FO 2017 QF: Andy Murray vs Kei Nishikori

Murray or Kei?

  • Total voters
    49
veroniquem said:
Yes, it does, excuse-me very much. Try Schwartz (#1 returner on clay in 2017), Vinolas and Thiem for an alternative and see what happens to Murray.
:rolleyes:
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10103.jpg
 
veroniquem said:
Yes, it does, excuse-me very much. Try Schwartz (#1 returner on clay in 2017), Vinolas and Thiem for an alternative and see what happens to Murray.
:rolleyes:
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Lol. Murray would make it past Schwartzman and ARV, even if they were 4 or 5-set battles. Against Thiem? Well, we'll see. He's definitely been in better form than Novak this tournament - and I am saying this as a fan of Novak.
 
Mainad said:
You are not excused because it doesn't and you are simply letting your pro-Djokovic bias affect your judgement. That's all. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Hum no. I just happen to have paid attention to who the tough players have been on clay this season. And it sure was not Kuz or Klizan :) (or Nishi for that matter :oops:).
 
Krish872007 said:
Lol. Murray would make it past Schwartzman and ARV, even if they were 4 or 5-set battles. Against Thiem? Well, we'll see. He's definitely been in better form than Novak this tournament - and I am saying this as a fan of Novak.
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2017 Murray would have been absolutely incapable of passing in form clay court specialists in early rounds. See rest of his clay season.
 
I think Murray might be able to draw a ton of errors from Stan like he did last year. It's frustrating to watch him just run side to side retrieving balls. It's more enjoyable to watch big hitting and painting lines.
 
Sysyphus said:
For the title? Now that's a mistake. – sincerely, muzziaht@rd.

That said, from what I watched (not nearly the whole thing) it wasn't that bad today? Pressuring more with his forehand again, hitting some winners, dishing two breadsticks. That said, what were the winner/ue stats for both guys today?
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31-26 for Muzz, good against a decent defender like Nishi. 33-45 for Nishi. 6 DF's for Muzz, got broken 5 times and broke 7 times.
 
veroniquem said:
Oh he would have, easily even. Would have lost to Wawa though :oops:
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Sure thing :rolleyes:
Mainad said:
Do me a favour. Kuznetsov, Klizan, DelPotro, Khachanov and Nishikori most definitely do NOT constitute a cakewalk draw!!
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This.
Sysyphus said:
LOL, you know it's heavy times when you have to talk up a 4-foot Argentinian and Mugos Mugolas to make it through the day
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and this, lol :D:D
veroniquem said:
Yes, it does, excuse-me very much. Try Schwartz (#1 returner on clay in 2017), Vinolas and Thiem for an alternative and see what happens to Murray.
:rolleyes:
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Schwartz who can also boost a, let's hear it,.....drumroll please........... 65 % win rate on his own service games on clay this year. Yeah, that guy.

Thiem is a fair point, but he's 2nd week material and was the hardest QF-draw, that's true.
Sysyphus said:
LOL, you know it's heavy times when you have to talk up a 4-foot Argentinian and Mugos Mugolas to make it through the day
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ojo rojo said:
10103.jpg
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too funny, I had to show this one to my GF
 
Chanwan said:
31-26 for Muzz, good against a decent defender like Nishi. 33-45 for Nishi. 6 DF's for Muzz, got broken 5 times and broke 7 times.
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Thnx!

Did you watch any? Impressions of it?

Seems to me that Murray is slowly but slyly working himself into better form than he has had previously this year, but still some hitches, and that he'll have to hope for something special given the form the Stanimal train has rolled into.
 
Sysyphus said:
Thnx!

Did you watch any? Impressions of it?

Seems to me that Murray is slowly but slyly working himself into better form than he has had previously this year, but still some hitches, and that he'll have to hope for something special given the form the Stanimal train has rolled into.
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I did, but not a whole lot. Was watching the Stanimal instead. Saw from Muzz serving at 6-5 in the 3rd. Nishi broke back on a great game only to gift the TB away with 7 errors, where at most 1 of them could be classified as forced. Muzz did some great defending on 2 of the points though, but it was really more an implosion from Nishi. Nishi broke again to start the 3rd, was up 40-30, but another string of errors saw him break himself. After that, it was all Muzz, but hard to judge his level as Nishi was missing in action.

What Muzz did great though, in the games I saw, was to get everything back in play and, in the end, to run with his advantage. There were a couple of points, where he would just get to everything whatsoever. Granted, Nishi doesn't hit as hard as Stan, but that type of defending can trouble Stan too. And his lobs are as good as ever, if not better, this tournament. Truly amazing.

