Flaws with Federer forehand technique

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star_of_death80

New User
Hey people,

I'm not starting this thread to bash Federer on his Federer forehand technique.
I do love watching the guy play. One of the reasons why he is so successful is he is probably has the best footwork preparation on his forehand in how he moves and hits in all the possible stances possible.

My questions is to ask tennis-wise, what you see the flaw in his forehand technique is, cause my coach and I have discussed of where Federer's forehand goes wrong. Our discussion has been in relation to his swing-line, and the finish on the follow through and that he is wristy with the finish.

We discussed things if my coach were to fix him up which wouldn't be too hard is either he plays is changes his grip to play more like a true semi-western forehand or change his swing-line to play more like a true eastern forehand to match his grip. Basically its either change the swing to match the grip or change the grip to match the swing. LOL

So what do u guys think is technically flawed?
 
This raises an interesting point, several pro's have aspects of their shots that are not text book, but because they are pro's - we cannot call them errors or mistakes. They are individualities.

If a hacker does the same things we can call them mistakes, but are they? really?
 
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Yes, Federer has an average 3.5 forehand. Its perfect, hance the slams and career, he is getting older, thats life not technique
 
LOL. Of course my coach and I are always gonna work on my flaws.

I'm just asking as a tennis purist. True that he has won 16 grand slams and there is no dispute.

So I'm interested in technical discussions, as I consider myself a person who loves their tennis and is a student of the game.
As a student of the game I like learning about the technical aspects and I like to hear people's technical aspects.
Usually the textbook techniques are usually the ones which can replicated to similar success. I know those that are unique (obviously Fed I know)are just blessed with either timing or strength or something else all together. LOL

I don't want to hear response about oh Fed knows what he is doing blah blah. I just want to hear discussions on technique, just tennis talk about technique not the achievements or stuff like otherwise I would post elsewhere.
 
I try to emulate Fed's forehand at times (its not working to well :oops:)
and the "wrist motion" is just pronation over the ball.

I think its the most effecient way of creating topspin. Pronating over the ball just produces so much topspin with ease. (And with a 90sq in 18x20 stringbed, topspin isnt too fun :D)

Try it out sometime. However I still havent discovered how to hit hard and pronate at the same time. I find it difficult and irregular but itll come in time.

So imo Fed pronates over the ball to create his massive topspin. Thats all I've got about his forehand so far.
 
Kunohara said:
I think it's safe to say, after 16 GS titles, that he knows what he's doing.
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Maybe the "textbook" that you and your coach are using has to be revised. That's always happened through out the history of tennis instruction. Back in the 70s, it was considered incorrect FH form to have an open stance, an across the body follow through, and forearm pronation. Now it is standard fare across the game, because the game has evolved and we've learned how to use all those elements to produce an efficient stroke.
 
star_of_death80 said:
I don't want to hear response about oh Fed knows what he is doing blah blah. I just want to hear discussions on technique, just tennis talk about technique not the achievements or stuff like otherwise I would post elsewhere.
Click to expand...

there really are no "flaws" in his technique, unless you and/or your coach are comparing it to a say double bend FH, or a more classical FH stroke as those taught pre 1980's.

His technique is sound and perfect. Does this mean he always hits perfect shots?? Of course not. However, as a FH, his technique along with his great footwork is outstanding.
 
drakulie said:
Uhmmmm you and your coach should spend more time on the flaws in your technique.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

This is the post of the month! :)

Anyways if I seriously found a tennis instructional textbook that upon reading led me to the belief that Fed's forehand is flawed, then I'd have no choice but to burn it. If I had a coach tell me the same, then I'd have to burn him.
 
My coach is not into old school stuff or anything. If anything he is pretty much modern as you can get. My coach is still learning all the time which I am glad he is doing.

The thing that makes Feds forehand great is the footwork that he has going with it. Of course his technique has served him well all this time.
I know every player is has bad days hitting the ball either due to technique or bad footwork or mental.

Sometimes players are hitting great is due to mental stability on the day or timing or whatever and it masks their weakness.
Fed has probably has those moments in his peak where he was able to rely it on again and again. Its that good footwork I think has made his forehand great and cover up some of the flaws he has.

