Flattening out the serve

[Ztalin]

I use a continental grip, and I usually put a lot of spin on my serves.

Because of this, I've never really worked on the flat serve. Even when I try to hit through the ball, the angle of the racquet face seems to automaticaly generate spin.

If you really think of it, when in a continental grip, the racquet face is at an angle, which will automatically create spin; at least for me.

How can I flatten out my serve?

 

[golden chicken]

you really need to pronate through the hitting zone.

a good drill to emphasize this is to stick a ball in the fence at your contact point and stand with your front toe touching the bottom of the fence. then, try to hit the ball straight through the fence. you must pronate the racket in order to hit the ball with the strings and not hit the fence with the edge of the racket first.

 

[Rickson]

you really need to pronate through the hitting zone.

a good drill to emphasize this is to stick a ball in the fence at your contact point and stand with your front toe touching the bottom of the fence. then, try to hit the ball straight through the fence. you must pronate the racket in order to hit the ball with the strings and not hit the fence with the edge of the racket first.

Pronating will cause more spin, not less. I tend to pronate a lot and I get a ton of sidespin.

 

[GuyClinch]

Pronating will cause more spin, not less. I tend to pronate a lot and I get a ton of sidespin.

I think the word pronation is what's causing the problem here.I know I get pronation and supination mixed up with regards to serve. You should pronate (move your racquet left to right (like in this Tom Avery video) but not snap forward (supinate) right?

http://www.tomavery.com/video_clips/52859.mov

With regards to the flat serve you should twist your racquet such that it's face is directly behind the ball when you contact it that will ensure it's "flat" right. That's how I think about it when I hit it and it seems to work.


Pete

 

[scotus]

It is not the grip.

The continental grip is still the most dominant grip for a flat serve. Others are right about advising you about pronation. It seems that you have a natural tendency to slice.

 

[kevhen]

Forehand eastern grip or just toss the ball more out in front (and to the right) and extend your arm up more if you want to hit flatter.

 

[tom-selleck]

is the flat serve really "flat" anymore???

and i do NOT mean the fact that every ball has some spin. that point is obvious.

but do the pro's try to minimize spin with flat serve?? or is moderate spin the minimum objective on every serve.... watching roddick and federer, i don't think they hit conventional flat serve anymore.

any thoughts?

 

[Bungalo Bill]

I use a continental grip, and I usually put a lot of spin on my serves.

Because of this, I've never really worked on the flat serve. Even when I try to hit through the ball, the angle of the racquet face seems to automaticaly generate spin.

If you really think of it, when in a continental grip, the racquet face is at an angle, which will automatically create spin; at least for me.

How can I flatten out my serve?

Ztalin,

Please do not purposely pronate your arm. Your arm pronates naturally especially in the continental grip.

For almost any serve, the toss location, your swing path, and your timing needs to coincide to create the effect you want for a particular serve. It will really boil down to practice.

With that said, only a real tall player will want to have a "true" flat serve. Everyone else needs to have some topspin on the ball so they can have some margin over the net and still have it come back down quickly into the service box.

The exercise above to hit a ball through the fence is good unless you dont want to scratch up your racket. If you want to do that, I would suggest getting a racket you dont care too much about.

But really, all this drill is doing is teaching you that:

1. Pronation happens naturally and should never happen forcefully.

2. This drill tells you HOW FAR YOU NEED TO BE FROM THE BALL so your arm can naturally and fully pronate at contact. So you learn about TOSS LOCATION.

3. It teaches you TOSS HEIGHT for your serve.

For a flatter serve, you want to work on the following:

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]1. [/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]Toss the ball farther in front than you would for a slice, topspin or kick serve and farther to your right for right-handed hitters. [/size][/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]2. [/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]Throw your racket out of the "on-the-phone" position (racket rests on shoulder with racket head pointing down behind the shoulder and palm facing the ear), with your palm facing the net at contact with the ball (natural pronation). [/size][/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]3. [/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]Hit the ball with your arm fully extended.[/size][/font]

The serve should be as natural and free flowing as a breaking wave on the beach. You will get tremendous power by allowing energy to be stored and released up to the ball in a synchronized fashion. Relax your shoulder joint and arm completely. It will feel like the shoulder is going to detach from your body as it swings to the ball. Relax your wrist completely and let it go through the ball relaxed. It will also feel like your hand is going to fly off your body as well.

