Foot-faults: is it petty to call ?

[ChrisJR3264]

You would think playing in a league that’s ntrp 4.5 or higher - you’re opponent should know foot faults are illegal.

Any one else see this time to time? Not saying this happens often. But today a new guy I played constantly foot faulted the entire match. Worse was he was about 6”3-6”4 with a fantastic net game.

Ended up outplaying him in sets two and three.

 

[Cerdany]

Yes absolutely.

 

[Winners or Errors]

How big a foot fault? I mean, I've seen guys take an entire step into the court to hit their serves. I've also seen people slide a toe 1/2" across the line. The former bothers me. The latter doesn't.
Any way you slice it, though, unless you have a licensed official at your match, you can't legally call footfaults on your opponent. Ran into that exact problem playing 4.5 USTA. No solution was available at the time.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

How big a foot fault? I mean, I've seen guys take an entire step into the court to hit their serves. I've also seen people slide a toe 1/2" across the line. The former bothers me. The latter doesn't.
Any way you slice it, though, unless you have a licensed official at your match, you can't legally call footfaults on your opponent. Ran into that exact problem playing 4.5 USTA. No solution was available at the time.

I mean he was starting with his toe over the line. Some times he was crossing the center line he was up against it.

I tanked a game in the 2nd set just to focus on his footing and as he tossed he steps half a foot over the baseline every time

 

[ChrisJR3264]

It’s annoying how ppl don’t know the rules or abuse them.

 

[esgee48]

If a match, warn him the first time it is really apparent. Tell your captain and his captain to monitor and call FF if you can’t get an official. At 4.5 level, there are no reasons to allow it to continue. If doubles, have your partner call it. At 2.5 level, there may be some excuses such as no coordination. But 1st sanctioned match only, since even newbies should know better. What makes me wonder is how the he11 did he get to 4.5 without knowing he was FF.

Social matches don’t matter since you don’t have to play cheaters like this again.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

If a match, warn him the first time it is really apparent. Tell your captain and his captain to monitor and call FF if you can’t get an official. At 4.5 level, there are no reasons to allow it to continue. If doubles, have your partner call it. At 2.5 level, there may be some excuses such as no coordination. But 1st sanctioned match only, since even newbies should know better. What makes me wonder is how the he11 did he get to 4.5 without knowing he was FF.

Social matches don’t matter since you don’t have to play cheaters like this again.

It wasn’t usta. It was a recreational league - division 4.5 +.
The benefit is I won’t have to play him again. All he does is serve and volley. But it’s advantageous being 6’4 already with serving. Sucks when you’re foot faulting the entire time.

I let him know afterwards that he was foot faulting and that next time he may not get away with it.

 

[BallBag]

My go-to recommendation is to start your serve with your foot over the line and then continue creeping in as the match progresses. Eventually he will call you out on your foot fault so you can start calling him out on his foot fault. Please report back if you end up doing this.

 

[Alcawrath]

Unless they're taking a flying leap of a foot or more into the court before they hit the ball, their foot fault is not a significant factor in your match. Personally, idk how people even notice foot faults with certainty because you don't have a good angle to perfectly see the far baseline. Seems kinda petty to me

 

[tennis3]

1. Only call foot faults against good servers

2. Only call the foot fault toward the end of the set (even though he's been doing it on every serve)

3. Only call it on serves that are in (obviously it's not a foot fault if the serve was a fault, right)?

4. Basically, the more inconsistent you can be with this call, the better

5. Even if the guy backs off the line, continue to call him for foot faults (what's he going to do about it?).

 

[ChrisJR3264]

Unless they're taking a flying leap of a foot or more into the court before they hit the ball, their foot fault is not a significant factor in your match. Personally, idk how people even notice foot faults with certainty because you don't have a good angle to perfectly see the far baseline. Seems kinda petty to me

I’m anal and can see it easily. But I first noticed it when his foot started over the line and he would get into his pin point stance at toss almost a full foot over the baseline.

And he was starting toe over the center line. Quite easy for me to tell.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

Unless they're taking a flying leap of a foot or more into the court before they hit the ball, their foot fault is not a significant factor in your match. Personally, idk how people even notice foot faults with certainty because you don't have a good angle to perfectly see the far baseline. Seems kinda petty to me

Seems kinda petty that at this level they need to cheat on something that they can say is “petty to call”. Guess if ya ain’t cheating you ain’t winning. Although in this case sets 2/3 were a blow out so

 

[NothingButNet]

It's super super petty...so I help out by pointing it out in other people's matches, never my own

 

[jimmy8]

I watched my USTA team play in my off week and the opponents were all foot faulting every serve, feet were 6-8 inches over.

 

[Fintft]

Call them out, as they cheat.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

Call them out, as they cheat.

Not a bad idea.

 

[nyta2]

My go-to recommendation is to start your serve with your foot over the line and then continue creeping in as the match progresses. Eventually he will call you out on your foot fault so you can start calling him out on his foot fault. Please report back if you end up doing this.

hmm... i'm gonna have to steal that...