I know some players strokes are almost perfect and they wont always hit perfect shots but Feds forehand has some flaws in it.
 
star_of_death80 said:
I'm just asking as a tennis purist. True that he has won 16 grand slams and there is no dispute.
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AND everyone with an IQ north of Forrest Gump knew that his FH was the most lethal stroke on the ATP tour during that 4 year stretch when he won 3 out of 4 majors 3 times...

Quit while you're behind. Please. You seem like a decent person, not one of the 12 yr olds who've taken over the General Pro board with their 'Rafa can bring about World Peace' threads...
 
I don't see any flaws. His shot isn't wristy, it is the forearm rapidly pronating. Try to rotate just your wrist.....yeah, you can't. It is all forearm baby. His swing path works with this pronation to create massive spin with an eastern fh. He has a beautiful fh. It can go awry at times though. I think that has more to do with his insane racquet head speed being too much for for a 90sp in racquet head. For flaws we can always break down Murray, Venus, Gasquet, Wozniaki, etc... There are some pretty bad fhs out there on the tours. They would smoke us but by pro standards, not good.
 
I have been watching tennis the last few years and I have seen lots of Federer.
I know his forehand is a lethal shot especially during his dominant years.
I'm not out to bash anyone. I have a favourite player and I'm willing to admit there are flaws in their particular strokes which I like about them.
Again I'm not out to flame anyone or anything.

Cause we are all students of the game and I'm just trying to find constructive criticism in any shots of the game, even the great shots. It's like I don't like watching Nadal's game but I can see his forehand has less mechanical and technichal issues compared to Fed but I like watching Fed more still.
 
star_of_death80 said:
Hey people,

I'm not starting this thread to bash Federer on his Federer forehand technique.
I do love watching the guy play. One of the reasons why he is so successful is he is probably has the best footwork preparation on his forehand in how he moves and hits in all the possible stances possible.

My questions is to ask tennis-wise, what you see the flaw in his forehand technique is, cause my coach and I have discussed of where Federer's forehand goes wrong. Our discussion has been in relation to his swing-line, and the finish on the follow through and that he is wristy with the finish.

We discussed things if my coach were to fix him up which wouldn't be too hard is either he plays is changes his grip to play more like a true semi-western forehand or change his swing-line to play more like a true eastern forehand to match his grip. Basically its either change the swing to match the grip or change the grip to match the swing. LOL

So what do u guys think is technically flawed?
Click to expand...

i believe that fed's FH is flawed in that he likes to hit it close to the middle of the racquet. I think that his shot would be untouchable if he were to involve the frame more to impart more unpredictable spin into the ball.
 
Its a reach at best to call out one of the GOATs with 16 Slams and say that he has a "flaws" with his forehand technique. I would say his victims over the past decade would not agree.
I would give a reputable teaching pro or a professional coach some slack with their opinions.
There's not 1 "perfect" forehand. The goal is to improve on what you already have.
If you play golf, it is no different than searching for the "perfect" golf swing, which no one has.
His execution may be "flawed" at times but his mechanics and footwork is supreme.
 
I believe your coach is wrong, however he is in good company. Not many people have taken the time to study Fed's stroke, and it seems to conflict with conventional strokes, so there are a lot of misconceptions about it.


star_of_death80 said:
either he plays is changes his grip to play more like a true semi-western forehand or change his swing-line to play more like a true eastern forehand to match his grip. Basically its either change the swing to match the grip or change the grip to match the swing.
Click to expand...

Contrary to many people's opinion, and that one cute youtube video, Fed does not use an Eastern grip (at least not the same kind that textbooks or beginner's coaches teach).

The way to get Fed's grip is to hold your racket in a normal SW grip. Then take your index finger and put it somewhere behind the grip, like along bevel 4 and 5. Then pull the racket head down slightly so that it lays a little more diagonal in your hand and a little less straight across. You will see that your index knuckle is around bevel 3 or maybe 3.5 (which is a marker point for "Eastern"). If your racket grip were smaller than the standard recommended side (as Federer uses), your index knuckle should be even more towards bevel 3.

Your heel pad should be on bevel 4 or 3.5.