Do not use an Eastern forehand grip. This grip is very hard on the arm! Plus, only players that are at least 6' 4" can really use this grip with a more pure flat serve effectively!

 

[donnyz89]

you are putting spin because you are probably not rotating enough and your racquet isnt ending up by your sides. your serve is prolly more spin because you use a lot of arm. try to using your shoulders more and rotating more into the ball flat on and finish with the racquet by your side.

 

[joe sch]

you really need to pronate through the hitting zone.

a good drill to emphasize this is to stick a ball in the fence at your contact point and stand with your front toe touching the bottom of the fence. then, try to hit the ball straight through the fence. you must pronate the racket in order to hit the ball with the strings and not hit the fence with the edge of the racket first.

This is an excellent exercise for maximizing your toss and service contact along with teaching you the pronated racket head feel. Just do it in slow motion to get the form worked out. As you get comfortable, you can even raise the contact point to your reach on tiptoes and then your reach with your launch (jump) Its also good because it will disable you from going forward (fence) thus just optimizing your reaching hitting ability.

 

[tom-selleck]

my serve improved immeasurably by raising my contact point and getting as high as possible... it seems like this is the absolute key, assuming you make a decent toss.

 

[tom-selleck]

if you want to toss very far forward, is it better to use the eastern forehand???

 

[joe sch]

my serve improved immeasurably by raising my contact point and getting as high as possible... it seems like this is the absolute key, assuming you make a decent toss.

So true !
Make sure your tossing arm straightens out completely overhead and same for hitting arm. This is one of the big service diffs between good open players and lower category players. Flexibility, strenght and the serving form mechanics (windup/followthru) are the other diffs

 

[joe sch]

if you want to toss very far forward, is it better to use the eastern forehand???

Best to experiment but most find continental best for all factors including reaching and spinning capability

 

[Bungalo Bill]

if you want to toss very far forward, is it better to use the eastern forehand???

You do not need to toss very far forward. Your timing is not there yet to do so. You need to practice with the ball tossed about two feet into the court. Let the arm pronate naturally and try and hit the ball dead on. With your upward motion some topspin SHOULD be applied.

Please do not use an Eastern forehand grip! It is not a good serving grip! It is very hard on the arm with its affect not being realized till later after repetition.

Like I said, only tall players (6' 4" and above) can take advantage of such a flat serve from the Eastern forehand grip and be consistent with it. You will get almost the same flat serve through a continental grip if you simply practice your toss location and make contact ON the ball and not to the side.

Let your arm finish naturally.

 

[Ztalin]

I always have a relaxed arm when serving, I'm not going to force a pronation.

I actually think my swing path is at fault, because I usually hit a heavy topspin-slice serve for my first serve (ball tossed deep into the court). I'm just not generating the power that I want since my game has been increasing exponentially. Wish it would stop raining so I could go out and practice... been raining for the last two days, and is going to rain tomorrow and probably the next day.

 

[kevhen]

Eastern forehand grip is not hard on the arm and will allow you to hit very flat if that is what your want, but continental is probably still the way to go for you, but you may need to adjust your toss, more out in front, and your motion with you arm extended up more.

Why do you say eastern forehand is hard on the arm? Do you know any hard hitting eastern forehand servers with arm problems? I know one other hard eastern server around here besides myself who has no problems with it. I have been serving hard eastern for 5 years and he has been for 2 years now. He is 6'3 and I am 6'4". Where is the proof that it causes arm problems with repetition?