I do think Murray's in his best form of 2017 now, safe perhaps of Doha. He's played himself into form. Still short of Clayray from 2016 though and Stan is looking pretty, pretty good.

All in all, I give Stan a 55-60 % chance in the semi.
 
Mainad said:
Granollers? Sousa? Form players on clay this season?? Like, since when......??o_O
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Oh let's not start playing games now, shall we? I'm talking best clay returner of the season (Schwartz), clay master finalist (Vinolas) and only guy who has beaten Nadal this season (Thiem).
Kuz and Klizan have not even passed a round in clay masters.
 
Last edited:
Sysyphus said:
1.16 dominance ratio on clay this season, Ramos = 1.09. Keep rowing:rolleyes: Only Thiem was big league in Novak's quarter.
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Oh I missed that master final that Delpo has reached on clay. Dominance ratio? Except that Vinolas has won 18 matches on clay, Delpo 5. Delpo has played too few matches on clay for % to mean zip. And hey don't let Ramos-Vinolas being #12 in the race and Delpo #45 fool you. Delpo has shown far superior form. Right :rolleyes:
ETA: once again, wake up from your dream. This is not 2009 anymore. Welcome to the current tour.
 
Ray Mercer said:
I think Murray might be able to draw a ton of errors from Stan like he did last year. It's frustrating to watch him just run side to side retrieving balls. It's more enjoyable to watch big hitting and painting lines.
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When Rafa makes Murray run around retrieving balls, it won't be frustrating, but laughable.
 
veroniquem said:
Oh I missed that master final that Delpo has reached on clay. Dominance ratio? Except that Vinolas has won 18 matches on clay, Delpo 5. Delpo has played too few matches on clay for % to mean zip. And hey don't let Ramos-Vinolas being #12 in the race and Delpo #45 fool you. Delpo has shown far superior form. Right :rolleyes:
ETA: once again, wake up from your dream. This is not 2009 anymore. Welcome to the current tour.
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Wouldn't have too much faith in MUGolas though. When push comes to shove, Delpo is probably still better, though not significantly. Delpo without backhand on clay is like..well you name it.
 
Gazelle said:
Wouldn't have too much faith in MUGolas though. When push comes to shove, Delpo is probably still better, though not significantly. Delpo without backhand on clay is like..well you name it.
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I name it: not much of a threat. Maybe on grass. But not on clay.
Delpo lasted longer vs Murray than he did vs Djoko in Rome though.
His serve has declined a lot (compared to his prime), not as much as Djoko but Djoko is the better returner.
ETA: I have at least faith that Vinolas DID beat Murray on a very similar clay to RG recently.
 
Sysyphus said:
Thnx!

Did you watch any? Impressions of it?

Seems to me that Murray is slowly but slyly working himself into better form than he has had previously this year, but still some hitches, and that he'll have to hope for something special given the form the Stanimal train has rolled into.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna disagree with @Chanwan slightly in that while Nishikori was his usual flakey self in big matches and imploded on many of the key points (with a defeatist body language in the 4th set with slumped shoulders) more than a little of that was IMO due to Murray being Murray again ever since the match with Delpo.

I was switching back and forth between Stan ground and pounding Cilic and this match but what I saw from Murray was his usual routine of flying around court getting everything back mixed up with some controlled aggression from his underrated topspin FH, occasionally stepping into the court on the ROS, coming up with big 1st serves when he needed them, a few otherworldy lobs as Chanwan mentioned etc. He was also emotionally very invested into the match, both pumping himself up with cmons and berrating himself (by cursing and hitting his thigh) while in some of his losses this year he was quite listless.

Overall I'd say a big difference between this Murray and the one we saw against Fognini in Rome for example, I definitely feel he's rounding himself into slam winning form again. I'd favour Stan in the SF but wouldn't be exactly shocked if Murray defuses his power and drives him crazy with variation of pace and depth like he did last year.
 
zagor said:
I'm gonna disagree with @Chanwan slightly in that while Nishikori was his usual flakey self in big matches and imploded on many of the key points (with a defeatist body language in the 4th set with slumped shoulders) more than a little of that was IMO due to Murray being Murray again ever since the match with Delpo.

I was switching back and forth between Stan ground and pounding Cilic and this match but what I saw from Murray was his usual routine of flying around court getting everything back mixed up with some controlled aggression from his underrated topspin FH, occasionally stepping into the court on the ROS, coming up with big 1st serves when he needed them, a few otherworldy lobs as Chanwan mentioned etc. He was also emotionally very invested into the match, both pumping himself up with cmons and berrating himself (by cursing and hitting his thigh) while in some of his losses this year he was quite listless.