This is Fed's grip, and it is more of a variation of the SW grip than it is a variation of the Eastern. This is because if you started with a standard Eastern then moved your index finger to the backside, your knuckle would move up to a weak-Eastern position (towards the continental direction).

However, I think the Fed grip is only one small part of his stroke.

What makes his stroke unusual is his arm is mostly straight when he contacts the ball. There are two other male players who hit the ball this way. One of them is Nadal.

Coincidence? Should we conclude both Fed and Nadal have flawed strokes? It is more reasonable to conclude they are both doing something correct, and we could have much to learn from them.


star_of_death80 said:
One of the reasons why he is so successful is he is probably has the best footwork preparation on his forehand in how he moves and hits in all the possible stances possible.
Click to expand...

Footwork and a serve is not enough to explain the success of Fed.

Maybe this is a trick by your coach to get your to run harder ;)

If Fed didn't have his particular forehand, he would probably have less than half his slam count. Fewer Wimbledons for sure. He would still be a great player. Not a GOAT though.


star_of_death80 said:
and that he is wristy with the finish.
Click to expand...

He is less wristy than he seems. On a typical Fed rally shot, he contacts the ball right before his wrist breaks, or perhaps a hair after.

What we're seeing is Fed generating a lot of racket speed, and, after contact, the inertia of the head will pull his wrist around as a consequence.

I've been learning the Fed forehand, and, for now at least, I'm not breaking the wrist until after contact. And I'm still generating more pace than with my old forehand. But it still looks wristy.

The point is that you can use the Fed stroke without having to be wristy.


star_of_death80 said:
I know some players strokes are almost perfect and they won't always hit perfect shots but Feds forehand has some flaws in it.
Click to expand...

All the parts of Fed's stroke serve a purpose, and they all interconnect in vital ways. If some coach were to come in and tinker with one part, the whole stroke would fall apart.


I've already written a ton on this forehand:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=333437
 
OK...So in support of the OP's concerns, I'd like to know what you all think the technical issues are when Fed's FH does go off. Movement issues alone don't explain why Fed can almost find the backstop on neutral rally shots surprisingly often as of late. I also don't buy that his margins are too thin and that he's a feast or famine type player, because he has never been that guy. He's no Gonzo. You used to be able to take Fed's FH to the bank - it was obviously lethal, but also reliable. What's gone wrong here?
 
star_of_death80 said:
Hey people,

I'm not starting this thread to bash Federer on his Federer forehand technique.
I do love watching the guy play. One of the reasons why he is so successful is he is probably has the best footwork preparation on his forehand in how he moves and hits in all the possible stances possible.

My questions is to ask tennis-wise, what you see the flaw in his forehand technique is, cause my coach and I have discussed of where Federer's forehand goes wrong. Our discussion has been in relation to his swing-line, and the finish on the follow through and that he is wristy with the finish.

We discussed things if my coach were to fix him up which wouldn't be too hard is either he plays is changes his grip to play more like a true semi-western forehand or change his swing-line to play more like a true eastern forehand to match his grip. Basically its either change the swing to match the grip or change the grip to match the swing. LOL

So what do u guys think is technically flawed?
Click to expand...

What you and your coach think are flaws are most likely the technical differences/innovations that have allowed his forehand to become the greatest shot of all time. Yes, it's wristy, but as numerous experts on this board have explained, the wristiness allows for the "slingshot" mechanics that generate additional racquet head speed for a given effort level.

This dynamic allows Federer to hit with pace and heavy spin with a very short backswing, something most players, including you and your coach, simply cannot do.

Imagine standing close to the baseline, being able to fire your racquet head at 90 mph almost immediately after you load your right leg. Your stroke is almost unreadable, just like your serve, robbing your opponent of time. Without being able to anticipate the shot, he's now scrambling for his backhand corner, running down a 90 mph, 2700 rpm topspin drive. Pushed back? Forced into an error? We all know what happens - blown off the court.

16 grand slams; and in my opinion it's the low-effort/high-effect aspect of his forehand that allows him to play at a high level with such apparent ease. He rarely gets tired, even in long matches, while players with more conventional double-bend forehands are grunting, efforting and sweating to defeat.

