Flat Serve: What is the actual benefit of getting the tossing arm vertical?

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Assume flat first serve. Sometimes I fail to get the tossing arm vertical at trophy-- tossing arm drops prematurely, tossing arm maybe around 65 degrees instead of 90-- but the resultant serve is often seems just as good as the 90 degree position. Even though tossing arm drops early, I am in the correct shoulder-over-shoulder position at contact.

I know the pros get tossing arm vertical. A few guys like Roddick get it way past vertical... But vertical is a good goal for the rec player.

Most rec players will be at the Nazii salute position instead of vertical.

What exactly does the vertical tossing arm do on the flat serve?
 
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heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
More shoulder tilt, the shoulders can do a kind of cartwheel into the shot.

Also, it may help in keeping the head up and looking at the ball through contact.

I think it also helps to sight the ball like on an overhead.
 
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D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
when my hips, legs/knee bend, shoulder tilt, are loaded, having my arm vertical feels comfortable/natural,... not having it vertical feels awkward
also the follow through to vertical helps (me) for a more consistent toss, stopping short tends to lead to a too-short-toss or a jerky/abrupt "throw" of the ball, vs. a smooth "lifting" of the ball

IMO the #1 reason most folks that don't have vertical arm (well for me this was the case), they intentionally are tossing low, because it's harder to have a high consistent toss, and harder to time hitting a high toss.
next reason is the lack of loadign/shoulder tilt... if your shoulders are horizontal, it feels like your pinching your shoulders/neck area, so you naturally won't riase as high... but if you tilt your shoulders (which will likely also load your hips and legs if you're doing it right), you no longer pinch your shoulders/neck.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I find the power and swingspeed difference very little.
However, ACCURACY of toss due to a replicable followtru HUGE with the toss arm finishing at the same high angle every toss.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I find the power and swingspeed difference very little.
However, ACCURACY of toss due to a replicable followtru HUGE with the toss arm finishing at the same high angle every toss.

Hey WB LeeD!

(Been on a month long vacation to New Zealand so just noticed you now, after returning this weekend)

As for the topic: I struggle big time if the arm doesn't get at least to vertical, meaning for me that:

a) The weight was distributed too much on the front leg, hence I get tired practicing my serve
b) I swing into the toss, instead of tossing into the swing with the end result of not having time to get my racquet up into the trophy(or comb my hair position)

The only way for me to get the arm vertical is to lead the toss with the inside of the elbow and not the wrist.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Not really critical, a old B level bud used to bounce the ball for his toss, had wind problems, and I worked with him to develope a racket face toss which helped lots on windy days. He had one arm.
 

Curiosity

Professional
Yes, Roddick drew his more-than-vertical tossing arm even a bit further back just before launch, then visibly threw it forward timed to the racquet drop and leg extension. The other player who did that, viewable in old films? Don Budge.

I find the opinions of many experienced players puzzling. Why the vertical (or beter) tossing arm? Why some vigor (not mere dropping) of the arm upon launch the active service motion? It fulfills the same purpose as the off-arm in the forehand. Just as good players first use the off-arm hand to sight the ball, its angle of rise from the bounce, then swing it left, then pull the elbow in, so the server does the same in the vertical plane. Sighting the toss helps, but the major effect comes from the "assisted drop, then pull-in," of the tossing arm.

To get the thing if it is new to you, drop the straight arm with a slight and quick bit of boost...and also drop it with a slight angle to the left (for righties. Slight. Continue your launch from ca. trophy in the normal way: Simultaneously drop/throw the tossing arm down still straight, drop the racquet back with a loose arm and shoulder to start its free-swinging loop, vigorously extend the legs. Then, just as the racquet bottoms out, is ready to go under and up....pull the tossing arm in, bent elbow, forearm along the stomach.

The result should be that the momentum transferred from the accelerated straight tossing arm is (upon shortening its lever arm) transferred to the torso, and at a slight angle. This boosts rotation speed of the torso in the horizontal plane, which is a benefit. It also pulls the tossing shoulder forward and down, which is good, because OTBE, that supports hitting shoulder rise.

