Foot fault question (ugh)

Random Guy99

New User
I play with a group of guys who I'd say are at least .5 level higher than I; so I am grateful to be playing. We rotate on a weekly basis who we play against and it is just for fun; although I do like to put up resistance so as to not feel like I'm wasting my opponents time.

One of the guys (I'll call him Ed) in the group servers considerably hardly than everyone else, very much so in fact. His serves are so much harder I have a difficult time clearly seeing if his serves are in or out; so I wind up conceding many aces on serves I'd challenge if hawkeye were available. I have watched him serve (to try to figure out how he does it); and I was surprised to see that he foot faults frequently, but not by a ton.

I played with one of my other hitting partners yesterday and for the first time ever decided to try and see if I could detect foot faults while returning serve. To my surprise, I was clearly able to see him consistently FF. It is not a problem with him though, he does ace me some times, but I at least feel I have an opportunity to return his serves and I can clearly tell if his serves are in or out.

When I play Ed, I am considering watching him for FF. If I clearly see his serve land in or on the line obviously I'll play the point. But if he blasts a serve that I suspect may be out but I can't see it 100% clearly out, but I can't see it 100% in either; and I saw him FF, I'm thinking of calling a fault.

Would I be in the wrong? I am generous on giving my opponents line calls; but being generous on two lines on a single ball strikes me as being taken advantage of.

Thx for any thoughts on this.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
You said it's for fun. Well then, play for fun.
Calling a foot fault is going to make it all serious real fast. Which means tension and no fun for anyone.
So if his continued foot faults are too much for you and it is no longer fun for you, then quit playing with them (but I suggest you don't burn any bridges on your way out).
 

Random Guy99

New User
Couple pts -
1) it's for fun - that's the thing. My hitting partner played Ed and commented it was no fun playing him getting aced off the court; his thought was Ed should take a bit off his serve so we can at least have rallies longer than 3 shots.
2) Charity seems a bit harsh to describe it - I filled in and was asked to come back. I repeatedly made it clear if they found a better player or I was not a worth while opponent to please get some one else.
3) I will let it slide. Actually - I'll try to do a better job of seeing where the ball lands with 100% certainty - and then getting return back into play.
Thx for the thoughts.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
Couple pts -
1) it's for fun - that's the thing. My hitting partner played Ed and commented it was no fun playing him getting aced off the court; his thought was Ed should take a bit off his serve so we can at least have rallies longer than 3 shots.
Did you try just standing 10ft+ behind the baseline to return?
I'd love to have a guy like that to play against... it would only make my game stronger.
Does it suck playing a guy that holds at love regularly? yes. but it makes me focus on my own service game,... maybe grind him down and take out his legs so his serve loses a bit of pop later in the match.
 

Bluefan75

Professional
This is the part that sucks. A footfault is as much a fault as hitting the ball in the net, but apparently this is the thing that gets let go. I watch for it, because it is good to have if the guy is a hooker or really starts to question line calls. If they're playing straight up, I might say something afterwards, especially if it's egregious. Last match I played was like that, I know the guy so that helps, but just said "you're too good a player to be doing this on your serve." Says he had no idea. I'll give the benefit of the doubt, cause nothing else suggested trying to pull a fast one.

But seriously, if a guy can't get his serve without the footfault, is he really a level up?
 

OrangePower

Legend
Foot faults are a touchy topic.

I personally will never call a foot fault on an opponent, even in a match. The other day I was playing a dubs match and my partner noticed one of our opponents habitually foot faulting, and was wondering whether to call him on it. My take is that (1) it's hard to be 100% sure when you are looking from across the net, and (2) there is no better way to set a confrontational mood to a match than by calling a FF. I just don't think it's worth it.

During practice, I will let teammates know if I see them foot faulting, more as an FYI than anything.
 

Bluefan75

Professional
Foot faults are a touchy topic.

I personally will never call a foot fault on an opponent, even in a match. The other day I was playing a dubs match and my partner noticed one of our opponents habitually foot faulting, and was wondering whether to call him on it. My take is that (1) it's hard to be 100% sure when you are looking from across the net, and (2) there is no better way to set a confrontational mood to a match than by calling a FF. I just don't think it's worth it.

During practice, I will let teammates know if I see them foot faulting, more as an FYI than anything.

