foot faults in an NTRP match

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mikefl

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Today I played in an NTRP tournament. I watched my next opponent play someone else before our match and noticed that he was foot faulting on every single server. Like one of those foot faults where the right handed player brings that right foot around to about a foot inside the baseline to launch into the serve.

When an official walked by I pointed this out to him and he basically told me they don't worry about it for NTRP matches unless the opponent complains. I don't know about you guys, but when I am returning serve it is impossible for me to detect a foot fault as I am watching their upper body and the ball.

In my opinion the official should have atleast informed the player that he was foot faulting and to be more careful. When I played him, I let it go and didn't complain to the official but am wondering if I should have. Would it have been in bad taste to complain? I'm sure I will face this opponent again in the next few weeks.

If it is just a little shuffle that brings them a few inches fine, but if they are actually stepping in and launching a foot in front of the baseline, that is pretty egregious and they are using it to get an advantage.

I couldn't believe the official just ignored it when I pointed it out to him. Isn't that their purpose there?

I mean sure, it is an ntrp match and not an ATP match, but the rules are pretty clear. you have to serve from behind the baseline. In a sanctioned tournament like this, where I am paying for the officials with my entry fee, shouldn't they be officiating when a participant points out that a rule is being broken?
 
If you play him, just tell the guy he foot faults badly. Tell his captain and your own captain that you want an official because you believe that the guy foot faults. They won't go on prior viewing of his foot faults; only his opponent can request an official. If they say No..., then start foot faulting like he does. Aside from this, there is nothing you should do since you are not playing him.
 
A spectator is not supposed to point out rules violations to officials. They are supposed to call footfaults if they are at their position at the net post, and if they do, they are supposed to stick around to watch the other player serve so as to be even-handed.

Can you imagine what a roving official's day would be like if they had to respond to every complaint of a spectator?

The official was right not to intervene.

When you play that person, you have a decision to make: Either you watch for footfaults and then call a roving official, or you suck it up and deal. After all, if it is truly a "flagrant" footfault, it shouldn't be at all difficult for you to see the footfault and also be ready to return serve.
 
mikefl said:
Today I played in an NTRP tournament. I watched my next opponent play someone else before our match and noticed that he was foot faulting on every single server. Like one of those foot faults where the right handed player brings that right foot around to about a foot inside the baseline to launch into the serve.

When an official walked by I pointed this out to him and he basically told me they don't worry about it for NTRP matches unless the opponent complains. I don't know about you guys, but when I am returning serve it is impossible for me to detect a foot fault as I am watching their upper body and the ball.

In my opinion the official should have atleast informed the player that he was foot faulting and to be more careful. When I played him, I let it go and didn't complain to the official but am wondering if I should have. Would it have been in bad taste to complain? I'm sure I will face this opponent again in the next few weeks.

If it is just a little shuffle that brings them a few inches fine, but if they are actually stepping in and launching a foot in front of the baseline, that is pretty egregious and they are using it to get an advantage.

I couldn't believe the official just ignored it when I pointed it out to him. Isn't that their purpose there?

I mean sure, it is an ntrp match and not an ATP match, but the rules are pretty clear. you have to serve from behind the baseline. In a sanctioned tournament like this, where I am paying for the officials with my entry fee, shouldn't they be officiating when a participant points out that a rule is being broken?
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Agree, if the official is present, he is supposed to Warn first then if repeated then call foot fault. That is the what they are there for. if they didn't do that immediate firing of that official is in order and you must protest the match and call the tournament refreee and organizer.
 
I would say a shocking amount of people foot fault. In my experience, ~25% or more in some matches/tournaments. That said, only a fraction of the people among those who foot fault regularly actually gin any advantage from it. Etiquette wise it's a difficult subject... I would only say something (nicely) if someone was gaining an advantage from it. If they're jerks about it, just start serving from inside the court right on top of the net and say you both agree not to call foot faults.
 
Nostradamus said:
Agree, if the official is present, he is supposed to Warn first then if repeated then call foot fault.

... if they didn't do that immediate firing of that official is in order and you must protest the match and call the tournament refreee and organizer.
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HUH ??? I've heard officials call ff's, from behind the fence, with NO warning. Most tournaments I've played, in unless they are category 1 or 2's, only have one referee, so you'd be asking him to fire himself. If you went to the tournament organizer and asked him to fire his tournament referee, he would probably laugh in your face, and not let you in his tournament next year. I think what your're talking about is unofficiated matches, where players need to warn opponents that they are ff'ing before calling it on them. Nostro, you may be prognosticating, this may be what it's like in your future.
 
