Flop-gen: 3 flaws in each of their game

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Hall of Fame
pitsipas

1. service motion is flawed, no body-weight behind the swing, it's just the arms and a big swing
2. forehand lacking punch
3. backhand cannot fire down the line

mugvedev

1. terrible forehand, seems like he cannot generate power when he needs it, jumps like a girl and throws his entire body into the shot to generate power, throwing himself off balance for the next shot
2. unorthodox tennis is no excuse for bad volleys
3. bad second serve

mugsha

1. weak forehand oozing lack of confidence
2. one of the worst second serves among top 5 players in history
3. lacks consistency on backhand

the common theme among all three is their inability to dictate play with their forehand.........thiem is excluded from flop-gen as he showed on numerous times what he is capable of.........that's it folks, chip in........
 

socallefty

Legend
Many here berate the NextGen as being mentally weak because they can’t win against the Big3 in later stages of Slam matches. But, I have always believed that it is because of their technique deficiencies where they all have holes that can be taken advantage of in a Bestof5 match by ATG opponents. One of the main reasons that the Big 3 are so great is that they all have textbook technique with relatively minor weaknesses and they have the drive to keep improving their technique and fitness. I don’t see this same ability to reduce weaknesses amongst the younger players and that is limiting them from reaching ATG heights.

Thiem has made his shots more compact which was one of his biggest weaknesses and right now doesn’t have big technique flaws. As a result, I think he is a serious Slam threat already on clay and slow hard courts - so, I see him winning the FO and USO (excluding 2020 win where he didn’t face Novak or Rafa) sooner than any of the other NextGen players with technique flaws. Hard to imagine anyone else winning the AO or Wimbledon anytime soon if Novak is in full flow and uninjured.
 

Start da Game

Hall of Fame
Many here berate the NextGen as being mentally weak because they can’t win against the Big3 in later stages of Slam matches. But, I have always believed that it is because of their technique deficiencies where they all have holes that can be taken advantage of in a Bestof5 match by ATG opponents. One of the main reasons that the Big 3 are so great is that they all have textbook technique with relatively minor weaknesses and they have the drive to keep improving their technique and fitness. I don’t see this same ability to reduce weaknesses amongst the younger players and that is limiting them from reaching ATG heights.

Thiem has made his shots more compact which was one of his biggest weaknesses and right now doesn’t have big technique flaws. As a result, I think he is a serious Slam threat already on clay and slow hard courts - so, I see him winning the FO and USO (excluding 2020 win where he didn’t face Novak or Rafa) sooner than any of the other NextGen players with technique flaws. Hard to imagine anyone else winning the AO or Wimbledon anytime soon if Novak is in full flow and uninjured.
thiem is the only one with properly developed groundstrokes, his groundies do pack a punch.........plus he doesn't spend much time on instacr@p.........the others just feel lightweight in comparison to the bug-3........
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Tsitspas:
First thing is mediocre return
BH can break down
fH varies quite a bit

Med:
Lack of consistent offense on FH
Serve not reliable/clutch enough


Zverev:

Too passive - especially FH
Mentality in slams
 
N

Nuclear Warhead Sinner

Guest
pitsipas

1. service motion is flawed, no body-weight behind the swing, it's just the arms and a big swing
2. forehand lacking punch
3. backhand cannot fire down the line

mugvedev

1. terrible forehand, seems like he cannot generate power when he needs it, jumps like a girl and throws his entire body into the shot to generate power, throwing himself off balance for the next shot
2. unorthodox tennis is no excuse for bad volleys
3. bad second serve

mugsha

1. weak forehand oozing lack of confidence
2. one of the worst second serves among top 5 players in history
3. lacks consistency on backhand

the common theme among all three is their inability to dictate play with their forehand.........thiem is excluded from flop-gen as he showed on numerous times what he is capable of.........that's it folks, chip in........


Anyone with a decent background in bio mechanics would cringe at Med's forehand execution. What saves him is his accuracy.
Thiem is indeed a very well rounded player from a technical standpoint. However, he's mentally weak.
The fact that players with such big technical flaws as Zverev are the best of their gen is absolutely pathetic.
The good tennis is a forgotten art.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

socallefty

Legend
Except for his 2nd serve, I think Sasha’s technique is pretty clean. If he improves his second serve and gets a coach who convinces him to be more offensive from the baseline when he plays Nadal/Djokovic/Thiem, I think he can win a few Slams. He was better than Djokovic from the baseline in the recent AO quarterfinal, but lost the match because Djokovic outserved him and he got the double-fault ‘service yips’ when up a break in two sets.

Zverev has less technique issues on his groundstrokes and returns than Tsitsipas and Medvedev. Amongst the three of these young guns, only Tsitsipas has beaten anyone from the Big 3 in a Slam and he has done it twice - maybe his mindset is better.
 