Then I have to wonder if the guys you are playing are trying not to FF but are just slipping, or they really are trying to gain an edge by keeping it subtle.

The ones I have played with, are so obvious it's not even funny. I'm talking more than half of their foot down on the court well before they hit.

If a guy is a hooker, and starts challenging my calls, I really hope the situation arises where I can just say, "Since I've broken all your service games since you footfault everytime, I'll just serve my games and see if you can break me enough to win." But that's when a hooker has already made it confrontational.
 
Just reading Harry Hoppman's book, he says foot faulting makes a tremendous difference in gaining an edge, even if they don't s&v. He was one of the greatest coaches and also a champion, I trust he knows what he is talking about. Losing to a cheater is not MY idea of fun tennis. If I was ff'ing I would be greatly appreciative of someone informing me. You can't be looking at the ball and your foot at the same time. If you're a tournament player you don't want to have that bad habit--it will bite you when the roving umpire calls you on it. You should mention it to him, and if he is unappreciative of your trying to help him, then he is no one you want to be on the court with, life's too short. Probably best if you talk to him off-court about it rather then in the heat of a match. Just casually say to him, "There's something you may not be aware of that you're doing..." If he doesn't like hearing it, lose him.
 

OrangePower

Legend
Then I have to wonder if the guys you are playing are trying not to FF but are just slipping, or they really are trying to gain an edge by keeping it subtle.

The ones I have played with, are so obvious it's not even funny. I'm talking more than half of their foot down on the court well before they hit.

If a guy is a hooker, and starts challenging my calls, I really hope the situation arises where I can just say, "Since I've broken all your service games since you footfault everytime, I'll just serve my games and see if you can break me enough to win." But that's when a hooker has already made it confrontational.

The particular opponent I'm thinking of was actually worse on 2nd serve than on 1st, and had a pretty weak 2nd. It was his back foot coming about a half a foot into the court. My guess is when he was younger he would get some lift and his back foot would come around while he was in the air, but now (50 ish) he is firmly planted to the ground. So I don't think he was trying to get an edge, and his serve could be attacked as is.

My partner mentioned it to me since he was doing it on 2nd serve meaning that many of his service points would actually have been double faults had there been an official there to make the call. But I don't think I would want to win points that way, and for don't want to set an ugly tone for a match.
 

Jim A

Professional
Really you are going to worry about calling Foot faults when you can't tell if his serve was in?? We had one guy who made it his thing to be the one who called it all the time, and we stopped playing with him. We all foot fault on occasion, even the pros (especially the pros?) heck if I get a notice from my opponents it usually winds up fixing my issues with my front foot. I think that's occurred maybe 3-4x over the years. Even this year at Districts we had people who were coming over, but we were winning (because we're cheaters per Starzel) so why fire someone up. Let the official be the person who delivers the news, they are still going to warn you as much as possible.

We had one guy in Mixed District's a few years back who was calling it over and over and I was so far back (18") from the line I wasn't even close to it but he was calling....we had an official come on for the tiebreak and the official called his partner & fiance' for a footfault on both serves after warning on the first time around and we went from 7-6 to 9-6 and closed it out 10-6.
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
I sometimes think I can see a foot fault from the baseline, but I would not be sure enough to call it. The timing is tricky. You do not hear the sound of the ball being hit until about 1/10 a second after the hit. You really need to see both the foot and the ball strike to be sure.

Now, when playing the net in doubles, one has a much better view and I can call it with confidence. I'll usually give a polite warning first.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
If you're happy to play in that group with those player's, just learn to move forwards, see the ball better, now it's bounce height, and get your racket back sooner.
I used to play with a 4.5 with a name Tim Cannon. Yes, he is 6'4" and 220lbs., played baseball for college, could serve pretty big, and footfault pretty badly. But so what? We're playing for fun and practice, and practicing against his serve, my returns got better. Everyone knew he footfaulted, as did I, so I just got MY game up to snuff.
Be happy you get the chance to practice against a big serve and not have to pay for it.
 
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Nashvegas

Guest
The kicker with foot faults is that so many people
don't realize they do it, most would like to know so they can stop doing it, and no one wants to point it out.
 