If a player fails to raise the tossing to (or nearly) vertical, or drops it early, or just lets it flop, or times it wrong, he or she loses most all of the benefits mentioned. The function is directly equivalent to the functions of the off-arm in the topspin forehand.

If you are skeptical of the "boosted rotation" reality, just try the tossing arm sequence in your socks, in your rec room, with or without a racquet. Without the use of legs or core muscles, you'll still find your body, torso, rotates when you pull the tossing elbow in. It is easy to control the timing of this boost, so it is very handy at the moment your racquet bottoms out in an actual serve, and needs encouragement to swing back and up. And as if this were not enough, working in a correct tossing arm action and synchronizing it with the rest, is easy mentally and requires almost no physical effort, because gravity is doing the hard work in the drop.
 

Kevo

Legend
Conservation of angular momentum. The ice skater spinning is the text book example. Not using that other arm is wasted potential energy for your serve.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Not only having the tossing arm vertical but also holding it there long enough is crucial to me for power and avoiding hitting the net.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The tossing arm has the function that Curiosity describes in post #7. Once you see it you see it from then on, for the forehand too......

But I believe that the arm is also part of a body posture that has a function.

Fxanimator1 picture.
pete_sampras_LA.jpg

What do you notice about this picture?

Hi guys,
I thought I would post this cool picture that my wife took many, many years ago at the old Los Angeles tournament. We had perfect seats looking down at Pete serving. I should probably send this to him...just in case he doesn't have enough pictures of his serve.
What great balance and form on that load position.

pete_sampras_LA.jpg

Related thread and post.
Serve - Is raising the hitting shoulder the last big stretch?

Background - My interpretation of some biomechanical research results on the serve-

During the service motion, first, the tossing shoulder is up and the hitting shoulder is down. Then the hitting shoulder is very rapidly moved high using trunk lateral flexion. Last, the final racket head speed is increased to ball impact using mostly internal shoulder rotation. Internal shoulder rotation contributes the most to racket head speed.

The internal shoulder rotators are pre-stretched by the leg thrust. The stretch occurs because the upper arm is at about 90° to the body and the racket and forearm are at about 90° to the upper arm when the legs thrust up and carry along the shoulder. This externally rotates the shoulder stretching the internal shoulder rotator muscles. The internal shoulder rotator muscles are the lat (Latissimus Dorsi), pec (Pectoralis Major), Teres Major and some others. The largest muscle connected to the arm is the lat, the second largest is the pec. Both insert on the front of the upper arm at the same location and internally rotate the shoulder by pulling on the humerus at that insertion point.

The question is what part does raising the hitting shoulder play in farther stretching the lat or in maintaining the stretch?

Apparently it is well known that raising the shoulder can increase the lat stretch.

From the Manual of Structural Kinesiology, C. Thompson, R. Floyd, 15th ed., page 89:

paraphrasing

The stretch (of the lat) may be increased ................by then laterally flexing and rotating the trunk to the opposite side.

(This is a great basic reference. It is a popular college text and the latest edition is $75 while the recent editions like the 15th are just $10 or so.)

Lateral trunk flexion is just the side bend that puts the hitting shoulder up. Rotation of the trunk is just the trunk turn that is used for serving. Both of these lat stretches can easily be felt by just holding the upper arm at 90° to the body and rotating the forearm up and back as in the service motion to give the internal rotators some stretch. When stretched in that way, laterally(side) bend the trunk, feel the lat stretch. Also rotate the trunk and feel the lat stretch.

In Knudson's book, Biomechanical Principles of Tennis Technique, I think he discusses the speed of stretched muscles as more rapid.

Does this late trunk flexion and rotation play an important part for the serve by final stretching of the lat for added racket head speed?

I am trying to identify all stretch details of the lat associated with motions of the serve.

Here is some more detail. I'd be interested in how the points that you mentioned correspond to these points.