All: mental and physical endurance in 5 set matches, ability to make in match adjustments, volleys, transition game

Zverev: mental toughness, second serve, rally positioning, backhand shot selection

Tsitsipas: transition footwork, shot selection (all), inconsistent, low emotional intelligence

Thiem: mental toughness, lack ability to consistently end points early

Medvedev: everything

Dimitrov: Shot selection, rally positioning, shot tolerance (should actually be lower), inability to recognize when he’s at an advantage in a point. Amnesia like ability to forget about half the shots in his arsenal as soon as he realizes he’s at an advantage in a point.

Shapovolov: mental toughness, emotional intelligence, shot tolerance, ability to adapt. He’s young and actually has good strokes though, I’m bullish

Berretini: backhand, recovery footwork

Rublev: serve, backhand recovery footwork, backhand shot selection, inability to pace himself and preserve energy, inability to quickly finish points

Schwartzman: he actually is the strongest tactically and mentally I think. Nothing wrong technically either, and he’s one of my favorite nextgen to watch. Unfortunately, he’s just really short, and has the inherent weakness that come with that.
 

Novichok

Professional
1. Low Swingweight on their racquets
2. Sub ATG movement
3. An attention span of a disinterested cat

:cool:
According to this sheet, the swingweight of zverev's racquet is 360 and that of tsittypas' racquet is 343. Medvedev's swingweight should also be around 340-345. In comparison, Federer's racquet has a swingweight of 345, Nadal's racquet is at 368 and Novaxx racquet is at 360. So low swingweight is not the problem.
 
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daggerman

Hall of Fame
If he improves his second serve and gets a coach who convinces him to be more offensive from the baseline when he plays Nadal/Djokovic/Thiem, I think he can win a few Slams.
Agreed. Maybe he should consider hiring Ivan Len...oh, wait...

There's really no reason he shouldn't have one of the most dangerous forehands on tour. It's all about approach/mindset for him.
 
According to this sheet, the swingweight of zverev's racquet is 360 and that of tsittypas' racquet is 343. Medvedev's swingweight should also be around 340-345. In comparison, Federer's racquet has a swingweight of 345, Nadal's racquet is at 368 and Novak's racquet is at 360. So low swingweight is not the problem.
Well, it is a combination of factors. There is just too much detail to discuss that in depth, but two out of the three are in the "upper" SW range (and Novak actually lowered his SW at some point), and the other one (Federer) swings a rather weighty stick, which gives him different advantages as a tradeoff for the "lower" SW. Maybe it is not entirely accidental that Zverev played Djokovic harder at the AO than Medvedev did. Not saying that it is only or even mainly because of that, but these things add up.

Also, when Schwartzman beat Thiem at RG, guess which player had a racquet with a higher SW?

:cool:
 
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roysid

Hall of Fame
Only Thiem has defeated Nadal and Djokovic on slams.

Djokovic in french and Nadal in AO. If hes on form, he's a threat. Goes for his strengths.

He also almost beat Nadal in USO and Djokovic at AO.

He's the only one who looks like he has chance
 

MadariKatu

Professional
Shapovolov: mental toughness, emotional intelligence, shot tolerance, ability to adapt. He’s young and actually has good strokes though, I’m bullish

Schwartzman: he actually is the strongest tactically and mentally I think. Nothing wrong technically either, and he’s one of my favorite nextgen to watch. Unfortunately, he’s just really short, and has the inherent weakness that come with that.
I think that Shapovalov needs to improve his consistency. He got much better in that department since working with Youzny, but needs another push. I'd love to start seeing him making deep runs regularly, I find his game highly entertaining.
Regarding Schwarzman, I totally agree. He made it in the top10 with his height, and that is because of his tactical abilities. That's why he's on my top5 clay players in the world, since clay promotes point constructing.
 

daggerman

Hall of Fame
Only Thiem has defeated Nadal and Djokovic on slams.

Djokovic in french and Nadal in AO. If hes on form, he's a threat. Goes for his strengths.

He also almost beat Nadal in USO and Djokovic at AO.

He's the only one who looks like he has chance
Yes, but he's also ~3+ years older than everybody else being discussed. He should be further along than Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Zverev etc.

The fact that he only seems to be marginally further along than them doesn't portend good things for his future as a slam contender imo.
 

guga_fan

Semi-Pro
All: mental and physical endurance in 5 set matches, ability to make in match adjustments, volleys, transition game

Zverev: mental toughness, second serve, rally positioning, backhand shot selection

Tsitsipas: transition footwork, shot selection (all), inconsistent, low emotional intelligence

Thiem: mental toughness, lack ability to consistently end points early

Medvedev: everything

Dimitrov: Shot selection, rally positioning, shot tolerance (should actually be lower), inability to recognize when he’s at an advantage in a point. Amnesia like ability to forget about half the shots in his arsenal as soon as he realizes he’s at an advantage in a point.