It seems pretty cheeky for some player and coach to sit around and criticize the greatest tennis stroke of all time. Has your coach noticed that many top pros, on both sides of the ball, are incorporating some of Federer's technical "flaws" into their techniques - to excellent effect?

Perhaps the fact that Federer has failed to reach two consecutive grand slam finals has emboldened your critique. But please note that the guy who will likely replace him, Rafael Nadal, has extremely similar technique. In fact, though their swings are not identical, Rafa and Roger's forehands are more similar to each other than either are to any other pro's. This is not by accident.

I think most experts consider Federer's forehand technique an evolution. Some feel that it can't be copied, while others (including Nadal) feel that it's the stroke of the future.
 
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Think about it like this: the majority of people criticized Borg's 2 handed backhand when he brought it to the main stage, say it's wrong, not in the text book, all that stuff... and look where we are now

If something does not fit the current standard, doesn't mean there's something wrong with it. And textbooks are always outdated anyway.

Giving your thread this title is asking to be bullied... You could have instead focused on what people normally do wrong when they try to emulate it, or what happens when it is off.
 
gopokes said:
OK...So in support of the OP's concerns, I'd like to know what you all think the technical issues are when Fed's FH does go off. Movement issues alone don't explain why Fed can almost find the backstop on neutral rally shots surprisingly often as of late. I also don't buy that his margins are too thin and that he's a feast or famine type player, because he has never been that guy. He's no Gonzo. You used to be able to take Fed's FH to the bank - it was obviously lethal, but also reliable. What's gone wrong here?
Click to expand...


I haven't watched a lot of his matches where this has happened. Are there any notorious matches in particular?

The Berdych match one I'm willing to attribute to his Fed's self-reported injury. But what about other matches?
 
BevelDevil said:
I haven't watched a lot of his matches where this has happened. Are there any notorious matches in particular?

The Berdych match one I'm willing to attribute to his Fed's self-reported injury. But what about other matches?
Click to expand...

How about the match where Fed smashed his racquet after he sent yet another forehand straight into the net?

Should be easy to find.
 
gopokes said:
OK...So in support of the OP's concerns, I'd like to know what you all think the technical issues are when Fed's FH does go off. Movement issues alone don't explain why Fed can almost find the backstop on neutral rally shots surprisingly often as of late. I also don't buy that his margins are too thin and that he's a feast or famine type player, because he has never been that guy. He's no Gonzo. You used to be able to take Fed's FH to the bank - it was obviously lethal, but also reliable. What's gone wrong here?
Click to expand...

Are you and other guys so blind as to not see that the sport played at pro level is mainly a contest in physical and mental strength?

Fed and any other pros do not have technique flaws, let alone the most common stroke, that are worth talking about, but everyone has a limit in strength. Notice that the longer Fed plays the crappier he gets. Also, another no brainer evidence is that most first sets are pretty tight, 6-4, 7-5 so on while the subsequence sets are usually lopsided.

I thought it's obvious that every player needs to run like mad, and the one who could run less and get to the ball more would eventually win out.


How would your perfect techniques hold up after 3-5 hrs of playing at top energy, every other day, weeks after weeks?
 
user92626 said:
How would your perfect techniques hold up after 3-5 hrs of playing at top energy, every other day, weeks after weeks?
Click to expand...


Excellent point, I think about this often, which is why i think i would struggle to get past the semis at a GS, my fitness is just not quite there for the elite level in the latter stages of a GS.
 
Here's something to look out for:

Perhaps he's taking his eyes/head off the ball sooner than he has in the past. Whether this is the cause or the effect of his difficulties is an open question.

My evidence is very anecdotal, since I don't have forever to watch Fed videos :)

In any case, I compared a 2004 vid (vs. Agassi) with the 2009 vid where he plays terrible against Djokovic (and smashes his racket).

It seems like he pulls his head off the ball sooner. Against Agassi, his head is still frozen when the racket reaches around his body on follow through. Whereas vs. Joker I caught him a few times with his head up as his racket is about halfway done with follow through.

(In both cases his head was on the ball at contact. Note sure about eyes.)