If none of those guys play league or tournaments, I can see why nobody cares. But if they do, sooner or later, probably in districts or playoffs, someone is either going to call them or call over an official. And if a big match is the first time they have to watch themselves for footfaults, it'll get in their head.
 

Gemini

Hall of Fame
The kicker with foot faults is that so many people
don't realize they do it, most would like to know so they can stop doing it, and no one wants to point it out.

Also, another kicker is a lot of people refuse to believe that they indeed to foot fault. It's a touchy subject. If I'm the OP, I'd have to gauge what type of person the foot-faulter is. And I wouldn't call it during match play but I would probably find a way to point it out after we're done playing just as an fyi.
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
A lot of things would have to happen before i'd consider calling a foot fault.

-It would have to be at playoff levels or higher, in USTA league. They will have roaming refs at this level, so they would be calling it to.
-The person would have to be getting some advantage from it, like if they are a big server or very tall. The taller you are and the harder you serve, the more advantage you get by foot faulting.
-The person would have to be clearly making no attempt to stay behind the line; heel almost completely over the line for most people.
-If im playing this person in a match, they should know better.

There are a lot of lower level people who probably arnt even aware they're foot faulting because they lack the athletic ability to know where their body is. Pros will get called on foot faults even with a tiny bit of their shoe the line. Low level rec players could be almost over the line completely and not even notice it. Suffice to say, foot faulting is an infraction, and if you're doing it, you shouldnt be too surprised if it's called on you. Roaming refs LOVE to call these, so dont be surprised. Every time I go to a playoff i'll hear at least 4-5 foot faults called every hour in the first day of play across all the different courts/levels.
 

HRB

Hall of Fame
If you are watching someone's feet, then it is no wonder you can't return their serves.

As for foot faults....I say keep them in your "back pocket"...as in don't call them, UNLESS your opponent is a D-Bag who makes bad calls on lines, your serves, etc...then if they are you can break out break out a sentence like this: "well not for nothing, but you foot fault every time, so if you wanna continue making sketchy calls I'll just call your constant foot faults, and we'll call it even".

If they are like a constant Foot Faulter I know it'll screw up there whole serve from there and you'll own them.

If they are nice guys, and you just can't handle their serve focus on the BALL, and positioning and work on your returns, don't look to a crutch like blaming it on foot faults.
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
I've been playing for 18 years and I have NEVER noticed a player footfaulting, not even the very infamous guy at my club who takes a full step inside the court to serve. I only ever noticed him footfaulting while watching him play someone else.

I don't think a significant advantage is gotten by footfaulting, and I mean the regular footfaults (toe touches the line, half the foot goes across), so my advice is let it go, UNLESS its a case like my infamous friend over here. The next time I played him at a club tournament, I let him now from the get go that I would call him on footfaults if he stepped on the court. He didnt like it and he DID have a horrible time serving; serves him right (see what I did there?).
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
If you are going to be "letter of the law strict" on one rule (foot faults), you'd better be prepared to be strict on all the rules. And tennis has a lot of rules. For example, as a server, I'm more annoyed with my opponent purposefully doing the all too common gamesmanship thing, not playing at my pace, and making me wait to serve.

Personally, I foot fault on every serve until somebody (a roving umpire) says something. Then I back off the line 6 inches and never think about it again.

I'd be shocked if Harry Hopman could prove to me that I gain an advantage with my 1"-2" foot fault, because I notice no difference
 
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Nashvegas

Guest
I don't agree with a lot of what you said r2473, but I do like your plucky spirit!
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I don't agree with a lot of what you said r2473, but I do like your plucky spirit!
As a big server, another thing that pisses me off about guys like the OP is, that he can't tell if the serve is in or out, so he plays a lot of serves that are probably out, but he's not 100% sure. Sounds great in theory. Just trying to be fair. In practice I can tell you what is actually happening. He's returning serves that are clearly out. As a server, you don't get ready to play these returns, because the serve was so obviously out. So by the time you realize the ball is live, you didn't move your feet and are in no position to make a return. Of course if he returns the serve and hits it out, or you hit a winner, he just calls the serve out. A win/win for him, and a very frustrating situation for the server.

