Fleming responds to Rafa on time rules

ark_28

ark_28

Legend
Peter Fleming on Sky made an interesting point just now, Nadal said that people should look at some of the breathtaking rallies between himself and Djokovic in the US Open final 2011! He said that you would need 40 seconds to recover and the crowd were still loving it!

Fleming agreed the level of rallying was amazing but said that Rafa is assuming his style of playing is the only way to play! And that after a long point if you feel you can't go 30 40 shots again then why not serve and volley or play much more aggressive on the next point, Fleming feels these rules should be embraced by the players as a way to make the game more attacking!

What are your thoughts on this guys?
 
Fleming is a nostalgic fella.Nobody is able to S&V nowadays, not even if there was a 5 yrs old kid at the other side of the court...
 
ark_28 said:
Peter Fleming on Sky made an interesting point just now, Nadal said that people should look at some of the breathtaking rallies between himself and Djokovic in the US Open final 2011! He said that you would need 40 seconds to recover and the crowd were still loving it!

Fleming agreed the level of rallying was amazing but said that Rafa is assuming his style of playing is the only way to play! And that after a long point if you feel you can't go 30 40 shots again then why not serve and volley or play much more aggressive on the next point, Fleming feels these rules should be embraced by the players as a way to make the game more attacking!

What are your thoughts on this guys?
Click to expand...

Speaking of time, John Isner got a time violation against Hewitt yesterday and looked annoyed. What is your take on that?
 
kiki said:
Fleming is a nostalgic fella.Nobody is able to S&V nowadays, not even if there was a 5 yrs old kid at the other side of the court...
Click to expand...

Then hit a 1-2 punch. Rafa and Djokovic are both capable of more than 100mph easily on their forehands.
 
I agree with Fleming. The players should have to adjust their games to meet the time restrictions. Who knows, it might force players to bring back the occasional serve and volley which would be good for the game. I think most fans would like see more variety opposed to long defensive rallies on every point.
 
Cup8489 said:
Then hit a 1-2 punch. Rafa and Djokovic are both capable of more than 100mph easily on their forehands.
Click to expand...

I agree with you and even though Fleming actually said serve and volley you could tell he actually meant play more aggressive on the next point try and shortern the point :-)
 
It was only breathtaking for old people to watch because the rallies were so long their oxygen tank went empty.
 
Rjtennis said:
I agree with Fleming. The players should have to adjust their games to meet the time restrictions. Who knows, it might force players to bring back the occasional serve and volley which would be good for the game. I think most fans would like see more variety opposed to long defensive rallies on every point.
Click to expand...

I agree! And I think this is very much the point he was trying to make :-)
 
As a viewer, I have never felt I am waiting for the point to start. Actually, a little bit of time between some points only adds to the drama and suspension.

Having that said, if a player abuses the time for affecting his or her opponent, which I believe was the case in Rosol match, it is not accepted. These are the points that Umpires need to be aware of.
 
ark_28 said:
Peter Fleming on Sky made an interesting point just now, Nadal said that people should look at some of the breathtaking rallies between himself and Djokovic in the US Open final 2011! He said that you would need 40 seconds to recover and the crowd were still loving it!

Fleming agreed the level of rallying was amazing but said that Rafa is assuming his style of playing is the only way to play! And that after a long point if you feel you can't go 30 40 shots again then why not serve and volley or play much more aggressive on the next point, Fleming feels these rules should be embraced by the players as a way to make the game more attacking!

What are your thoughts on this guys?
Click to expand...

Actually, it's this Fleming guy who's assuming that tennis should be played a certain way (shorter points) and the ATP is trying to force that. Having the possibility of having more time between points allows for longer rallies but it doesn't force them on anyone, it allows for shorter points just as much.
 
Crisstti said:
Actually, it's this Fleming guy who's assuming that tennis should be played a certain way (shorter points) and the ATP is trying to force that. Having the possibility of having more time between points allows for longer rallies but it doesn't force them on anyone, it allows for shorter points just as much.
Click to expand...

But Fleming isn't saying the rule ought to bring an end to the long rallies but simply that it should hopefully encourage more attacking play while also having some of the long rallies we do now! In other words it should give us much more variety
 
yea i dont think the problem is the players i think its the umpires not enforcing it. the players are going to complain no matter what. and honestly i dont think the umpires want to give violations to nadal, djokovic, federer, etc.. because theyre likable players unlike in old times (mcenroe, connors, nastase, lendl..) it was easier to give them violations
 
In the 60s and 70s they used 5 seconds, maybe 10 seconds at most, to serve the next point.