A rule is a rule. Enforce it or drop it at USTA levels. If a ball hits the line is it in or is 'USTA out' acceptable because it happens so often? I agree that a huge percentage of people FF and rarely does someone mention it other than for gamesmanship.

I was warming up for a mixed sectional match and the roving official told me, as we were going out for the first game, that he saw me FF from 2 courts over. I'm not usually an offender but anything's possible. He stayed and watched a bit but never issued a call or warning to anyone that I heard.
 
esgee48 said:
If you play him, just tell the guy he foot faults badly. Tell his captain and your own captain that you want an official because you believe that the guy foot faults. They won't go on prior viewing of his foot faults; only his opponent can request an official. If they say No..., then start foot faulting like he does. Aside from this, there is nothing you should do since you are not playing him.
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It was a tournament so no captains involved.

Cindysphinx said:
A spectator is not supposed to point out rules violations to officials. They are supposed to call footfaults if they are at their position at the net post, and if they do, they are supposed to stick around to watch the other player serve so as to be even-handed.

Can you imagine what a roving official's day would be like if they had to respond to every complaint of a spectator?

The official was right not to intervene.

When you play that person, you have a decision to make: Either you watch for footfaults and then call a roving official, or you suck it up and deal. After all, if it is truly a "flagrant" footfault, it shouldn't be at all difficult for you to see the footfault and also be ready to return serve.
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It wasn't like I was a random spectator. I was a competitor in the same draw as them. At the time this happened there were only 3 matches going on and they were all right next to each other (very early morning and the public still had most of the courts). So it wasn't like I was keeping him from roaming around. After I pointed it out to him and he explained that he doesn't bother because then he would have to sit there for 3 games, he sat there and watched the entire first set with me, so not like he was busy with something else. He sat there and watched 8 games :)

In my opinion the official is doing the player a disservice by not atleast warning them. One day that player is going to enter a match where the official sits there and calls it over and over on him. I honestly don't think he could have served without FFing, it seemed pretty ingrained in his service motion.

Sure I could have simply watched for FF's instead of playing the serve. Since he did it every time I wouldn't have even had to worry about returning the serve. Just didn't know what the consensus was on something like this. I figured that when I pointed it out to the official he would do something, but nope.

eelhc said:
I would say a shocking amount of people foot fault. In my experience, ~25% or more in some matches/tournaments. That said, only a fraction of the people among those who foot fault regularly actually gin any advantage from it. Etiquette wise it's a difficult subject... I would only say something (nicely) if someone was gaining an advantage from it. If they're jerks about it, just start serving from inside the court right on top of the net and say you both agree not to call foot faults.
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25% might even be on the low end, but as I explained I usually don't worry about it as it is usually involves them shuffling their feet around and ending up on the line instead of behind it. In this case, the guy was basically serving from a foot inside the line.

You're right, I should have just told him that he was faulting and we wouldn't worry about it, but I was going to start serving from a foot inside the baseline as well. If he protested, get an official and then he would probably just retire after getting called 3 or 4 times in a row or he would have to start his serve from a foot behind the line to compensate.
 
not worth calling imo unless they are gaining a significant advantage (ie stepping in 3ft before making contact with the intent to rush the net)

i guess technically it improves their serve %.... but just not worth complaining about it in the grand scheme.

when i was younger i used to be douchey about calling that kind of stuff,... half to just get them thinking about ff rather than getting their serve in (and had it done to me).

these days i want my opponents to play their best, as it gives me a better match. not to mention that once i start thinking about things i can't control, it distracts me from focusing on the things i can control.

obviously if i was getting paid to play, it'd be different,... but i think only one person on her plays pro, and he hasn't posted in a while :p
 
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The official is supposed to field complaints and make judgments by the parties at play and not some guy in the stand no matter what bearing that would have on you playing them in the future. As far as how you handled it personally I sometimes watch the feet early in a match to get a feel for their rhythm or cadence in their motion and I try to do that so I can see all their serves than from there I can be more aggressive ... that said unless the foot fault in giving them a definite advantage there is no point in stressing it. I have seen the returning team tell the server in a tight spot to watch the foot fault and often the server had a melt down after.