 

[shindemac]

That's actually the first serve I want to develop: topspin-slice. For topspin, you want to hit the ball a few inches lower than flat. So you either need to toss the ball higher, or make sure your racket is at full extension on contact. To reduce the slice, either toss the ball more to the left or change your swing path to get right behind the ball. But it looks like your main goal is more power. There's no short cut besides to practice and more practice. Try to serve an hour a few times per week. You really have to work on the mechanics of your motion. Make sure your knees are bent, your arm is loose, full extension at contact, and good shoulder and hip rotation. It won't click after the first session, but after a couple weeks, you should see results.

 

[Ztalin]

I don't like switching grips for different serves. I use continental for everything.

I went to serve for an hour just now (despite the wetness outside), and I was actually very successful.

What helped me most was keeping a relaxed arm throughout the entire motion, and bungalo bill's tip of having the palm facing the net when in the 'talking on the phone' position.

I was hitting harder serves than I ever have. I usually practice serving about 5 times a week, so I hope to develop a fairly powerful serve within the next month or so.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Eastern forehand grip is not hard on the arm and will allow you to hit very flat if that is what your want, but continental is probably still the way to go for you, but you may need to adjust your toss, more out in front, and your motion with you arm extended up more.

Why do you say eastern forehand is hard on the arm? Do you know any hard hitting eastern forehand servers with arm problems? I know one other hard eastern server around here besides myself who has no problems with it. I have been serving hard eastern for 5 years and he has been for 2 years now. He is 6'3 and I am 6'4". Where is the proof that it causes arm problems with repetition?

Kevhen,

Very few players (can count them on one hand) use the Eastern forehand grip at an advanced level. All of them are taller players because the Eastern forehand grip produces a very flat serve. Just from a shear physics point of view, you need to be higher above the net to make contact and have the ball go down, clear the net, and bounce into the service box. I think this would be a good homework assignment for you to look into.

A player can serve with near equal (and many times more) amount of power, generate more spin, and achieve a more consistent first serve with a continental grip then an eastern forehand grip. The Eastern forehand grip is simply a low percentage serving grip unless you are tall! Is this hard for you to see?

Good serving dictates that players should use the Continental grip, in order to faciliate greater ball speed and rotation with less stress on the shoulder, forearm, and wrist.

You should do a study on players shorter then 6' 4" and find out what needs to happen for these players to hit a consistent first serve using this grip. You will find out you will run into a brick wall and find it is simply an irresponsible recommendation on your part when the Continental grip is so much better in many more ways and is clearly the grip of choice for many many players.

Anything that does not allow your arm to move naturally places strain on the arm. Anytime you introduce strain it has the potential to cause arm problems.

There is mcro percentage of players utilizing the grip shorter then 6' 4" so it would be difficult to find out the names of players actually injured from using the grip. I really dont care to find out as the benefits of this grip are so small it is not worth considering.

But you are more than welcome to find out all about the grip in your quest to prove it is a good grip for ALL to use. I would particularly like to hear your arguments on the benefits of using this grip as compared to the continental grip.

Maybe we can get 99.9% of the pro and advanced players to switch! LOL

I dont know of anyone that got injured because their is such a small percentage of players using this grip for their staple serve. I do know of players that use it on a small occasion for a different look on their serve but they do not promote it nor use it as their normal serve. They may use it twice during a match at 40-0 because unless you are tall, it is a low percentage serve.

Your friend is 6' 3"? Gee, I was off by one inch. Why don't you do your own studying about how tall you need to be to utilize this serve on a CONSISTENT basis.

The Eastern forehand grip for the serve is not recommended from a natural rotational movement of the arm and because it is a low percentage serve unless you are at least 6' 4". Period.

Do you finally get it?