More than 20 or 25 seconds is just too much.

There have always been players that were tired after a gruelling point, and so tried to be more aggresive in the next points (just to not have a long point again).

If some players want to have 20+ strokes rallyes just in every point and rest 40 seconds in between, tennis would be very long and boring to watch.
 
IMO The reason for the long rallies is that players either don't have the nerve to try to hit an outright winner they or don't have the tools to hit an outright winner. On a hardcourt a pro should be able to hit an outright winner or a dominating shot from just inside the baseline. Maybe the shorter time will encourage players to do it.
 
ark_28 said:
Peter Fleming on Sky made an interesting point just now, Nadal said that people should look at some of the breathtaking rallies between himself and Djokovic in the US Open final 2011! He said that you would need 40 seconds to recover and the crowd were still loving it!

Fleming agreed the level of rallying was amazing but said that Rafa is assuming his style of playing is the only way to play! And that after a long point if you feel you can't go 30 40 shots again then why not serve and volley or play much more aggressive on the next point, Fleming feels these rules should be embraced by the players as a way to make the game more attacking!

What are your thoughts on this guys?
Click to expand...

If your style of play doesn't allow you to end the rallies quickly, pay the price. Nadal should pay the price.
 
I don't think Rafa is bigger than the rules and I like the time violations being enforced. But that is not a valid argument. Rafa is saying "things have changed," and they have. Fleming is saying, "but they don't have to!"

Nadal could s&v and save himself some exhaustion, but he'd also be losing a lot more often because the top 5 players in the world right now are also the 5 most consistent ralliers.
 
They should either enforce the rules strictly or persuade Djokovic to add another court ritual to his repertoire.

Never have I wished for a shorter time between points than when he bounces that ball for a solid 30 seconds. Hell even Nadal has more variety on this front even if it bugs me almost equally as much.
 
Crisstti said:
Actually, it's this Fleming guy who's assuming that tennis should be played a certain way (shorter points) and the ATP is trying to force that. Having the possibility of having more time between points allows for longer rallies but it doesn't force them on anyone, it allows for shorter points just as much.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was about to say.

It's also silly that some posters are saying players should alter the play of style because of the new time rule.
 
OddJack said:
As a viewer, I have never felt I am waiting for the point to start. Actually, a little bit of time between some points only adds to the drama and suspension.

Having that said, if a player abuses the time for affecting his or her opponent, which I believe was the case in Rosol match, it is not accepted. These are the points that Umpires need to be aware of.
Click to expand...

Me either, well before the Australian Open this year anyway. The time difference and a new job meant I had to record alot of it. I had to fast forward between points and got a 3 hour match done in under an hour, not missing a single shot. It was a bit of an eye opener.

As for the rule, totally agree with Fleming. The rules are there, live by them and adapt. I'm sure if Isner kept foot faulting on aces he wouldn't be saying it's a silly rule and he should be let off for it. Sure, fans like to see huge serving, just as some like to see long rallies. Bending the rules to make that happen isn't right.
 
ark_28 said:
But Fleming isn't saying the rule ought to bring an end to the long rallies but simply that it should hopefully encourage more attacking play while also having some of the long rallies we do now! In other words it should give us much more variety
Click to expand...

There NOTHING stopping players from playing a more attacking style, however much time is allowed.

big ted said:
yea i dont think the problem is the players i think its the umpires not enforcing it. the players are going to complain no matter what. and honestly i dont think the umpires want to give violations to nadal, djokovic, federer, etc.. because theyre likable players unlike in old times (mcenroe, connors, nastase, lendl..) it was easier to give them violations
Click to expand...

Did the 25 second rule exist then?.
 
tennis_pro said:
If your style of play doesn't allow you to end the rallies quickly, pay the price. Nadal should pay the price.
Click to expand...

The rules should not determine a style of play.

Rocky89 said:
Exactly what I was about to say.

It's also silly that some posters are saying players should alter the play of style because of the new time rule.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that's the people who believe there a "right" and a "wrong" style of play.
 
Wow, first thread of ark28 that is not about Isner. However there seems to be an implicit suggestion that Nadal should play strike first tennis just like....
 
Crisstti said:
The rules should not determine a style of play.



I'm guessing that's the people who believe there a "right" and a "wrong" style of play.
Click to expand...

The style of play should be able to be executed within the rules of the game. If it is not able to be, that is the player's fault for developing an unsuitable style.

Plenty of grinders were able to do this in the past, why not now? Why all of a sudden are these big physically fit players such wimps?

I never heard of Borg complaining, despite playing ridiculously long rallies on clay. He followed the rules.Why can't today's players?
 