This description from the Manual of Structural Kinesiology is not for the serve but in general identifies some motions and their effect on stretching the lat. These motions are all present in the serve, in fact, the description reads like part of the service motion.

"The latissimus dorsi is stretched with the teres major when the shoulder is externally rotated while in a 90-degree abducted position. This stretch may be accentuated further by abducting the shoulder fully while maintaining external rotation and then laterally flexing the trunk and rotating the trunk to the opposite side."

Breakdown-

1) "The latissimus dorsi is stretched with the teres major when the shoulder is externally rotated while in a 90-degree abducted position."

The corresponding parts of the service motion are 1) the upper arm aligned with the line between the shoulders ("90-degree abducted position"). 2) External rotation occurs from the shoulder external rotators and also because the forearm and racket are bent, say, at very roughly 90 degrees to the upper arm when the legs thrust up. The inertia of the forearm and racket stretch the internal shoulder rotators.

2) ......"This stretch may be accentuated further by abducting the shoulder fully while maintaining external rotation..."

There is no corresponding part of the serve because it does not occur in proper technique since farther abducting the shoulder results in more risk of impingement. (McLennan & Ellenbecker videos on shoulder injury) The upper arm should remain in a rough line with line between the shoulders.

3) "...while fully maintaining the external rotation and then laterally flexing the trunk ......................"

The corresponding part of the serve is the lateral trunk flexion that brings down the tossing shoulder and raises the hitting shoulder. Probably starting, as often recommended, with the front hip bowed forward allows more range of trunk flexion and therefore greater lat stretch. ? I have not seen another clear explanation as to why having the hip forward would help the serve.

4) "while fully maintaining the external rotation and then .........rotating the trunk to the opposite side."

The corresponding part of the serve would be 'body turn' (sometimes loosely called 'shoulder turn.') Rotating the trunk can stretch the lat. Also, pointing the chest up, stretching the lat, and then rotating the trunk forward can farther stretch the lat. This may account for the 'chest up' recommendation often heard. Otherwise, what is the reason?

I have sort of a stretch-then release viewpoint where the lat muscle is first stretched for internal shoulder rotation and then released. Maybe some of these stretching motions could also drive the serve very fast more directly. ?
 
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FiReFTW

Legend
I find your post to be outrageous sir! Blasphemy! Heresy! Seriously though, are you joshing?

No, I seriously think a flat serve is overrated and a major reason why so many people don't have a true weapon of a 1st serve, from rec level all the way to ATP level. (unless we are talking about tall people who can aim the flat serve down and have decent consistency)

And what is seriously underrated is spin.

If you look at Sampras and Federer, who are 2 players not extremely tall with the best serve by far for their height, you will notice 1 thing that is common to both, and an anomaly when compared to other similar height players, that their 1st serve has a ton of spin, even the "flat" serve.

Too many people put too much emphasis on speed.

But there are many players on tour who have faster serves than Fed, but their serve is not nearly as much of a weapon.

A flat 105mph serve that you hit inside the service box 3 out of 10 and aim with 1 feet accuracy near the line and have limited angle to work with, is an overrated liability of a serve, compared to a "flat" 90 mph serve with plenty of spin that you can hi inside the service box 7 out of 10 and aim 0.5 feet accuracy near the line and have bigger angles to work with.

Federer and Sampras both knew this, and someone who wants to have a strong 1st serve weapon should also focus on spin, accuracy, placement and consistency rather than pure pace.

;););)
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Heres a little advice from me, a flat serve is useless and a liability unless you are like 6'4+

Of course. Most everyone puts some spin on the so-called "flat" serve. "Flat" was not meant to be taken literally. A first serve -- a relatively flat serve vs a spin second.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Of course. Most everyone puts some spin on the so-called "flat" serve. "Flat" was not meant to be taken literally. A first serve -- a relatively flat serve vs a spin second.

Thats true, however some people put quite alot of spin on their fairly flat serve, while some people just try to hit completely through it and hit it with as little spin as possible.

The 2nd type of people are not doing themselves any favors, putting all emphasis only on speed.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Thats true, however some people put quite alot of spin on their fairly flat serve, while some people just try to hit completely through it and hit it with as little spin as possible.