 

[kevhen]

I didn't say short people should use eastern forehand if they want to hit hard and flat. Where do you have proof that the eastern forehand grip causes more serving injuries? The service motion is simpler so I think it would likely cause less injuries. It's all in an individuals mechanics and not in a the grip that causes injuries. Just pointing out what I see as an incorrect statement, that the eastern forehand grip will cause injuries from repetition. I have probably hit 100,000 serves using an eastern forehand grip with no injuries. I did have elbow problems when hitting slice serves a few years ago I think using an eastern backhand grip, but it may have been eastern forehand. Eastern forehand for slice is definitely not recommended!

 

[Bungalo Bill]

I didn't say short people should use eastern forehand if they want to hit hard and flat. Where do you have proof that the eastern forehand grip causes more serving injuries? The service motion is simpler so I think it would likely cause less injuries. It's all in an individuals mechanics and not in a the grip that causes injuries. Just pointing out what I see as an incorrect statement, that the eastern forehand grip will cause injuries from repetition. I have probably hit 100,000 serves using an eastern forehand grip with no injuries. I did have elbow problems when hitting slice serves a few years ago I think using an eastern backhand grip, but it may have been eastern forehand. Eastern forehand for slice is definitely not recommended!

Kevhen,

Your recommendations are incorrect. Because you promote the Eastern forehand serve without taking into consideration its popularity and whether or not this grip is even feasible for the poster! The continental grip is the grip of choice because it is a grip ALL players can use and achieve a CONSISTENT serve!

As far as proof on who particular got injured I said above I dont know of any names. I can count on one hand how many players I have seen use this grip in an advanced capactiy which is a level with a much faster swing speed. At a high speed the continental grip is the grip to know given the fact the arm moves naturally and therefore RELAXED through the serve motion! None of the players I know use your grip as their staple grip. Most of them simply no better. Also, none of them think the grip promotes a consistent serve and the bring it out to serve something different usually when the score is 40-0.

It is clear that the eastern forehand grip at a high speed level DOES produce strain on the shoulder and arm. I really dont need to find out any medical conclusions as I have tried to use it myself with not much success in NOT feeling some strain on the arm.

I am not saying the grip can't be used. I am just saying when you decide to "play coach" - I will be the one saying BUYER BEWARE!

IT IS A LOUSEY GRIP TO RECOMMEND BECAUSE IT IS A LOW PERCENTAGE SERVE AND IT IS DIFFICULT IT TO HAVE ANY CONSISTENCY WITH THIS GRIP AT HIGH SPEEDS UNLESS YOU ARE VERY TALL.

EXTRA STRAIN + INCONSISTENCY= LOUSEY ADVICE

Do you get it finally?

 

[kevhen]

Also how do you know it causes injuries when only beginners and tall guys use this basic beginner type grip? I have never seen or heard anyone injuried from it.

 

[kevhen]

I am not promoting it, only saying I don't believe it causes injuries.

 

[Ztalin]

I actually have a friend that serves with an eastern forehand grip, and refuses to switch to a continental. All he does are flat serves with about a 20% success rate (not exaggerated). And he dinks his second serves over the net.

 

[kevhen]

With a eastern forehand grip, all energy is going into moving the ball forward with no energy going toward spin, so it's easier to hit a fast ball with less arm strain. You can even slow the motion down and still hit a fairly fast ball if you are worried about shoulder strain. It's always good to warm up slowly when serving using any grip.

It may be a low percentage serve for you. For many beginners it helps them get the ball in play. For tall guys it allows us to hit the ball very hard (and gain that little advantage we all are looking for).

If I hit with continental I lose about 5-10mph off my serve and a little bit of control as well. With more practice my control might increase as well as my serve percentage, but I doubt I will be able to ever hit the ball as hard. I have my slice serve with eastern backhand grip for when I want a high percentage to go in. But otherwise I will hit the flat with eastern forehand when I want to blow the older, slower reflex guys off the court with the 110-115 mph serves.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Also how do you know it causes injuries when only beginners and tall guys use this basic beginner type grip? I have never seen or heard anyone injuried from it.

