else do you measure how good someone is at tennis, if not by their ability to win matches?
They even got rid of the old visual ratings, where they would have a guy watch someone play and then give them a rating based on their strokes and stuff. That's closer to what you are thinking. The reality is, how good someone looks doesn't necessarily correlate with winning or losing. And winning or losing is the only true, objective measure of tennis ability.
First USTA 8.0 match of the year
- Thread starter dsp9753
- Start date
Ft.S
Semi-Pro
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Look who is hurt. Im just saying the ratings are trash. They mean nothing. You are all in love with them, and a desperate for yours to increase. I don’t care about mine. We are talking orange shirt here not me.I don’t know who did what to you to make you so cynical and negative. NTRP is only for USTA purposes, not global and certainly not meant to be the ultimate indicator of how well you can play the sport. If you don’t like it, I’d suggest you don’t participate in USTA events
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
USTA is used by adult recreational players in the US. Of course pros or aspiring juniors are not going to use it, it simply does not apply to them
But UTR works on the exact same principle as USTA NTRP: only objective match results are considered and they're plugged into a computer to come up with a number. You didn't think there were people watching others play to give them ratings, did you? So the exact same thing applies to UTR: you win, the number goes up, you lose it goes down. Again, how your strokes and stuff look have no impact on your UTR, only your matches do.
So in the end, OrangeGuy is going to have a higher UTR than the people who he beats, even if their strokes "look" better. Because winning or losing is the only real measure of tennis ability
Why do we care about mine? Let’s talk about orange shirts or is he a 14 UTR according to you guys
Except everyone he plays in UTR is going to actually be their rating. almost no one I play with a USTA rating has a UTR....which is funny. For an example I went 9-2 on a 4.0 usta rated but not affiliated ladder.. I wasn’t top 4. But no one I played was in the UTR system yet were all like you... constantly asking my USTA rating.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
What makes UTR so much better than NTRP, aside from the fact that you can now hypothetically compare different groups [ie juniors vs adults, men vs women, etc]?
I've played tournaments based on both and had reasonable pairings. Since there are more UTR levels, I'm more likely to get a closer match with a same UTR-rated opponent than a same NTRP-rated one. But there are likely to be fewer opponents in my draw also. Give and take.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't care about yours per se. But I have a hard time believing your NTRP is completely out of whack while your UTR is spot on.
I don't know what his UTR is. If he's a 4.5 with a 38% winning record, I'd guess his UTR is around 7. I used NTRP to guess his UTR. But according to you, since NTRP is trash, I shouldn't be able to do this. And yet the UTR page itself shows a graph of how various UTRs intersect with various NTRP bands.
Thank you, point made. They are too scared to join a free service because they know that glorious usta will drop. Btw im only continuing to point out how much these pros here........... who have played 20 years yet stuck at 4.0, buying 3 brand new racquets, stringing with crap string, then whining about how someone is stacking their 3.5 team so they can’t get their team to nationals. Of course they need those sticks weighted right and god forbid if it’s off 1 gram...... telling everyone else how they have worked to be higher than the anyone else. Nadal could join and you guys would tell him his racquet setup is all wrong and his buggy whip needs work.
It‘s literally the same in every forum. On a car forum a pro driver came on and was told he didn’t know how to drive, garret sparks was on a goalie forum and was told he had a lousy butterfly technique by a 45 year old standup fatty.... that’s you guys and on a boring night I’m sick.... it’s pure entertainment
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
All of my matches that get in to the USTA system are automatically reflected in the UTR [the exception being MXDs]. So I don't see how your opponents with NTRPs don't simultaneously have UTRs.
So it sounds like your complaint is with people obsessed with their rating, regardless of whether it's NTRP or UTR. OK, fair enough. But how will you find comparable competition unless you have a common system as a benchmark? You want to go back to Open, A, B, etc?
you sure, because it would skew utr I don’t have a usta and I had a 6.1(p) based off 2 matches. I’ve played tennis for 14 months
edit i convincingly beat usta 4.0s. They were the two i got to join UTR
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I think that would be good. Have directors move people but that would take effort. best run hockey tournaments I’ve been in the director will pull teams and move them, because people sandbag.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
That doesn't make any sense. How does joining UTR make your USTA rating drop? The only way your USTA drops is if you lose USTA matches. Whether or not you are in UTR doesn't change anything.