Shapovolov: mental toughness, emotional intelligence, shot tolerance, ability to adapt. He’s young and actually has good strokes though, I’m bullish

Berretini: backhand, recovery footwork

Rublev: serve, backhand recovery footwork, backhand shot selection, inability to pace himself and preserve energy, inability to quickly finish points

Schwartzman: he actually is the strongest tactically and mentally I think. Nothing wrong technically either, and he’s one of my favorite nextgen to watch. Unfortunately, he’s just really short, and has the inherent weakness that come with that.
I really liked this post. Very perceptive and I agree with most of the points you brought up.

Could you also list the flaws of the Big 4 + Stan and Delpo?
 

GhostOfNKDM

Hall of Fame
Meddy moves well for a big guy, is decent coming forward and most importantly can crank the first serve unlike many in this gen.

Despite his technical flaws, if he can stay hungry (AO finals was a bad performance period), I think he wins slams before alongside Thiem.
 

socallefty

Legend
Meddy moves well for a big guy, is decent coming forward and most importantly can crank the first serve unlike many in this gen.
I don’t think this is accurate. Medvedev averages around 124mph on 1st serves while Berettini is about 5mph faster and Zverev is about 10mph faster. Thiem and Tsitsipas are only 3-4 mph slower than Med in average 1st serve speed also. All of them can crank 130mph serves frequently when they are feeling confident unlike the Big 3 who can rarely go above 125mph and average below 120mph typically.
 

GhostOfNKDM

Hall of Fame
I don’t think this is accurate. Medvedev averages around 124mph on 1st serves while Berettini is about 5mph faster and Zverev is about 10mph faster. Thiem and Tsitsipas are only 3-4 mph slower than Med in average 1st serve speed also. All of them can crank 130mph serves frequently when they are feeling confident unlike the Big 3 who can rarely go above 125mph and average below 120mph typically.
How do their first serve %, aces, service winners and win % compare? Meddy seems more reliable to my eyes... I don't have numbers
 

vex

Legend
pitsipas

1. service motion is flawed, no body-weight behind the swing, it's just the arms and a big swing
2. forehand lacking punch
3. backhand cannot fire down the line

mugvedev

1. terrible forehand, seems like he cannot generate power when he needs it, jumps like a girl and throws his entire body into the shot to generate power, throwing himself off balance for the next shot
2. unorthodox tennis is no excuse for bad volleys
3. bad second serve

mugsha

1. weak forehand oozing lack of confidence
2. one of the worst second serves among top 5 players in history
3. lacks consistency on backhand

the common theme among all three is their inability to dictate play with their forehand.........thiem is excluded from flop-gen as he showed on numerous times what he is capable of.........that's it folks, chip in........
Medv’s FH is alot of things but “terrible” and “unable to generate power” it is not.
 

vex

Legend
All: mental and physical endurance in 5 set matches, ability to make in match adjustments, volleys, transition game

Zverev: mental toughness, second serve, rally positioning, backhand shot selection

Tsitsipas: transition footwork, shot selection (all), inconsistent, low emotional intelligence

Thiem: mental toughness, lack ability to consistently end points early

Medvedev: everything

Dimitrov: Shot selection, rally positioning, shot tolerance (should actually be lower), inability to recognize when he’s at an advantage in a point. Amnesia like ability to forget about half the shots in his arsenal as soon as he realizes he’s at an advantage in a point.

Shapovolov: mental toughness, emotional intelligence, shot tolerance, ability to adapt. He’s young and actually has good strokes though, I’m bullish

Berretini: backhand, recovery footwork

Rublev: serve, backhand recovery footwork, backhand shot selection, inability to pace himself and preserve energy, inability to quickly finish points

Schwartzman: he actually is the strongest tactically and mentally I think. Nothing wrong technically either, and he’s one of my favorite nextgen to watch. Unfortunately, he’s just really short, and has the inherent weakness that come with that.
I can’t stand Med but to say “everything” is flawed in his game is just “wut?” His game is unconventional but he’s dominated the tour for a reason.
 

socallefty

Legend
How do their first serve %, aces, service winners and win % compare? Meddy seems more reliable to my eyes... I don't have numbers
You should check out the ATP site for stats.


Berrettini and Tsitsipas are rated above Med on the serve rating that the ATP uses. Thiem and Rublev are just behind him. Zverev is way behind him, but that’s because of his inconsistent second serve and not because of his first serve.
 

canta_Brian

Professional
Aside from the blip that is the big 3 not being repeated the tour is stronger than it’s ever been
Do you genuinely think that?
I think Lendl, Wilander, JMac, overlapping with Sampras, Agassi, Becker, Edberg . Throw in Stich and Ivanisavic on their day, Muster for clay, the development of Courier and Kuerten on the dirt as well. There are glimmers of hope with players like sinner and karatsev joining the party, but I don't think they play well enough yet to claim to be stronger than those I have mentioned.
 