I suppose this could be due to a slower swing in the later cases. Or this could just be a small sample.

And, even if we establish he is looking up sooner on bad days, it could just be a symptom of something else.

In any case, it's something to look out for.


If you guys decide to do some "research" on your own, I'd love to hear/see the results.


nomie said:
How about the match where Fed smashed his racquet after he sent yet another forehand straight into the net?
Click to expand...

Thanks. Didn't think I'd ever see him do that.
 
star_of_death80 said:
Hey people,

I'm not starting this thread to bash Federer on his Federer forehand technique.
I do love watching the guy play. One of the reasons why he is so successful is he is probably has the best footwork preparation on his forehand in how he moves and hits in all the possible stances possible.

My questions is to ask tennis-wise, what you see the flaw in his forehand technique is, cause my coach and I have discussed of where Federer's forehand goes wrong. Our discussion has been in relation to his swing-line, and the finish on the follow through and that he is wristy with the finish.

We discussed things if my coach were to fix him up which wouldn't be too hard is either he plays is changes his grip to play more like a true semi-western forehand or change his swing-line to play more like a true eastern forehand to match his grip. Basically its either change the swing to match the grip or change the grip to match the swing. LOL

So what do u guys think is technically flawed?
Click to expand...

drakulie said:
Uhmmmm you and your coach should spend more time on the flaws in your technique.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Kunohara said:
I think it's safe to say, after 16 GS titles, that he knows what he's doing.
Click to expand...


Just a silly question...and the answers above are spot on!
Over analyze someone elses game and that's why you'll stink on court
 
user92626 said:
Are you and other guys so blind as to not see that the sport played at pro level is mainly a contest in physical and mental strength?

Fed and any other pros do not have technique flaws, let alone the most common stroke, that are worth talking about, but everyone has a limit in strength. Notice that the longer Fed plays the crappier he gets. Also, another no brainer evidence is that most first sets are pretty tight, 6-4, 7-5 so on while the subsequence sets are usually lopsided.

I thought it's obvious that every player needs to run like mad, and the one who could run less and get to the ball more would eventually win out.


How would your perfect techniques hold up after 3-5 hrs of playing at top energy, every other day, weeks after weeks?
Click to expand...


So... your position is that Fed's occasional FH woes are a fitness issue? Obviously the game is heavily predicated upon physical and mental strength. This has always been true, but Fed clearly struggles more with his consistency currently than he did previously. If you don't agree with that statement, then we have little to discuss. I happen to think that he's got some technical issues that are magnified by nerves, lack of confidence, etc. that weren't a part of his game previously. I should add that my own pefect technique breaks down after 15 minutes - that is obviously not the issue here. :)
 
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ProgressoR said:
Excellent point, I think about this often, which is why i think i would struggle to get past the semis at a GS, my fitness is just not quite there for the elite level in the latter stages of a GS.
Click to expand...

Your role as tower boy or what? I didn't know they eliminate tower boys through stages based on fitness, but it makes sense. :)
 
Nothing's gone wrong...

gopokes said:
OK...So in support of the OP's concerns, I'd like to know what you all think the technical issues are when Fed's FH does go off. Movement issues alone don't explain why Fed can almost find the backstop on neutral rally shots surprisingly often as of late. I also don't buy that his margins are too thin and that he's a feast or famine type player, because he has never been that guy. He's no Gonzo. You used to be able to take Fed's FH to the bank - it was obviously lethal, but also reliable. What's gone wrong here?
Click to expand...

...Federer just got outplayed in some recent matches, which was going to happen, eventually, but that doesn't mean there's anything technically wrong with his forehand or any other of his strokes. He *may* be going through a bad patch on his forehand (I don't happen to think it's that bad...), which happens to all great players and all great strokes...and there's not always a concrete reason for it or a specific fix for it other than the belief that your game will come back...

I personally think one thing Fed might do is try a Wilson with a little bigger head size. Fed is about the only guy who is still playing with a 90 square inch head racket...which doesn't mean that's necessarily bad, it's just that if my tennis game is stagnant, or my ski racing isn't going so well, one thing I've found useful is to try a different tool rather than immediately changing the way you use the tool....
 
i think its more of federers footwork, than forehand technique...hes won a ton, has 2 daughters, a wife, and tennis is prob one of the last things hes really worried about
 
He seems to get jammed more often than before when he runs around his BH.