I've just taken to preparing and returning anything the returner puts into play, even if my serve was a foot out, because you have to play the returners call no matter how bad it is

@Jim A is right. Your eagle eye can spot a foot fault from the other side of the net, but can't tell is the serve was good. I'd probably start serving underhand to you from against the back fence
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
As a big server, another thing that pisses me off about guys like the OP is, that he can't tell if the serve is in or out, so he plays a lot of serves that are probably out, but he's not 100% sure. Sounds great in theory. Just trying to be fair. In practice I can tell you what is actually happening. He's returning serves that are clearly out. As a server, you don't get ready to play these returns, because the serve was so obviously out. So by the time you realize the ball is live, you didn't move your feet and are in no position to make a return. Of course if he returns the serve and hits it out, or you hit a winner, he just calls the serve out. A win/win for him, and a very frustrating situation for the server.

I've just taken to preparing and returning anything the returner puts into play, even if my serve was a foot out, because you have to play the returners call no matter how bad it is

@Jim A is right. Your eagle eye can spot a foot fault from the other side of the net, but can't tell is the serve was good. I'd probably start serving underhand to you from against the back fence
I don't think this is an issue as long as returner is consistently and quickly calling the ball out. ie can't let them get 2 chances by delaying calls by a second. then you can just presume the ball is always in.

some folks try that crap even with my slow 90mph serve and I call then out on it quickly.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
if someone is blatantly foot faulting (usually a serve and volleyer rushing into net), I just stand 1ft inside the baseline and start my service motion.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
I don't think this is an issue as long as returner is consistently and quickly calling the ball out. ie can't let them get 2 chances by delaying calls by a second. then you can just presume the ball is always in.

some folks try that crap even with my slow 90mph serve and I call then out on it quickly.
Easy to make logical arguments behind the keyboard, but on the court, logic takes a back seat to emotion. As soon as a confrontation starts, it takes on a life of its own. And so many people are just waiting (provoking) something before they even step on the court.

Na, I just let people do what they need to do. This stuff isn't a big deal unless you let it be. Instead, when I notice people do their gamesmanship, I see it as a positive. They are showing fear and resorting to desperate nontennis tactics. Something you don't do against a guy you don't worry about. Instead I tell myself that what I'm doing is obviously working against them and it encourages me to continue to impose my game plan and will on them until they mentally break
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
if someone is blatantly foot faulting (usually a serve and volleyer rushing into net), I just stand 1ft inside the baseline and start my service motion.

I do NOT FF [at least, I don't think I do]! :)

Actually, I videod myself and I would occasionally drag my back foot even with and sometimes even past my front foot. I then started with my front foot several inches behind the BL to make sure that I didn't FF.

Of course, that's horrible serve technique and I'm working on fixing that.
 

Bluefan75

Professional
I do NOT FF [at least, I don't think I do]! :)

Actually, I videod myself and I would occasionally drag my back foot even with and sometimes even past my front foot. I then started with my front foot several inches behind the BL to make sure that I didn't FF.

Of course, that's horrible serve technique and I'm working on fixing that.

That's what ticks me off about it. I work hard on my serve to not footfault, and yet there seems to not only be *no* incentive to not footfault, it's socially unacceptable to point it out.

And not only are there physics advantages to footfaulting(being even that little bit closer to the net can give just the margin needed to clear), you also have the fact the person can be free and loose and not worrying about anything when serving. I hit great forehands. When I don't need to worry about keeping them in the court. I'd be up there with Federer and Del Potro, if the balls that hit 6" past the baseline could count. But they don't, and while I'm working on my technique, I have to be just that little bit careful in order to keep it in. Why does the server get a free pass?
 
Personally, I foot fault on every serve until somebody (a roving umpire) says something. Then I back off the line 6 inches and never think about it again.

I'd be shocked if Harry Hopman could prove to me that I gain an advantage with my 1"-2" foot fault, because I notice no difference
"...he has stepped inside the base line, thereby gaining from one to three feet of space over which the ball must travel." H. Hopman, 1975
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Friendly game, I will not say anything or just mention it but not call a fault.

League or tourney doubles match, I will warn if more than 2". After warn, I would call FF greater than 2".
I serve out of platform stance and practice to avoid FF. I expect the same from opponents. I am not concerned if your toe clips the line but if you get a big chunk of foot on the line, you are cheating so stop it.
 