Adults in the US do USTA instead of UTR for the simple reason that USTA league exists and is widespread, while not much is there for adults in UTR
Because they aren’t really the 4.0 they say. So when they actually play a UTR 7+ and get destroyed.....it will prove they aren’t a 4.0 and rating managers can’t let that happen
and those of you who are UTR rated.. dont hit like orange shirt and know exactly what I’m talking about
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
One doesn't "join" UTR; one gets a UTR whether one likes it or not. UTR calculates it based on your USTA matches.
If they keep doing poorly, their NTRP will drop regardless of whether they have or are aware of their UTR.
First you complained about NTRP being trash. Now you're completely shifting the goal posts by complaining about rec players.
About the only things I agree with you on are the obsession over gear and whining about sandbagging. And yes, if a non-famous pro joined and uploaded video, somebody would nitpick his technique.
Your loss; there are some very knowledgeable here.
What? I literally just put in a guys name to report my match and he doesn’t exist for me to put in....he is a 4.0 usta player. moving goalposts... you just stated NRTP is for rec payers... you associated the two. My apologies for continuing with that theme
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Where do you think UTR got the data on which to base a provisional 6.1 UTR? Look at your profile at myutr.com: the opponents you played probably had established UTRs already.
If you continue to convincingly beat NTRP 4.0s, then you'll get bumped to 4.5 and your UTR will rise proportionally. Note that this bump to 4.5 might make finding leagues/tournaments more difficult, depending on the tennis metro in question.
When you wrote "the two I got to join UTR", do you mean these are unofficial matches that you and your opponents are reporting in to the UTR system? Because otherwise it doesn't make sense: one does not "join" UTR; one is "joined", as in the Borg absorption.
I have never played a usta match.... I’ve only gotten results from played people that made a UTR account or had a UTR from a UTR event. that rating I gave you was unofficial matches. I’m still a P as I’ve not been playing as much the past 3 months
i played people in a tournament that was based off usta. But not affiliated... as I stated. They were 4.0 usta. I wanted to see how the system worked. Im going to play some UTR matches this March but not the point
i played people in a tournament that was based off usta. But not affiliated... as I stated. They were 4.0 usta. I wanted to see how the system worked. Im going to play some UTR matches this March but not the point
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Ah, see post 169: you are using UTR in the unofficial capacity, which hadn't occurred to me since almost everyone here has matches reported automatically by the USTA.
Once you start playing USTA-sanctioned events, that anomaly will disappear. That is, if you ever deign to play such events. If not, you can stick to unofficial matches and UTR-based events.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
This complaint makes no sense either. USTA and UTR are, in their core, the same thing: a system that takes match results in and give out a number for every player. Only results matter in both, so a guy with high UTR is going to have a high USTA rating too
What you are saying is kinda like complaining that Fahrenheit is fake and inaccurate, and we should use Celsius instead. But in the end, they are the same thing. Water at 212 F is just as hot as water at 100 C. A guy who is a USTA 4.5 is going to be a UTR 7, 8 or whatever. It's just a different scale
If it's not an USTA affiliated ladder, then it's probably filled with players who think they are USTA 4.0s, but in reality are much worse, and rated lower in USTA or don't play USTA at all.
Them having no UTR kind of confirms my suspicions, because UTR automatically pulls results from USTA to calculate their UTR. So if they played USTA, they should have a UTR rating too
PS: when did I ever ask you what your rating was?
GrassCourtFan
Legend
Now I'm curious. What's Orange Shirt Guy's singles UTR? (Or, I guess, what was it when he last played a season, 'cause it decays over time...)
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
But 100 < 212, right? So I can just stick my hand in this pot of 100C water and not get burned, right? Right?
He wrote "I went 9-2 on a 4.0 usta rated but not affiliated ladder". I still don't know quite what that means: everyone on the ladder has an NTRP but the results aren't sanctioned?
Same question I had. Nor did I ever claim Orange was UTR 14.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Relative to what?
No. The point of NTRP is still the same: to be able to group like-skilled players.
How they go about establishing initial NTRP has changed, from pros observing to self-rated. Long-term NTRP is still determined by results as before.
They already have a new system. Your complaint is that it's inadequate and inflated. But so what if it's inflated: if everyone is inflated by the same amount, the relative skill differences are still the same. You want everyone to drop by 0.5? Fine. How will that change anything competition-wise?
And how does UTR solve that problem? No UTR pro observed you and yet you have a 6.1 provisional. How is that possible? Because the algorithm calculated it based on your 2 opponents.