Overall I'd say a big difference between this Murray and the one we saw against Fognini in Rome for example, I definitely feel he's rounding himself into slam winning form again. I'd favour Stan in the SF but wouldn't be exactly shocked if Murray defuses his power and drives him crazy with variation of pace and depth like he did last year.
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you're probably right, as I said, I only saw from 6-5 in the 3rd. @Sysyphus
 
veroniquem said:
Oh let's not start playing games now, shall we? I'm talking best clay returner of the season (Schwartz), clay master finalist (Vinolas) and only guy who has beaten Nadal this season (Thiem).
Kuz and Klizan have not even passed a round in clay masters.
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If you're gonna keep mentioning the Schwartz return, then don't forget to mention his hold game, again:

Schwartz who can also boost a, let's hear it,.....drumroll please........... 65 % win rate in his own service games on clay this year. Yeah, that guy.

(also, Rafa is the best clay returner this year. He's played far tougher competition than Schwartz. And with his RG campaign, I'm sure he's above him in the stats by now anyhow).

finally, ARV was on a 4 match losing streak coming into RG. Hardly very tough competition since Muzz' 1st round victim took him out in one of those. You're kidding yourself if you think he would have stood a better chance vs. Muzziah than vs. Djokovic.

I also don't understand why you're so hurt over the Djoko loss. Normally, you're salty if
1) Fed is winning something
2) Rafa and Novak are out
Here, Rafa is still the main man to win it and Fed is nowhere to be seen. Cheer up, chin up and be happy
 
Chanwan said:
If you're gonna keep mentioning the Schwartz return, then don't forget to mention his hold game, again:

Schwartz who can also boost a, let's hear it,.....drumroll please........... 65 % win rate in his own service games on clay this year. Yeah, that guy.

(also, Rafa is the best clay returner this year. He's played far tougher competition than Schwartz. And with his RG campaign, I'm sure he's above him in the stats by now anyhow).
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Return game is always a lot more relevant on clay than service game.
 
veroniquem said:
Return game is always a lot more relevant on clay than service game.
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Nope, @Gary Duane , care to do the explaining?
Disregarding that Djokovic is 3 % ahead in total, what you rather have a high percentage in and why on clay. Serve or return?
Djoko's 79 % hold game combined with a 31 % return game on clay this year?
Or Schwartzman's 65 % and 42 %?

Vero, also see my edited additions to the post you responded to.
 
Mainad said:
Lol..he could barely survive little Diego Schwartzman. Wonder how he would have handled Delpo? :rolleyes:
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I'd hardly call winning the last two sets 6-1 "barely surviving" Mainad and I'm fairly certain he'd have got past Delpo too. I did think during his match against Thiem that he was a little unlucky with the way the draw panned out but after seeing the way he played in the 3rd set I think Nishikori and Cilic would've probably beaten him as well. Shame he didn't get Nadal's draw instead. ;)
 
Djokovic2011 said:
I'd hardly call winning the last two sets 6-1 "barely surviving" Mainad and I'm fairly certain he'd have got past Delpo too. I did think during his match against Thiem that he was a little unlucky with the way the draw panned out but after seeing the way he played in the 3rd set I think Nishikori and Cilic would've probably beaten him as well. Shame he didn't get Nadal's draw instead. ;)
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Well, he was a bit lucky that Schwartzman ran out of gas in those last 2 sets but relax, I've been mainly trying to administer a bit of a reality check and some emergency treatment for an acute case of butthurt that veroniquem is suffering from at the moment. She's not always as rational and as considered as you are when it comes to the subject of a certain Serbian tennis player ;)

Incidentally, I was really shocked when I watched that 3rd set against Thiem (didn't see the first 2). Novak looked totally spent mentally and emotionally and seemed to be tanking points with schoolboy howlers he would never have dreamed of committing this time last year. Very strange and very sad to witness!!! :(
 
veroniquem said:
Yep. Which is why best clay returner of all time (Nadal, #1 returner for a decade) has 9 RG titles and #1 clay server (Isner) has 0.
ETA: also why 3 of the 4 semi finalists are higher ranked returners on clay than servers.
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What would you rather have? A 90-30, a 80-40 or a 70-50 distribution? I'd say the former.
The return is obviously important and it's a major weapon and you can't do well on clay without it. But the reason Rafa is the best clay courter is because his return game is 10 % better than anyone else most years (winning 40+ % on a regular basis). No one comes close to those return numbers.
Rafa's 84-42 for his career. I'd say give me a player who's 92-34 and that player would beat Rafa more often than not (though needless to say, it would be close).