Random Guy99

New User
I'd like to make a couple responses...
1) I have only one time checked to see if I could tell if my hitting partner was FF. In this sample size of one, he'd toss the ball, take 2 small steps so both feet were over the line and into the court, then hit the ball. He doesn't jump on his serve. If he jumped instead of taking 2 small steps he'd land on the same spot and his serve would be fine. Frankly, I was shocked I could see FF so clearly. I will check other hitting partners to see if I can tell or not. (ANd yes, I've harped on him to start jumping. He plays like 6 days a week...but whatever, not my problem.)

2) If I can't call a serve out before my return of serve gets to the net then I eat it, whatever happens. I am sorry if you see your serve as out, code says I have to be 100% sure and if your serve has a lot of pace and is well located and I am lunging for it, your serve is good.

3) Often times after a rally I'll ask if one of my particular shots earlier in rally was out in case opponent realized it too late and didn't make the call. (But I only do this in "friendlies")

4) I was not looking to call FF against "Ed", but on the very small chance I could detect it without affecting my return; if I saw a FF (which would be more than miniscule for me to notice); and I thought the serve was out but only 90% sure it was out; then I'd call it out...

5) I'd consider FFing myself, but that just brings bad habits into my game. I need to video my serve. My front foot is right up to the line, I toss ball, bring back foot up to front foot, jump and serve. Really, is it that difficult to keep behind the line? I don't get it.

6) Before every match I play I shake opponents hand and offer the worlds "gentlemen's match...if you disagree with any of my calls please let me know. I'm not here to hook you. I never have a problem with anybody and I'd like to keep it that way." In fact, in one USTA match the women were waiting for us to finish and I was in 3rd set tie-breaker. I hit a serve that was out and my opponent started walking to other side conceding the pt as an ace. I called a fault on myself. I overheard one of the women say that'd never happen in womens usta...

I do everything I can to get the maximum out of my game. That is why I made this post. I will check to see if I notice FF, but that will be the end of it. Thx for the thoughts!
 

OrangePower

Legend
6) Before every match I play I shake opponents hand and offer the worlds "gentlemen's match...if you disagree with any of my calls please let me know. I'm not here to hook you. I never have a problem with anybody and I'd like to keep it that way."
I agree with everything in your post, but if someone were to say something like that to me before a match, that would be an immediate red flag!
It's like a politician starting a speech with "Now I'm going to give you all the honest truth..." - you just know the rest is going to be doublespeak! :)
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
Friendly game, I will not say anything or just mention it but not call a fault.

League or tourney doubles match, I will warn if more than 2". After warn, I would call FF greater than 2".
I serve out of platform stance and practice to avoid FF. I expect the same from opponents. I am not concerned if your toe clips the line but if you get a big chunk of foot on the line, you are cheating so stop it.

To be fair, im not sure you could see 2" unless you were at net in doubles. The thinnest a baselines width can be is about 1" and the maximum it can be is about 4". Since most lines are not under 2" in width, you'd basically be calling people for being "on the line" and wont have many friends for doing so.

You should consider the "heel rule", where you only call it if their heel is on the line, which means the majority of their shoe is OVER the line.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
This is how the Code handles it:

24. Foot Faults. A player may warn an opponent that the opponent has committed a flagrant foot fault. If the foot faulting continues, the player may attempt to locate an official. If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults. Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of a player’s personal honor system. The plea that a Server should not be penalized because the server only just touched the line and did not rush the net is not acceptable. Habitual foot faulting, whether intentional or careless, is just as surely cheating as is making a deliberate bad line call. http://www.newengland.usta.com/Yout...e_The_Players_Guide_for_Unofficiated_Matches/

Now there clearly is an inconsistency here. It first mentions "flagrant" footfaults, then it says that the excuse that the server merely touched the line is invalid.

My experience over many years of playing is that in a friendly match, you let it go. In a competition, you let it go if it is minor. The problem is if it is a flagrant abuse by someone who is clearly getting an advantage from it. I had that situation in a club doubles tourney when the son on a father/son team was taking two giant steps into the court while serving. He was a teen and I think it was inadvertent, so I politely mentioned to the dad that he was footfaulting prettty badly and could they watch it. The dad exploded on me, accused me of gamesmanship, etc etc refused to shake hands after the match. Total dick but that is the risk you run.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
That's what ticks me off about it. I work hard on my serve to not footfault, and yet there seems to not only be *no* incentive to not footfault, it's socially unacceptable to point it out.