At the beginner level not many will be injured because most of them are pushing the ball. There swing speed is very slow and they are mainly concerned in pushing the ball up over the net and letting the slow speed and gravity bring the ball down into play. Not much chance of injury there.

But for these beginners which most of them women, children, and guys that are under 6' 4" are doomed to develop a consistent serve at higher speeds.

The Continental is the way to go even if a beginner struggles with it. On a last resort basis, if the beginner is just not getting the continental with reasonable attempts, then I will have them hit the Eastern forehand to simply let them enjoy the game.

 

[kevhen]

Yes, that is good. That is the way to teach beginners, using the continental. I do not teach but encourage continental to beginners and will show and explain it to them but will not force it since I am just an observer and not an instructor.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

I actually have a friend that serves with an eastern forehand grip, and refuses to switch to a continental. All he does are flat serves with about a 20% success rate (not exaggerated). And he dinks his second serves over the net.

Isn't that great? Twenty percent? Then pushes his second serve with the same grip! LOL

What a crappy grip to have any chance of having a consistent first serve.

Most Eastern forehand servers are stubborn about changing because they like that flat feel against the ball and how fast the ball "appears" to go - even if the ball flys into the next county or blasts gopher holes in the ground they will fight tooth and nail to keep their grip and will always point out the micro-percentage of players actually SUCCESSFUL using this grip at advanced serving speeds.

It is a crappy grip.

 

[kevhen]

It's a crappy grip for most people, but still useful and injury-free for some.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Eastern forehand grip is not hard on the arm.

I guess I can reverse the question to you. Do you have any proof that it does not cause arm strain, injury or no injury? Almost all research conducted says you are wrong. Can you prove it doesn't?

Please do not compute beginners in your analysis. Use only advanced servers with high arm speeds.

 

[kevhen]

No body uses it so where do we get any research? Becker used something similar with a sort of continental-eastern forehand grip. Did he have arm problems? I have hit hard for about 5 years now (50,000-100,000 flat serves in that time) with no problems, only shoulder soreness during warmups if I try to hit too hard too soon but no long-term problems, no wrist problems, no elbow problems, nothing. It's poor mechanics that cause injuries, not grips.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

No body uses it so where do we get any research? Becker used something similar with a sort of continental-eastern forehand grip. Did he have arm problems? I have hit hard for about 5 years now (50,000-100,000 flat serves in that time) with no problems, only shoulder soreness during warmups if I try to hit too hard too soon but no long-term problems, no wrist problems, no elbow problems, nothing. It's poor mechanics that cause injuries, not grips.

Poor mechanics may or may not cause injuries. But so does using incorrect grips. It is not a good grip. It puts the arm in a strenuous position even of you dont get injured. It is not a good grip.

INCONSISTENCY + ARM STRAIN = POOR ADVICE (with or without injuries)

 

[Ztalin]

Isn't that great? Twenty percent? Then pushes his second serve with the same grip! LOL

What a crappy grip to have any chance of having a consistent first serve.

Most Eastern forehand servers are stubborn about changing because they like that flat feel against the ball and how fast the ball "appears" to go - even if the ball flys into the next county or blasts gopher holes in the ground they will fight tooth and nail to keep their grip and will always point out the micro-percentage of players actually SUCCESSFUL using this grip at advanced serving speeds.

It is a crappy grip.

He refuses to change anything. 3 years ago when we both started he was much better than I was.

But over the time I got better and he didn't. I developed a two-handed backhand, and he is still seen slicing every backhand shot back. He even refuses to give up his eastern forehand grip on groundstrokes because that's what he feels most comfortable with. He's unwilling to take a step backward in order to take 5 steps forward.

He used to mock how slow my serves were when I switched from eastern forehand to continental grip, but now I have a very strong kick serve and he still pushes his second serves.

Even after seeing how much I improve every month he still has the same crappy strokes. One time he asked me how the pros hit so hard and keep the ball in, and I told him that he use different grips than him to generate more spin; and if I remember correctly he said "that doesn't make sense". Oh well.