But why does Ralph need so much time between points?
Perhaps he could subtract a couple of rituals from his list of rituals? :lol:
 
kiki said:
Fleming is a nostalgic fella.Nobody is able to S&V nowadays, not even if there was a 5 yrs old kid at the other side of the court...
Click to expand...
Really? Then how did Llodra beat Tsonga in straight sets by serving and volleying just 2 weeks ago in Dubai? The last I checked, Tsonga is older than 5 and is also one of the best players on the planet.
 
Cup8489 said:
The style of play should be able to be executed within the rules of the game. If it is not able to be, that is the player's fault for developing an unsuitable style.
Click to expand...

You picked up the wrong person, if you think, that this concept will be understood.

For reference, see my signature.
 
rommil said:
It was only breathtaking for old people to watch because the rallies were so long their oxygen tank went empty.
Click to expand...

LOL
Them old people should also blood dope so they can watch six straight hours of tennis without running outa breath :D
 
monfed said:
But why does Ralph need so much time between points?
Perhaps he could subtract a couple of rituals from his list of rituals? :lol:
Click to expand...

He adopted an all-body game - a ritual for his head (sweat off nose, hair behind ears unlike that crude Roger who twitches his head like a spastic because he's lazy), arms, backside (as a large part of his body, this may be percentage play and a big part of his arsenal) and feet (hitting racquet against his shoe and humbly cleaning the lines unlike arrogant Roger who makes other people do it).

Are you trying to promote one-dimensional rituals? I'd be embarrassed to call myself a tennis purist if I were you.
 
Well whatever works for Rafa is cool, but all the rituals should fit within the allotted time. Bending the rule to accommodate these rituals, like the ATP has been doing in effect is not fair to other players and the fans.
 
Cup8489 said:
The style of play should be able to be executed within the rules of the game. If it is not able to be, that is the player's fault for developing an unsuitable style.

Plenty of grinders were able to do this in the past, why not now? Why all of a sudden are these big physically fit players such wimps?

I never heard of Borg complaining, despite playing ridiculously long rallies on clay. He followed the rules.Why can't today's players?
Click to expand...

Was there the 25 second rule at Borg's time?.

Anyway, the rule was to be applied according to the criteria of umpires, and now they've taken that away favouring a style of play and perjudicing another, which is what Nadal is saying.

Plus, it gives umpires way too much influence over the results of matches, which I don't see why sports fans should ever be OK with.

It would be interesting to know how much time players like Borg and Hewitt usually took, particularly after long rallies.
 
I remember that classic battle between Nadal and Djokovic in Madrid back in 09, which for me is probably the best three set clay court match I have seen.

That match lasted four hours.

I clearly remember that a poster here posted the match on you tube minus the time between the points and the sitting down at the change of ends....The match was complete from first point to the last point in 45 minutes. Staggering! :shock:
 
Peter Fleming is always a good quote here are two gems when in the studio!

Murray once lost a match I think it was when he lost to DY two years back Fleming in the studio said "that match was like a porno movie, it started terribly got better in the middle and just had a horrible ending.

The other one was when there was rain in Rome at the masters the presenter asked Fleming if the organisers would soon start to press the panic button he said "Oh why nooooooooot push it and see what happens"
 
Nobody cares about players taking a little extra time after a tough point. It’s a red herring. The real problem is players like Nadal that take extra time between points no matter what, even if he double faults. His stupid ritual is independent of how hard he works between points. That’s where the time violation needs to be strictly enforced. Same with Djesus and his 58 ball bounces before he can serve.
 
A new quote from Rafa about this:
“You have to see the third set of the U.S. Open 2011 against Djokovic, and you tell me if the crowd was very happy about what happened in that set or not, and tell me if with this new rule that can happen again,” Nadal said. “Please.”
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/03/nadal-blasts-time-violation-rule-says-umpires-have-lost-their-value/46743/

Nadal probably forgot what happened in the 4th set of this match. Is that what viewers really want to see?
 
Murray, Federer, Ferrer, and Tsonga all play fairly fast and don't seem to have a problem with the rule. I am sure they may complain if they get a warning but all in all, they will be rarely impacted by the rule.

Djoko and Nadal play slow. They play slow in stressful situations as often as after a long point.

Nadal needs to get it over it and play by the rules. Ferrer plays long points as does Murray and they both play at a reasonably fast pace.

As a viewer, I much prefer a faster pace. I hate it when Nadal goes into slo-mo mode and Djoko stands there and bounces the ball 12-14 times. Most times they do this it is because they are in a stressful situation and has little to do with fatigue.
 