And not only are there physics advantages to footfaulting(being even that little bit closer to the net can give just the margin needed to clear), you also have the fact the person can be free and loose and not worrying about anything when serving. I hit great forehands. When I don't need to worry about keeping them in the court. I'd be up there with Federer and Del Potro, if the balls that hit 6" past the baseline could count. But they don't, and while I'm working on my technique, I have to be just that little bit careful in order to keep it in. Why does the server get a free pass?
Foot faulting can't be equated to in/out calls.

Perhaps a more apt comparison is to taking more than the allotted time between points. The reasons people do this are many. For some it is a fitness issue. For others it is a rhythm issue (they just "feel good" playing at that slow pace). For others it is a gamesmanship issue (as I alluded to above with people not playing at my pace).

Is slow play against the rules? Yes. Am I going to start carrying a stopwatch and call for an official if you are 1 second over the time limit (or 1 inch on the baseline)? Of course not, that would be absurd.

However, if you start taking 2 minutes between points or stepping a foot into the court, then there might be something to talk about.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
"...he has stepped inside the base line, thereby gaining from one to three feet of space over which the ball must travel." H. Hopman, 1975
Fair enough.

Let me ask you this. If you are so concerned about the advantage someone is getting by stepping an inch or so over the line, do you meticulously measure the net height to ensure it is PRECISELY the correct height in all points. Because if you don't, then it is pretty clear that you aren't really concerned with this at all. It is really just an emotional response ("he's breaking the rules.....he's cheating me.....I'll get him").
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
I play with a group of guys who I'd say are at least .5 level higher than I; so I am grateful to be playing. We rotate on a weekly basis who we play against and it is just for fun; although I do like to put up resistance so as to not feel like I'm wasting my opponents time.

One of the guys (I'll call him Ed) in the group servers considerably hardly than everyone else, very much so in fact. His serves are so much harder I have a difficult time clearly seeing if his serves are in or out; so I wind up conceding many aces on serves I'd challenge if hawkeye were available. I have watched him serve (to try to figure out how he does it); and I was surprised to see that he foot faults frequently, but not by a ton.

I played with one of my other hitting partners yesterday and for the first time ever decided to try and see if I could detect foot faults while returning serve. To my surprise, I was clearly able to see him consistently FF. It is not a problem with him though, he does ace me some times, but I at least feel I have an opportunity to return his serves and I can clearly tell if his serves are in or out.

When I play Ed, I am considering watching him for FF. If I clearly see his serve land in or on the line obviously I'll play the point. But if he blasts a serve that I suspect may be out but I can't see it 100% clearly out, but I can't see it 100% in either; and I saw him FF, I'm thinking of calling a fault.

Would I be in the wrong? I am generous on giving my opponents line calls; but being generous on two lines on a single ball strikes me as being taken advantage of.

Thx for any thoughts on this.
there Is NO such thing as footfault in amateur tennis. this especially true in singles. you can't clearly see over the net and see the footfault, it is Impossible and is against USTA rules
 

Alexrb

Professional
there Is NO such thing as footfault in amateur tennis. this especially true in singles. you can't clearly see over the net and see the footfault, it is Impossible and is against USTA rules

I watched an open tournament, and the semi-finalist was a righty server with a funky foot motion. Every time, his right foot would slide well past the line before he served (pin-point I think it's called). Not one person called him out on it, and it was so bad I noticed.

I think people realize the advantage isn't huge, and if they can't beat them regardless it isn't worth mentioning.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
Easy to make logical arguments behind the keyboard, but on the court, logic takes a back seat to emotion. As soon as a confrontation starts, it takes on a life of its own. And so many people are just waiting (provoking) something before they even step on the court.

Na, I just let people do what they need to do. This stuff isn't a big deal unless you let it be. Instead, when I notice people do their gamesmanship, I see it as a positive. They are showing fear and resorting to desperate nontennis tactics. Something you don't do against a guy you don't worry about. Instead I tell myself that what I'm doing is obviously working against them and it encourages me to continue to impose my game plan and will on them until they mentally break
agreed.

so i've been the guy that "can't see the fast serve"... i've told my opponents up front that i might be calling out balls, in, because I'm not sure.
But i also assure them that i'll immediately make "out" calls.
This way i'm telling them, presume all balls are in, and if it's out, i won't make you waste energy rushing to the net, only to make a late call...

but i've also run into the late-call-gamesmanship-ploy which i immediately address (ie. make calls immediately).... otherwise i'll go into late-call-gamesmanship-mode myself.
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
Fair enough.