Lol you found a friend to back you. You have to be kidding me. The ladder like any ladder has levels. It’s based off peoples NRTP I know craaaaaaazy right. OMG should I report the director? For daring to have a ladder that’s NOT sanctioned by the sole power of rec players the great usta?
No one ever quoted you saying he was a 14, it was sarcasm.... Im dying laughing here. The clutching at ratings is astounding.
then you think the UTR actually tracks everyone. I didn’t get chipped yet so maybe that’s why it has only the results of matches I played UTR... or unofficial ones that both parties put In.
No one ever quoted you saying he was a 14, it was sarcasm.... Im dying laughing here. The clutching at ratings is astounding.
then you think the UTR actually tracks everyone. I didn’t get chipped yet so maybe that’s why it has only the results of matches I played UTR... or unofficial ones that both parties put In.
So you have a rating system based of strokes. Then decide that’s too hard to use so let’s just use what everyone thinks they are then use wins and losses.
and no I don’t want to drop everyone by .5. I’d like an actual Stroke based system that was in place till usta got lazy. I won’t play usta where i watched a 8.5 ladies doubles where the strongest places on both teams literally lobbed the entire match. Which the point was to bounce it so high the other lady couldn’t get it unless she hit it out of the Air. The serves.... complete dinks. Maybe a touch of spin. This wasn’t the anomaly it was all 3 courts. The men’s match wasn’t much better. Granted only one was that bad the rest seemed pretty normal.
GrassCourtFan
Legend
There was never a stroke based system. The strokes were used for an initial guess at your rating, which would then be determined for real by matches.
dcdoorknob
Hall of Fame
Have you tried nicking your opponents strings? I mean wins a win forfeits are bagels too
thanks for proving that you guys are in love with ratings. Strokes and getting better mean nothing as long as you win night my nyquil is kicking in
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Kind of touchy: I asked because I don't play ladders: my matches are friendlies or USTA/UTR. It was actually an honest question.
What most consider "taking into account" you interpret as "clutching". Fine.
They track USTA-sanctioned matches, for sure. And since you're not playing USTA-sanctioned matches, which I just figured out since you didn't explain how your ladder worked, your results only get into UTR with the self-reporting feature. For what it's worth, I don't know anyone who uses this feature.
I still don't see how your disdain of ratings will lead anywhere since you're implicitly accepting it by using UTR.
dcdoorknob
Hall of Fame
Only has a provisional as only played 2 singles in last 12 months. Lost to UTR 8 and beat a UTR 6.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Of course, there were problems with the pros rating people: subjectivity, bias in favor of the home team [a club's pro might under-rate players to make teams stronger], etc.
And this process only applied to the initial rating; after that, everything was results-based. Are you suggesting the "Stroke-Based System" would be in place for all matches for every player? Where in the world will the USTA get resources to do that? And if that's not what you're suggesting, then your utopia only lasts in the initial period.
So play up in league. No one's stopping you, assuming you can get a captain to agree to take you on. Or play tournaments [I think you're limited to 1 level above your NTRP; not sure. You could play Open too].
Watch the woman [I'm assuming you're a woman since you mentioned 8.5 Ladies Doubles] in these videos: is this the level you're looking for? She's a 5.0, ex-Div I. If you can hang with her you are definitely under-rated at 4.0/6.1p.
If you're a dude, check this out:
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
You're making fun of people who obsess over racquets and yet you post this?
GrassCourtFan
Legend
Hm, sounds about right. UTR 8 is on the higher side of 4.5, maybe might be some of the lower 5.0s. UTR 6 is the higher end of 4.0 or lower end of 4.5.
If the guy beats UTR6 and loses to UTR8, then he's exactly where we would expect - a top 4.0 or a low 4.5.
Of course, this is just on two matches. But that's consistent with the results this thread said he had in USTA.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
We all look great in our mind's eye until the video camera destroys our illusions.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Again, zero sense. You really don't understand how either UTR or USTA ratings work, at all.
If USTA 4.0s gets destroyed by a UTR 7 it just means the conversion should be different, then maybe USTA 4.0 ~= UTR 6. It doesn't prove that USTA, or that UTR is broken.
Same thing if USTA 4.0s destroy people with UTR 7; it doesn't mean that either system is broken. It just means that maybe USTA 4.0 ~= UTR 8. You just tweak the conversion.
If their USTA profile says they are 4.0s, then they are 4.0s by definition. It doesn't really matter if that's equivalent to UTR 1 or UTR 10. They are two different scales.