Most of what Nadal said in his statement is wrong. I have seen many, many great tennis matches in hot and humid climates with players playing fairly fast.

Maybe we could go to 20 seconds and use 25 seconds if the temperature is over 90 degrees but that's about as far as I would go.

I think they should put 2 clocks on each end of the court so the players can see it and if time expires, they get a warning.
 
sdont said:
A new quote from Rafa about this:
“You have to see the third set of the U.S. Open 2011 against Djokovic, and you tell me if the crowd was very happy about what happened in that set or not, and tell me if with this new rule that can happen again,” Nadal said. “Please.”
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/03/nadal-blasts-time-violation-rule-says-umpires-have-lost-their-value/46743/

Nadal probably forgot what happened in the 4th set of this match. Is that what viewers really want to see?
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this! This was the quote that they put on the screen on sky which Fleming was responding to.
 
I guess I just think in terms of my playing experience...if my opponent is stalling or not in as good of shape I shouldn't have to give them an extended breather to get ''right.''I don't quick pitch(serve) and I also don't want to be standing around waiting for them to serve either! It seems there should be a rhythm to the match. Just my opinion.
 
sdont said:
A new quote from Rafa about this:
“You have to see the third set of the U.S. Open 2011 against Djokovic, and you tell me if the crowd was very happy about what happened in that set or not, and tell me if with this new rule that can happen again,” Nadal said. “Please.”
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/03/nadal-blasts-time-violation-rule-says-umpires-have-lost-their-value/46743/

Nadal probably forgot what happened in the 4th set of this match. Is that what viewers really want to see?
Click to expand...


While that third set was just outrageously intense and a true spectacle. Look what it did to the two players. They were both destroyed for the rest of the season, and a lot has to be attributed to how brutal that third set was.
 
commentating clowns should shut their arse and just watch the fun from the box......making idiotic comments knowing nothing about the intensity at which tennis is played these days......
 
Start da Game said:
commentating clowns should shut their arse and just watch the fun from the box......making idiotic comments knowing nothing about the intensity at which tennis is played these days......
Click to expand...


You have to figure out how to conserve energy, maybe a little more S and V.
A little more aggression.

The match may turn out to be less stressful if players adjust their game, adding another element to be considered by the players.
 
TennisCJC said:
Murray, Federer, Ferrer, and Tsonga all play fairly fast and don't seem to have a problem with the rule. I am sure they may complain if they get a warning but all in all, they will be rarely impacted by the rule.

Djoko and Nadal play slow. They play slow in stressful situations as often as after a long point.

Nadal needs to get it over it and play by the rules. Ferrer plays long points as does Murray and they both play at a reasonably fast pace.

As a viewer, I much prefer a faster pace. I hate it when Nadal goes into slo-mo mode and Djoko stands there and bounces the ball 12-14 times. Most times they do this it is because they are in a stressful situation and has little to do with fatigue.
Click to expand...

Yep. I think the physical recovery argument is far over-stated. The worst offenders still take too long between points even after double faulting, short points, etc. Kind of using the opportunity to take excessive time (absent enforcement of the time rule by the umpire) to manage stress and mental recovery.

It would be interesting to find out if players in general take longer after losing a point vs if they won the point.
 
Talker said:
You have to figure out how to conserve energy, maybe a little more S and V.
A little more aggression.

The match may turn out to be less stressful if players adjust their game, adding another element to be considered by the players.
Click to expand...

nope......following the same old 25 seconds rule is nonsense......why did they slow down the courts? to increase the average rally length, please the tennis fans, increase air time and thereby increase advertising span and ultimately achieve better profits.......

now how the **** are the players supposed to follow the same old 1960s rule when the ITF have changed the sport a lot to suit their benefits?

either they should change the sport back to old times or just shut their trap......asking them to serve and volley on these slow ass courts is a pathetic advice at best......players wouldn't have learned tennis the way they did had the ITF not slowed down the courts.......they would have opted for aggressive tennis a la 90s.......now asking them to change is nothing but headless suggestion.......
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

C
Not really thought about this before - tax rules
Replies
18
Views
3K
ark_28
ark_28
B
Is the best doubles team of all time actually John Newcombe and whoever he plays with?
Replies
23
Views
2K
ScentOfDefeat
ScentOfDefeat
P
Rafa's response on time violations.
2
Replies
94
Views
7K
aprilfool
A
L
Sampras v Schalken 2002 US Open semi
Replies
7
Views
1K
hawk eye
H
OrangePower
Rules changes to make the game better
Replies
27
Views
2K
willshot
W
Back
Top