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Start da Game

Hall of Fame
Medv’s FH is alot of things but “terrible” and “unable to generate power” it is not.
in his early career exploits in 2019, he showed this uncanny ability to surprise opponents with sudden injection of pace on the forehand........that seems to have somehow disappeared now.........he is trying too hard to hit through bug-3.........
 
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vex

Legend
Do you genuinely think that?
I think Lendl, Wilander, JMac, overlapping with Sampras, Agassi, Becker, Edberg . Throw in Stich and Ivanisavic on their day, Muster for clay, the development of Courier and Kuerten on the dirt as well. There are glimmers of hope with players like sinner and karatsev joining the party, but I don't think they play well enough yet to claim to be stronger than those I have mentioned.
It’s really hard to compare bc the games so different. I do think in this current era, the general field continues to inch forward albiet the Big 3 are freaks. I always look at comparing Ferrer to the young guns. I think there are several guys better than Ferrer right now.
 

Robert F

Professional
As a group they are very athletic and fit, I almost wonder if works against them. They seem to be comfortable just slugging from behind the baseline and getting away with mediocre offense and mediocre defense and to some extent then smartly waiting for an easy opening. I think a lot of ATGs aren't waiting they are creating the openings to win points. (I think that is why we always like having Fed/Kyrgios in the line up, we know they are going to try to create action).

Fed, Djoker, and to some extent Zverev hit with a good combo of spin/depth/pace. Heavy penetrating balls, but not overspun. I think that may be why Karatsev is having a good run--he hits deep/heavy/relatively flat but I prefer to say not overspun (choosing spin over depth-pace-weight). A lot of the next gen hit great heavy balls, but at times they seem overspun.

The lack of penetration is partially why Dmitrov hasn't captured some slams. He moves well, even comes forward, but doesn't have the weight consistently of the Big 3 in his strokes.

Nadal is known for his spin, but he still has the oomph and both he and Djoker and in the old days Fed turned defense to offense. More importantly Djoker and Fed really try to control the baseline. Most of the new guys like hanging farther back trading heavy spun balls, impressive until you come up against someone who can dictate closer to the baseline. Ironically, Nadal is able to do that 8 feet behind the baseline. Stan and Thiem manage it at times as well.

Some of the next gen try to move forward, giving me some hope for Shapo.
 

vex

Legend
As a group they are very athletic and fit, I almost wonder if works against them. They seem to be comfortable just slugging from behind the baseline and getting away with mediocre offense and mediocre defense and to some extent then smartly waiting for an easy opening. I think a lot of ATGs aren't waiting they are creating the openings to win points. (I think that is why we always like having Fed/Kyrgios in the line up, we know they are going to try to create action).

Fed, Djoker, and to some extent Zverev hit with a good combo of spin/depth/pace. Heavy penetrating balls, but not overspun. I think that may be why Karatsev is having a good run--he hits deep/heavy/relatively flat but I prefer to say not overspun (choosing spin over depth-pace-weight). A lot of the next gen hit great heavy balls, but at times they seem overspun.

The lack of penetration is partially why Dmitrov hasn't captured some slams. He moves well, even comes forward, but doesn't have the weight consistently of the Big 3 in his strokes.

Nadal is known for his spin, but he still has the oomph and both he and Djoker and in the old days Fed turned defense to offense. More importantly Djoker and Fed really try to control the baseline. Most of the new guys like hanging farther back trading heavy spun balls, impressive until you come up against someone who can dictate closer to the baseline. Ironically, Nadal is able to do that 8 feet behind the baseline. Stan and Thiem manage it at times as well.

Some of the next gen try to move forward, giving me some hope for Shapo.
Best 1 min synopsis of 2017-2021 tennis I’ve read :)
 

yokied

Hall of Fame
@Robert F is right and it’s actually worse than he states.

Not only is it a sea of mediocrity at their peak levels, but they’re actually punching themselves out early in the matches against quality opponents. Then they can’t even hold their mediocre peak levels for much longer than a set, set and a half tops. Sinner has done this recently Vs Med in Marseilles and Vs Karats in Dubai. Somewhat criminally stupid Vs Karats, as he was up in the match.

And then we know all too well what happens next. The wheels fall off early in the 2nd. There’s no quality B-game, because their A-game is a B-game. They panic, start swinging more but just aren’t good ball-strikers, so a 6-4/7-5/7-6 1st set is followed up with blowouts in later sets. And it is absolutely not about conditioning, but woefully inefficient tactics. And the commentators talk about shortening the points when it’s obvious they’re gassed. How about getting a lead efficiently and exploiting it efficiently early in the match?
 
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