But yeah I know what you mean. I know someone that serves pretty effectively with an eastern forehand grip, but he's 6'6". My stubborn friend with the 20% serve is 5'7". Neither of them have had any injuries, but they are more or less recreational players and don't play as fanatically as I do.

 

[tennis4losers]

:mrgreen: Noooooo Spin Is Better Gawwwwd.

 

[golden chicken]

The exercise above to hit a ball through the fence is good unless you dont want to scratch up your racket. If you want to do that, I would suggest getting a racket you dont care too much about.

But really, all this drill is doing is teaching you that:

1. Pronation happens naturally and should never happen forcefully.

2. This drill tells you HOW FAR YOU NEED TO BE FROM THE BALL so your arm can naturally and fully pronate at contact. So you learn about TOSS LOCATION.

3. It teaches you TOSS HEIGHT for your serve.

For a flatter serve, you want to work on the following:

1. Toss the ball farther in front than you would for a slice, topspin or kick serve and farther to your right for right-handed hitters.

2. Throw your racket out of the "on-the-phone" position (racket rests on shoulder with racket head pointing down behind the shoulder and palm facing the ear), with your palm facing the net at contact with the ball (natural pronation).

3. Hit the ball with your arm fully extended.

Bungalo Bill,

my #1 and your #2 are essentially the same, we just focused on different parts of the service motion. you've got him focused on the (for ease of typing, not technical accuracy) "backscratch," whereas i've got him focused on contact. you're right that pronation should not happen consciously, but neither should "backscratch."

my #2 and your #1 are the same. you're right that you need to have the correct TOSS LOCATION

my #3 is the same as your #3. you're right that you must TOSS to a "fully extended" HEIGHT

i assumed from his original post that his mechanics up until the point of contact are essentially sound and that all he needs to do is learn how to GUIDE his natural arm movements (including pronation) so that his racket will contact the ball square and with forward motion only--this leads to a so-called "flat" serve.

now, as others have pointed out, generally you can't effectively hit a perfectly flat serve (meaning with no spin) no matter what the grip.

a serve is basically a combination of two arm movements.

1. extension--this is when the racket goes in an arc from looking like: d
behind you to looking like: P at contact (an edge-on swing towards the side fence)

2. pronation-- this is what we call the rotation of your hand/wrist as you turn your palm from facing up to facing down. your thumb should trace a small arc from your right to your left (for righty). if you were to hold your racket, the tip would arc around the butt/your hand/wrist

how you combine these two movements defines what kind of spin you get on the serve.

if you #1 extend upwards and hit the ball before you #2 pronate, you will get a topspin serve. you must continue and pronate after you've hit the ball to avoid hyperextending your elbow.

if you #1 extend upwards, then outwards (towards the side fence) then #2 pronate, then hit the ball, you will end up with a slice serve

if you #1 extend upwards, then #2 pronate, then hit the ball, then continue extending outwards you'll get your flat serve.

again, using the "hit the ball through the fence drill" you must hit the ball straight through the fence 1. with the strings only, and the racket flat against the fence and 2. you must not be brushing past the back of the ball in any direction (no topspin, no slice)

btw, you don't have to kill the ball or the fence. as was mentioned, you can do it slow so you don't hurt your racket. don't try to hit the ball through the fence, just try to make contact within those last two parameters

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Bungalo Bill,

my #1 and your #2 are essentially the same, we just focused on different parts of the service motion. you've got him focused on the (for ease of typing, not technical accuracy) "backscratch," whereas i've got him focused on contact. you're right that pronation should not happen consciously, but neither should "backscratch."

I don't teach backscratch either. I dont believe in the backscratch and believe the serve is one continuous motion. When it comes to the fence drill the main purpose is to feel how pronation happens naturally. The racket can either be used with the abbreviated motion serve, the full motion serve, or to just simply show how the arm works.

i assumed from his original post that his mechanics up until the point of contact are essentially sound and that all he needs to do is learn how to GUIDE his natural arm movements (including pronation) so that his racket will contact the ball square and with forward motion only--this leads to a so-called "flat" serve.