.

Those guys are probably getting it in 25% or less... Every good 3.5 I know is striving for at least 60% in singles, at least 75% in doubles. which requires significant spin.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
To get the thing if it is new to you, drop the straight arm with a slight and quick bit of boost...and also drop it with a slight angle to the left (for righties. Slight. Continue your launch from ca. trophy in the normal way: Simultaneously drop/throw the tossing arm down still straight, drop the racquet back with a loose arm and shoulder to start its free-swinging loop, vigorously extend the legs. Then, just as the racquet bottoms out, is ready to go under and up....pull the tossing arm in, bent elbow, forearm along the stomach.

The result should be that the momentum transferred from the accelerated straight tossing arm is (upon shortening its lever arm) transferred to the torso, and at a slight angle. This boosts rotation speed of the torso in the horizontal plane, which is a benefit. It also pulls the tossing shoulder forward and down, which is good, because OTBE, that supports hitting shoulder rise.

If a player fails to raise the tossing to (or nearly) vertical, or drops it early, or just lets it flop, or times it wrong, he or she loses most all of the benefits mentioned. The function is directly equivalent to the functions of the off-arm in the topspin forehand.

The key is to keep the tossing arm near vertical just as the racquet begins to "collapse" behind the back (Frame #2). As you mentioned, the knees simultaneously begin to straighten out.

The typical error I notice is that the tossing arm, instead of being ~ vertical at beginning of collapse, has dropped down at beginning of racquet collapse behind the back-- similar to the tossing arm position in Frame #3... Still not sure how much the premature drop of tossing arm will affect the rotation, given that the prematurely dropped arm is still in a tucked in position that is conducive to rotation... On the forehand, if you fail to tuck in the off-arm, and leave it hanging, it will slow the rotation. But in this serve case, you are tucking in the off-arm too early.


HxWJA70.gif
 
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Kevo

Legend
No, I seriously think a flat serve is overrated and a major reason why so many people don't have a true weapon of a 1st serve, from rec level all the way to ATP level. (unless we are talking about tall people who can aim the flat serve down and have decent consistency)

And what is seriously underrated is spin.

If you look at Sampras and Federer, who are 2 players not extremely tall with the best serve by far for their height, you will notice 1 thing that is common to both, and an anomaly when compared to other similar height players, that their 1st serve has a ton of spin, even the "flat" serve.

Too many people put too much emphasis on speed.

But there are many players on tour who have faster serves than Fed, but their serve is not nearly as much of a weapon.

A flat 105mph serve that you hit inside the service box 3 out of 10 and aim with 1 feet accuracy near the line and have limited angle to work with, is an overrated liability of a serve, compared to a "flat" 90 mph serve with plenty of spin that you can hi inside the service box 7 out of 10 and aim 0.5 feet accuracy near the line and have bigger angles to work with.

Federer and Sampras both knew this, and someone who wants to have a strong 1st serve weapon should also focus on spin, accuracy, placement and consistency rather than pure pace.

;););)

A ton of caveats to your previous statement. Most of which I totally agree with. However, flat refers to the trajectory of the serve versus a "spin" serve which is deliberately hit with more arch to enhance the bounce and the effect of the spin. There is no such thing as a serve without spin. Hitting a flat serve properly creates more spin than the typical waiter's tray serve most people use. Second, pretty much all ATP pros have a first serve weapon, it's just a little more difficult to make use of weapons against players that are at your level. Most of them have forehand's that are weapons too, but you don't see them hitting winners all the time with it.

When it comes down to it, the reason people don't have a flat serve weapon is simply because they don't know how to serve properly. The answer is simply learn how to serve. I think anyone can learn how to do it. I've taught plenty of people how to hit "flat" serves. The biggest obstacle is usually an I can't attitude or being too lazy or unwilling to put in some practice time. Most people are creatures of habit. We tend to do what we've done before. Changing that is just difficult for a lot of people psychologically.
 
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