Side note the foot fault is not nearly as much of an issue as hitting a volley before it come across the net completely especially in doubles.....
 
Is it me or do TALL guys seem to foot fault more? just a question...

I am 5'9" and wish I was 6'1" so I could swing more freely, and it just seems more offensive when someone is 6'2"+ and is foot faulting on every serve...

For me, in USTA match without an official, I don't say anything while we are playing. But after the match, I tell them they are foot faulting (badly if I am seeing it). It is clear then that I am not telling them for gamesmanship- but trying to help them. If they get offended, so be it.

if it is particularly flagrant I may mention it at the end of a set or change-over. I don't start calling it, just let them know it is happening.

My 2cents, which is worth what you paid for it.
 
mikefl said:
25% might even be on the low end, but as I explained I usually don't worry about it as it is usually involves them shuffling their feet around and ending up on the line instead of behind it.
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I bet it's more like 50% from what I see. Yeah I'm sure half the people are foot faulting in a match. Not every single serve but some during a match.

I can't recall ever calling someone in a league match- I just think there are more important things to worry about.

Funny side story. We used to practice doubles with this guy years ago. He was kind of annoying in many ways. He knew he foot faulted and this day he told me to call it if he was foot faulting. First serve during a practice match I called a foot fault on him. 2nd serve he did the same thing and I called another foot fault. I started walking towards the net to let my partner take the next serve on add court. He asked what I was doing. I said if you want me to call foot faults I'm going to take a point if you do it twice in a row, why else call them. He was so pissed he started to leave until the other guys convinced him to stay. We didn't call foot faults after that. lol
 
In the situation in the OP, the official should have been calling footfaults already... that's what the official is there for... if he noticed that a player was footfaulting, he should get into position to call footfaults and do that for both players...

On the other hand, the official was right to to ignore the OP's *request* to start calling them. The OP was, as far as that match is concerned, just a spectator, and thus should have no input as to the behavior of the official. The only players with the right to request the official to come over to their court are the two people on it.
 
In my area officials get on foot faults pronto.
Even if a spectator says something and the player say nothing a official will come watch and call a warning and point penalty.

I say next time you tell that NTRP official "Do your GD job MF'er!!!!"
 
Max G. said:
In the situation in the OP, the official should have been calling footfaults already... that's what the official is there for... if he noticed that a player was footfaulting, he should get into position to call footfaults and do that for both players...

On the other hand, the official was right to to ignore the OP's *request* to start calling them. The OP was, as far as that match is concerned, just a spectator, and thus should have no input as to the behavior of the official. The only players with the right to request the official to come over to their court are the two people on it.
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To be clear, I didn't request he call them. I simply pointed out to him that the player was foot faulting while we were watching the match together, fully expecting him to start calling them on his own.
 
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tournament official is suppose to call foot faults. They will call as they see it roaming the courts. They may not call it every time.

Furthermore, if you call a line judge, you have the option to either 1) have the line judge call everything, or 2) line judge will only verify your calls.

You as a player cannot call foot fault whether you have a view or not. The way it was explained to me....what exactly will you call? foot fault or line from a serve? Can't watch both.

learn to accept it; just like learn to accept that there are sandbaggers.
 
mikefl said:
When I played him, I let it go and didn't complain
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I'm assuming you must have won. Comfortably. Otherwise, you not only would have called the official over for the foot fault, but probably had a stop watch timing him on changeovers, etc.
 
Nostradamus said:
Agree, if the official is present, he is supposed to Warn first then if repeated then call foot fault. That is the what they are there for. if they didn't do that immediate firing of that official is in order and you must protest the match and call the tournament refreee and organizer.
Click to expand...
Yep. I've had officials warn me in tournaments several times, and they all said that if they saw it again, they would have to call it.
 
mikefl said:
Today I played in an NTRP tournament. I watched my next opponent play someone else before our match and noticed that he was foot faulting on every single server. Like one of those foot faults where the right handed player brings that right foot around to about a foot inside the baseline to launch into the serve.

When an official walked by I pointed this out to him and he basically told me they don't worry about it for NTRP matches unless the opponent complains. I don't know about you guys, but when I am returning serve it is impossible for me to detect a foot fault as I am watching their upper body and the ball.

In my opinion the official should have atleast informed the player that he was foot faulting and to be more careful. When I played him, I let it go and didn't complain to the official but am wondering if I should have. Would it have been in bad taste to complain? I'm sure I will face this opponent again in the next few weeks.