I think he is a teensy bit slower, the opponents who beat him hit a teensy bit harder, and he has a teensy bit less confidence than when these other two things weren't happening.
 
Cindysphinx said:
He seems to get jammed more often than before when he runs around his BH.

I think he is a teensy bit slower, the opponents who beat him hit a teensy bit harder, and he has a teensy bit less confidence than when these other two things weren't happening.
Click to expand...

Bingo! In a nutshell, this is what happens when he misses, and for the most part, when all of us miss. We are rushed due to poor and/or late footwork.

As for the poster commenting on the Miami Tourney, not only was his footwork poor, it was also extremely windy that day.
 
I attended a coaching tennis event recently and one of the speakers was Leo Alonso - the coach of Leonardo Mayer from Argentina. He said something that hadn't previously occurred to me but now sounds obvious.

Those who take the game to the next level and make it evolve are the players themselves, not the coaches. All coaches do is come up with a theory to say why this or that is either correct or wrong. If it delivers the desired outcome on the court they find reasons to explain it.

You will hear many commentators say don't do this at home when they see Monfils or Djoko slide on a hard court. Or you may hear about Soderling's unconventional serving style.

The bottom line is : Does the serve go in or does the forehand work? If it does then it's fine. If it doesn't you may wanna regress to something more tried and tested. But saying that Sampras' wrong side follow through on the serve or Federer's contact point are incorrect would be unwise.

Teaching or emulating Nadal's double helicopter same side follow through on the forehand or Mcenroe's serve stance, though, means asking for trouble.
 
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I think Fed's forehand is amazing its just that most people are unable to pronate that much during their forehand. Saying his technique is flawed because it is not textbook is pretty ******. In fact the opposite is true.
 
It is biomechanical perfection...the follow though and hip roration is perfect! Good topspin generation and movement is balanced! No flaws...
 
Makes sense to analyse and emulate the best shots in the game.
Federers' very sideways head looks like it might give him a sore neck. Maybe he has a lot of neck massages.
 
star_of_death80 said:
We discussed things if my coach were to fix him up which wouldn't be too hard is either he plays is changes his grip to play more like a true semi-western forehand or change his swing-line to play more like a true eastern forehand to match his grip. Basically its either change the swing to match the grip or change the grip to match the swing. LOL
Click to expand...

I don't know about flaws in Federer's FH, but I do know a little about flaws with (bad) tennis coaches:

They start talking too soon, and then they talk too much.
 
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Recent losses have been against big hitters..his forehand technique has changed quite a bit since his earlier years. Mainly his backswing has changed (shorter and more compact especially 2009, 2010). He also seems to be swinging through the ball more and hitting flatter (overall). Thats the main noticable thing he's changed, but why? The players are striking the ball harder, federers moving slower and reacting later, he isn't striking the ball as hard either (due to shorter swing and maybe because he's getting older). These changes of federer aren't very drastic, but enough to bring him down from GOAT status to maybe a top 10 player. He also relies on his experience at the top and knowing what to do in the important points, it really saved him against Falla.

The main reason i believe this is because of federers inside out forehand. Before, if you saw federer run around his backhand you were in deep trouble. Now, when federer rounds around his backhand he sometimes just hits a rally forehand back, and opponent takes the ball to the open court and it's over. Not always, he sometimes kills those inside out balls, but not as frequent or as effective as it used to be. Just a guess on what i've noticed. I could be wrong and federer will win the next us open in straight sets.

On his forehand technique, there is no real flaw. He has his own quirks, like any other player but nothing is wrong fundamentally (always thought he was known for having the most fundamentally sound forehand technique?).
 
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I think he has the ideal pro forehand. Conservative grip can deal with low balls, yak it early, flatten it out, and hit massive spin. Can hit with all the stances. The only catch is it is difficult to execute with the straight arm requiring more preparation and taking the ball out in front. It's not a good stroke for counterpunchers or people with ba footwork, like me. lol
 
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