Yes, agreed. The fence drill will reinforce, in a slower kind of way, how the arm works and teach the brain which muscles to fire to create the same movement in fast motion. It also refenroces where to contact the ball for a flat serve.

now, as others have pointed out, generally you can't effectively hit a perfectly flat serve (meaning with no spin) no matter what the grip.

Very difficult to hit a pure flat serve and consistently have it pay off. Like I have mentioned only players that are at least 6' 4" can effectively do this.

a serve is basically a combination of two arm movements.

1. extension--this is when the racket goes in an arc from looking like: d
behind you to looking like: P at contact (an edge-on swing towards the side fence)

Yes, but the drop or as you show "d" is behind the hitting shoulder and not the back as most people think. That is why if I just have them rest the racket on the shoulder with palm facing their head, I am only emphasizing how the arm pronates. I am not emphasizing the flexibility the arm needs to allow the racquet to fall behind the shoulder for acceleration.

2. pronation-- this is what we call the rotation of your hand/wrist as you turn your palm from facing up to facing down. your thumb should trace a small arc from your right to your left (for righty). if you were to hold your racket, the tip would arc around the butt/your hand/wrist

how you combine these two movements defines what kind of spin you get on the serve.

if you #1 extend upwards and hit the ball before you #2 pronate, you will get a topspin serve. you must continue and pronate after you've hit the ball to avoid hyperextending your elbow.

if you #1 extend upwards, then outwards (towards the side fence) then #2 pronate, then hit the ball, you will end up with a slice serve

if you #1 extend upwards, then #2 pronate, then hit the ball, then continue extending outwards you'll get your flat serve.

again, using the "hit the ball through the fence drill" you must hit the ball straight through the fence 1. with the strings only, and the racket flat against the fence and 2. you must not be brushing past the back of the ball in any direction (no topspin, no slice)

I see where you are heading. I guess you teach pronation more then I would get into. I come at it from the stand point that pronation will happen naturally. It is not a major focus of mine.

My most important job is to help them get the right toss (location and height), implement the correct swing path direction, and hit the ball in the right spot to generate the serve they are trying to do. Pronation happens so fast that I concentrate on just letting pronation happen naturally based on the type of serve they are executing.

If they have trouble "getting it" or "allowing it", I will use the fence drill and/or the ball on the string drill to emphasize natural movement and fluidity.

btw, you don't have to kill the ball or the fence. as was mentioned, you can do it slow so you don't hurt your racket. don't try to hit the ball through the fence, just try to make contact within those last two parameters

Yes, I know. I use the fence drill to simply illustrate how the arm works and that they can trust this happening while focusing on the areas I mentioned above.

 

[golden chicken]

haha, Bungalo Bill, i'm sorry the last few bits of my post were intended for Ztalin, not you. only the part addressing your comments was intended specifically for you.

in retrospect, isn't it interesting that different emphases/approaches lead to similar results? different strokes for different folks

 

[Bungalo Bill]

...isn't it interesting that different emphases/approaches lead to similar results? different strokes for different folks

Yes, which is why I have a problem with Wagners comments about "the rest of us".

I am from the "go natural" camp. LOL

I guess I get this from my surfing skills. Surfing is a sport of fluidiity and flow and that is how I approach the serve. The last thing I would want is to get someone thinking about how their "legs" should work as they are dropping in on the biggest wave they have ever surfed.

You just see the line you want and go while letting go. That old saying "he who hesitates is lost" in my own teaching ways applies to the serve.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

...isn't it interesting that different emphases/approaches lead to similar results? different strokes for different folks

Yes, which is why I have a problem with Wagners comments about "the rest of us".