If it is just a little shuffle that brings them a few inches fine, but if they are actually stepping in and launching a foot in front of the baseline, that is pretty egregious and they are using it to get an advantage.

I couldn't believe the official just ignored it when I pointed it out to him. Isn't that their purpose there?

I mean sure, it is an ntrp match and not an ATP match, but the rules are pretty clear. you have to serve from behind the baseline. In a sanctioned tournament like this, where I am paying for the officials with my entry fee, shouldn't they be officiating when a participant points out that a rule is being broken?
Click to expand...
I have a solution for that. Ask if footfaults are being called. If you get a no answer. Hit your first serve from your service line instead of the baseline. That should solve the problem
 
A person I regularly play with has always foot faulted since I've known him. He lines up against the service line and steps in about 2 feet into the court. He is short (around 5'6") and has a weak serve. I have never said anything as his serve still sucks so it doesn't offer him any advantage. I'll keep one in the holster with this one for myself.
 
Absolutely. The referee is supposed to at least issue a warning, he could've done it nicely before you started your match. The referees around here suck. Seems like their bored retirees roaming around to be social rather than doing any umpiring. Yes we're not pros, but these are sanctioned USTA events.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk
 
Per the Code, a player can call an flagrant footfault after they have warned their opponent that they are footfaulting and then tried (and failed) to bring on a line judge. I personally define flagrant as "so far over the line that I can clearly see it from the other end of the court and am willing to get into an argument over making the call".

Officials do not have to warn first, nor do they have to stick around and watch the other team serve (although both would be nice). I have observed this at multiple district and sectional events.
 
Called a foot fault on my doubles partner recently. Also not shy when at the net and the opposing server does it. At the baseline, I really cannot tell most of the time, but if I suspect it, I'll have my partner watch.
 
Nashvegas said:
Did your partner have an understanding beforehand that you might do this? Was this your significant other or another partner?
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My partners know I am very honest and try and be accurate. Not calling something I clearly observed would feel like cheating. "Thou shall not cheat." Probably the first time I've called a foot fault on a doubles partner, but I routinely correct errant line calls that I am sure about and have a better perspective on. (This doubles partner makes line calls through rose colored glasses some times.)

In this case it was not my wife I called the foot fault on. But I have spoken to her about it, and we agree that accuracy and good sportsmanship toward the other team are more important than any perceived insult in having a doubles partner make a call in the other team's favor.

Both my son and wife tried to "correct" my looking at my partner while they serve. I pointed out that I was doing it in this case, because my partner often serves before I am ready and often does unpredictable stuff back there. Yet his serves take so long to reach the net that I have plenty of time to turn around and prepare for the return. I often reposition after I see where his serve is going. The sooner I see where it is going, the sooner I can start moving. On the whole, I find the whole "team" thing easier to manage if I can see what my teammate is doing. Things do not move so fast at my level that looking at the baseline partner is a disadvantage. Correcting rookie mistakes requires spotting them first - stuff like staying in no man's land and volleying from the baseline are fairly common in some of the younger players I am trying out as doubles partners.
 
MathGeek said:
Both my son and wife tried to "correct" my looking at my partner while they serve.
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MathGeek said:
The sooner I see where it is going, the sooner I can start moving.
Click to expand...

Yes, Vic Sexias, who knows a thing or two about tennis, having won Wimby and just about everything else in his long illustrious tennis career, looked back at his serving partner in doubles. When asked if he wasn't worried about getting hit by the serve, he said, "If he knew where the ball was going, he could get out of the way better." Good doubles teams look back at their partner when they're returning the ball to have a better idea what's on the ball and to better stay in the point by following the ball--"Be the ball."
 
Last year a teammate was a habitual foot faulter, we had told him about it to make sure he minds his feet because it's very obvious but it wasn't easy for him to change and even through some practice he started having issues with his serve obviously it was on his mind.
We got into sectionals and it was a concern that even though he had worked on not doing it he could relapse into doing it and he could get called on in or he'd have a complex and struggle on serving (obviously cleaning that up is sort of important), it never did come up and wasn't an issue but this year (last week) I played a friendly with a group of 8 and my partner said 'have you seen xyz's serve? it's gotten pretty good but he foot faults everytime'.. of course it was him and he was a good shoe inside the baseline (headshake).:rolleyes:
 
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