Again, @Gary Duane
 
Chanwan said:
What would you rather have? A 90-30, a 80-40 or a 70-50 distribution? I'd say the former.
The return is obviously important and it's a major weapon and you can't do well on clay without it. But the reason Rafa is the best clay courter is because his return game is 10 % better than anyone else most years (winning 40+ % on a regular basis). No one comes close to those return numbers.
Rafa's 84-42 for his career. I'd say give me a player who's 92-34 and that player would beat Rafa more often than not (though needless to say, it would be close).

Again, @Gary Duane
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Once again. Nadal top clay returner, very far from top clay server: 9 titles.
You have to learn to drop your case when you're WRONG.
And I bet Raonic will never win RG either...
 
Mainad said:
Well, he was a bit lucky that Schwartzman ran out of gas in those last 2 sets but relax, I've been mainly trying to administer a bit of a reality check and some emergency treatment for an acute case of butthurt that veroniquem is suffering from at the moment. She's not always as rational and as considered as you are when it comes to the subject of a certain Serbian tennis player ;)

Incidentally, I was really shocked when I watched that 3rd set against Thiem (didn't see the first 2). Novak looked totally spent mentally and emotionally and seemed to be tanking points with schoolboy howlers he would never have dreamed of committing this time last year. Very strange and very sad to witness!!! :(
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It was very sad to witness indeed - you'd have thought being the defending champion would've made him want to fight a bit harder if nothing else! I had a feeling before the tournament started that he'd only get to the 4R/QF so losing today wasn't that surprising to me nor did it really bother me that much (especially against an excellent clay courter like Thiem), it was more the manner in which he lost and the lack of effort in that 3rd set that was so painful to watch, especially from such a great champion (I'm with Johnny Mac on this one). Oh well, us Nole fans just have to try and remain positive that things will soon turn around but in the meantime I'm pleased for you and all the other Murray fans that Andy seems to have recaptured some of his form, even though I hope my Austrian prince beats him in the final. :p
 
Everything Kei does Murray does better. Murray can lose if he has a bad day and Kei has a great one, but I'd bet on Murray for winning matches on average.
 
veroniquem said:
Once again. Nadal top clay returner, very far from top clay server: 9 titles.
You have to learn to drop your case when you're WRONG.
And I bet Raonic will never win RG either...
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that's rich coming from you.

My point: A 90-30 distribution is better than an 80-40 distribution regardless of surface.
But when the guys winning 90 % are only winning 20 % of their return games, that ain't helping much (Milos is 17 % this year, so of course he ain't winning anything, 19 % for his career).

Usually, a great clay courter won't have a 90 % hold game though, so in that respect, you're right (happy?).

But when evaluating Schwartsman as a threat, which is where we came from, it doesn't make him more dangerous than say, ARV, who's 76-30 compared to Scwartzman at 65-42.
 
Chanwan said:
But when evaluating Schwartsman as a threat, which is where we came from, it doesn't make him more dangerous than say, ARV, who's 76-30 compared to Scwartzman at 65-42.
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Yes Vinolas was even more of a threat than Schwartz and both of them were in Djoko's quarter. My point.
 
Mainad said:
Glad you agree then that Murray achieved a significant victory today against a player who could just as easily have beaten him (and possibly Djokovic too). :)
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Er no, we agree that Murray scored a mildly significant victory vs a player as out of form as he is ;)
 
veroniquem said:
Yes Vinolas was even more of a threat than Schwartz and both of them were in Djoko's quarter. My point.
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as usual, you take whatever you can and twist it. ARV was on a 4 match losing streak coming in, including to Muzz' first round opponent (and to Muzz). He's also hardly ever won a big match iirc.
You have no case for Djoko having a tougher draw before the quarters. Outside of Rafa, he had the easiest draw pre-QF.
night
 
Gary Duane said:
Everything Kei does Murray does better. Murray can lose if he has a bad day and Kei has a great one, but I'd bet on Murray for winning matches on average.
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not really, kei's fh is better and his BH DTL is better(though maybe not the overall BH).
He's more aggressive in general than Murray.
 
Chanwan said:
as usual, you take whatever you can and twist it. ARV was on a 4 match losing streak coming in, including to Muzz' first round opponent (and to Muzz). He's also hardly ever won a big match iirc.
You have no case for Djoko having a tougher draw before the quarters. Outside of Rafa, he had the easiest draw pre-QF.
night
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Vinolas was in a master final this season and beat Murray on clay. What has Kuznetsov done? Klizan? Nishi? Night.
.
 
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