I am from the "go natural" camp. LOL

I guess I get this from my surfing skills. Surfing is a sport of fluidiity and flow and that is how I approach the serve. The last thing I would want is to get someone thinking about how their "legs" should work as they are dropping in on the biggest wave they have ever surfed.

You just see the line you want and go while letting go. That old saying "he who hesitates is lost" in my own teaching ways applies to the serve. Anyway, I know where you are coming from and there is nothing wrong with it. Every coach sees things from a different angle.

 

[GuyClinch]

if you #1 extend upwards and hit the ball before you #2 pronate, you will get a topspin serve. you must continue and pronate after you've hit the ball to avoid hyperextending your elbow.

if you #1 extend upwards, then outwards (towards the side fence) then #2 pronate, then hit the ball, you will end up with a slice serve

if you #1 extend upwards, then #2 pronate, then hit the ball, then continue extending outwards you'll get your flat serve.

again, using the "hit the ball through the fence drill" you must hit the ball straight through the fence 1. with the strings only, and the racket flat against the fence and 2. you must not be brushing past the back of the ball in any direction (no topspin, no slice)

Do you really pronate that much on your slice serve with your thumbs pointing to the ground? I swear it feels like I don't pronate at all on my slice. You just kinda swing across the ball and finish on the right. I don't quite understand how pronating would add to the slice. I mean you have to pronate a LITTLE so the racquet is more square with the ball though stil feels kinda like it's more like / this then this --

On the kick serve really aggressively pronating helps. I had a pro teaching me that serve today and he encouraged me to pronate while tossing the ball more above my head and changing the swing path to be more straight through the ball. It feels REALLY weird but seems to work. I can't imagine anyone would "naturally" hit the ball like that.

Maybe I am hitting all my serves wrong and I need to pronate like on my kick serve all the time. I am not trying to argue with any pros. I am a beginning type player.

Pete

 

[andreh]

Why don't we just put a sticky thread urging everyone and new users to ignore kevhen's advice about using E F for serves? Let's just face it. The man is so stubborn he's never going to concede the point. Not even if Vic Braden himself told him. No offense, kevhen, but you're simply wrong about the E F grip for serves.

 

[kevhen]

Dude, I am just saying that the EF serve doesn't cause injuries from my experience and from the other guys I have seen who use it. I am not recommending it for others to use. That is all I have been saying all along but BB says it causes injuries and I am just pointing out that is not a proven fact.

 

[x Southpaw x]

Dude, I am just saying that the EF serve doesn't cause injuries from my experience and from the other guys I have seen who use it. I am not recommending it for others to use. That is all I have been saying all along but BB says it causes injuries and I am just pointing out that is not a proven fact.

Eastern-forehand grip for serve... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Welcome to the Dink-2nd-Serve-Club!

You wanna know how it causes injuries? Let's see your options.
1) If you use the proper, optimum-results, service motion... your natural wrist snap will turn your wrist into a bloody debris.
2) If you don't use the optimum service motion, that means you have to lock your wrist as though it is frozen in ice, and you have to generate all your power from the other arm and shoulder muscles. Meaning, Strain on those muscles! Remember that the wrist contributes to 30% of the power of an optimum serve. So if you have strain on those other muscles, I hope you have been weight-training, otherwise you might end up with tennis-elbow or worse. =(

And please don't even suggest semi-western forehand grip or western forehand grip for serve... for the learners' sakes.

 

[kevhen]

You wouldn't laugh if you were on the returning side. Whatever works and doesn't cause injuries for you all....

 

[x Southpaw x]

Why don't we just put a sticky thread urging everyone and new users to ignore kevhen's advice about using E F for serves? Let's just face it. The man is so stubborn he's never going to concede the point. Not even if Vic Braden himself told him. No offense, kevhen, but you're simply wrong about the E F grip for serves.

Haha andreh... I think I agree with you now.

I went to search, dug up one of the recent NTRP self-declarating polls... kevhen thinks he's in the 3.0-4.0 range. =P I think... I don't have to say much about this anymore =X