PS: USTA 4.0 men are mostly in the UTR 5-6 range
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jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
It's probably some sort of league run by the local club or local tennis association. They say it's for 4.0 players, but then they let people sign up regardless of their true level to increase the numbers, get more money, etc..
There's nothing wrong with unsanctioned ladders and tournaments. You just have to be aware that they will often let just about anyone join.
There's a USTA 3.5 who thinks he plays better against 4.0s? Sure, let him play! There's a guy who doesn't play USTA but he hits with his 4.0 buddies? Of course you are a 4.0, come play with us!
They obviously advertise using USTA ratings, because if they say it's a league for USTA 4.0 players, everyone knows what that means. If they said it's a league for UTR 5-6 players, nobody would have a clue what they were talking about.
How do you know he is a 4.0 USTA player? Did you actually look at his USTA profile, or did you just take his word for it?
If he plays USTA regularly, he should automatically have a UTR profile. If he plays USTA but doesn't have a UTR profile, then blame UTR. They are the ones who should be getting this data
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jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Their original point was never to rate people based on form. The original point was to create a league system where players in similar skill levels play against each other. Rating them based on how they looked was just an initial estimate. Once they joined USTA leagues, their true rating would be determined by their match results.
How do you know you are getting better, unless you play matches and look at the results? Which is essentially what systems like UTR and the USTA do anyway?
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
AFAIK, there is no such thing as "8.5 ladies doubles". There is 4.5 Ladies Doubles where one Lady is 4.5 and her partner is a 4.0 playing up. I'm assuming this is what you mean.
So every 4.5 Lady was a lob queen? And you're assuming this is representative of every 4.5 woman? I guess it's possible in a localized area. But that doesn't match my observations, having played MXDs 9.0 as a 4.5 man playing with a 4.5 woman partner.
But let's say you're right and every 4.5 woman is a lob queen. You think you're better than this and would get bored so you need to find 5.0 women as competition. Given that it will be difficult to find such a league, I guess you can play Open tournaments. Then you'll face off against young, ex-collegiates who definitely aren't lobsters.
Problem solved. Oh, and these women will definitely have awesome strokes.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Not one but three people have pointed this out to JB and it continues to be ignored. It must not fit with the narrative.
I guess improvement is based on perception of stroke quality.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Can you say "non sequitur"? What does cheating have to do with your argument that stroke quality should determine rating and not outcomes?
I beileve both NTRP and UTR have ways of dealing with forfeits such that it's not a 0&0 outcome. How about researching it?
I guess in your mind, explaining why stroke-based ratings don't exist = we love ratings
You're assuming that improving stroke quality is the only way to get better. There are many other non-technique ways: the 3Fs [footwork, focus, fitness, and spacing] just to mention a few.
You're also assuming that we only care about winning. I guess you think that because we're explaining to you why your logic is incorrect.
If you're really that unconcerned about NTRP because it's trash, then ignore it. Just work on improving and your rating will follow. This will put you in a higher bracket with better players when it comes time for leagues and tournaments. This is what you want, right?
Cobaine
Semi-Pro
I think there’s an argument to be made that one can be better at “tennis” than at winning.
For instance, let’s say player A has great technique and an all court game. He can hit all the shots, but isn’t as consistent as player B, who has terrible technique and can only retrieve and bunt the ball back, but is very good at that one thing.
Player B wins more because he moon balls and never misses, but that’s all he can do. He’s clearly better at winning, but is he a better tennis player than player A?
For instance, let’s say player A has great technique and an all court game. He can hit all the shots, but isn’t as consistent as player B, who has terrible technique and can only retrieve and bunt the ball back, but is very good at that one thing.
Player B wins more because he moon balls and never misses, but that’s all he can do. He’s clearly better at winning, but is he a better tennis player than player A?
GrassCourtFan
Legend
In our area there's .5 graded combo leagues. So 8.5 combo is a league with teams of a 4.5 playing with a 4.0. (Same with 9.5 combo, 7.5 combo, etc.) At least they have those for mens, don't actually know whether they do them for women but I've always assumed they do.
GrassCourtFan
Legend
Yes, yes he is.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It depends on how you define "better":
- If it's based on who wins, B is better
- If a test was given on all of the various components, A would score higher
- If one had to guess potential future ceiling, A's would be higher
- If you had to make a tennis video, A would be a better candidate
To concentrate on points other than #1 is fine. Just accept that you have different criteria.
For a category A player to get frustrated that the rest of the world concentrates on #1 is banging one's head against the wall.
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