Let me ask you this. If you are so concerned about the advantage someone is getting by stepping an inch or so over the line, do you meticulously measure the net height to ensure it is PRECISELY the correct height in all points. Because if you don't, then it is pretty clear that you aren't really concerned with this at all. It is really just an emotional response ("he's breaking the rules.....he's cheating me.....I'll get him").

Both my opponent and I will serve on the same court with the same net, whether it's the precise height, or too low, or too high.

If I dont foot fault and he does, he does actually have an advantage.

A better comparison would be:

My opponent an I have a match on a court with no net strap. When we measure the net, it's actually high by 1 inch. He takes out a net strap from his bag, but only uses it when he is serving, and promptly removes it after he is done. This means I have to serve on a net that is 1 inch higher than he does. When I asked if I could borrow it for my service games, he cites a rule saying that "equipment is to not be shared". Would that bother me? Yes.
 
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there Is NO such thing as footfault in amateur tennis. this especially true in singles. you can't clearly see over the net and see the footfault, it is Impossible and is against USTA rules
troll, considering you are nostradamus, you can see EVERYTHING! i no longer believe you are THE nostradamus, you are an impostor, if you can't see the server taking two steps into the court then you need to call lucifer for your eye-exam. If I'm playing against you I will serve from the net since you believe there is no such thing as an ff
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Both my opponent and I will serve on the same court with the same net, whether it's the precise height, or too low, or too high.

If I dont foot fault and he does, he does actually have an advantage.

A better comparison would be:

My opponent an I have a match on a court with no net strap. When we measure the net, it's actually high by 1 inch. He takes out a net strap from his bag, but only uses it when he is serving, and promptly removes it after he is done. This means I have to serve on a net that is 1 inch higher than he does. When I asked if I could borrow it for my service games, he cites a rule saying that "equipment is to not be shared". Would that bother me? Yes.
No. If I'm a flat ball hitter that barely has any net clearance and you are a moonballer, then the lower than legal net clearly favors me. This is just one example. But in general, the person that is better at exploiting the deviation from the rules will benefit. The only fair way to play is by the rules. If you are going to be concerned with the rules, don't pick and choose. Fixating on one and rationalizing others away. This type of inconsistency really makes people angry.

not my job
only one to three feet on the other side of the net, not a big deal
You're being inconsistent.

"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
The key to all of this is right here in your signature line. The mental rigors of a tennis match will bring out all sorts of absurdities in people. Sometimes it's being fixated on someone foot faulting by an inch. Sometimes it's being overly concerned with another little thing. But it's interesting how the very same person that is FIXATED on a certain rule can shrug their shoulders at another rule being broken and say "it doesn't really matter".

Tennis is a very interesting sport on so many levels.
 
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NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
No. If I'm a flat ball hitter that barely has any net clearance and you are a moonballer, then the lower than legal net clearly favors me. If you are going to be concerned with the rules, don't pick and choose. Fixating on one and rationalizing others away. This type of inconsistency really makes people angry.

-Tom said that foot faulting will give a player an advantage.
-You said that unless he measures the height of the net each time he plays, he cant be concerned with a foot fault advantage.

Your counter argument is horrible because both players are assumed to play on the same court equally, whereas both players are not expected to be foot faulting. A better analogy would be a tennis match where players do not change sides and one side of the court is actually a foot longer than the other. That's basically what happens when one person foot faults and the other does not.

You can argue that one person is favored by certain style of shot selection, but that has nothing to do with the rules. It is both legal to hit flat and moonball, whereas it is not league to foot fault. It's legal to drop shot an old lady, but it's not legal to foot fault when you are serving to her.

So, if you hit an OH at the net, and hit the net on your follow through, but your opponent had no play on the ball--Is it a net? Hitting the net in that way neither hindered nor helped either player, so actually no player had any advantage. Would you not claim the point even though the net touch occurred before the ball bounced twice?
 
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