 

[mauricem]

I let him know afterwards that he was foot faulting and that next time he may not get away with it.

What was his response?
If it was that egregious and advantageous I'd probably call it too. You gotta consider its a game where calls are made and games won and lost over fractions of an inch all the time. Why should the service be exempt from similar scrutiny?

 

[ChrisJR3264]

What was his response?
If it was that egregious and advantageous I'd probably call it too. You gotta consider its a game where calls are made and games won and lost over fractions of an inch all the time. Why should the service be exempt from similar scrutiny?

I mean I won in 3 sets. 6-7 6-2 6-3. It didn’t impact the outcome but some of his service games went to 5-6 deuces so third set was grind.

He gave me a dirty look bc there was more controversy in the match over poor line calls including match point so ehh. Cheap player.

 

[Alcawrath]

That's the other side of this. You can't actually call a foot fault because it's not your side of the court so you're raising the risk that your opponent will start calling questionable line calls and actually cost you points if you make someone angry with you. You gotta be smart and pick your battles....

 

[ChrisJR3264]

That's the other side of this. You can't actually call a foot fault because it's not your side of the court so you're raising the risk that your opponent will start calling questionable line calls and actually cost you points if you make someone angry with you. You gotta be smart and pick your battles....

Yep. Like I said. I told him after the match.
He was already making questionable calls.

 

[Alcawrath]

Yeah, sorry I'm not saying anything critically about you. I'm just commenting in general about the idea of calling foot faults per the thread title

 

[ChrisJR3264]

Yeah, sorry I'm not saying anything critically about you. I'm just commenting in general about the idea of calling foot faults per the thread title

Not gonna lie. Up 5-3 15-40 on match point # 1 I was tempted to call it then lol

 

[Alcawrath]

Not gonna lie. Up 5-3 15-40 on match point # 1 I was tempted to call it then lol

 

[StoicBoxer]

it sounds like the guy didn’t even realize he was doing it. I don’t blame you for being irked by it though. If you taped the match, it would be best to probably just show him the video.

Obviously, a foot fault just the same.

I always look at these calls by asking myself does the opponent gain a distinct advantage by doing this? If not, I don’t worry about it. Usually a foot fault does not get you a distinct advantage aside from the fact that it can be annoying.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

it sounds like the guy didn’t even realize he was doing it. I don’t blame you for being irked by it though. If you taped the match, it would be best to probably just show him the video.

Obviously, a foot fault just the same.

I always look at these calls by asking myself does the opponent gain a distinct advantage by doing this? If not, I don’t worry about it. Usually a foot fault does not get you a distinct advantage aside from the fact that it can be annoying.

To be honest I wouldn’t have noticed it til he was catching his toss 1-2x each and every serve. Then it just started to become blatantly bad to the point he was starting over the line.

He was 6’4. He’s already got an advantage on serve lol

 

[tennis3]

Foot-faults: is it petty to call ?​

1. If your opponent is playing "in good faith" and not trying to footfault to gain an advantage, then I'd say it's petty. Meaning, if he's just a "normal rec player" whose serve form isn't perfect, but wants to try to hit a "big serve" anyway, then for me, it's OK. Because if your technique isn't "really good" and you try to go big, the forces involved will often cause you to take a small step. And if you line up close to the line, you will footfault.

2. If you're going to call it, do what an umpire did in a tournament I played in. Call everyone together before the matches start and let everyone know that you will be calling footfaults. Because the "normal expectation" in rec tennis is that no one calls footfaults. So if you're going to call them, you're going against the norm (even though it is the rule) and to me, it's only right to warn everyone what is going to happen before you start doing it.

3. If you call them, call them all. Be consistent. Don't just call them on important points. Or on big servers. Call all footfaults on everyone. Inconsistent / selective rule enforcement seems like gamesmanship to me.

4. No lectures. Just make the call just like you call a fault on a serve that goes long and get on with play. Lectures and posturing seem like gamesmanship to me (like you're making the call mainly to break the rhythm of the server)


And since no one makes footfault calls in the way I'm asking, I'm VERY suspicious of a person's motives that makes (what appear to be) "strategic" footfault calls.

That said, I let very few things bother me in a tennis match. If someone wants to start calling them on me (suspiciously on my aces) and lecture me about it for 30 seconds before getting into position to receive the next serve, there really isn't much I can do about it. All I can do is let them do it. I never retaliate on this type of thing (it just escalates the situation). I just act as if nothing out of the ordinary happened and continue to play as normal. Trying not to footfault (backing off the line more), but knowing it might happen (because my technique is far from perfect.

 

[bobbybob14]

I guess I don't understand why you just didn't mention it to him on a change over and see if it made a difference. A lot of players just legitimately don't know that they are doing it and would pay attention to it. Just seems a little odd that you waited until after the match to say something and then came on tt to complain about it.

 

[J_R_B]

2. If you're going to call it, do what an umpire did in a tournament I played in. Call everyone together before the matches start and let everyone know that you will be calling footfaults. Because the "normal expectation" in rec tennis is that no one calls footfaults. So if you're going to call them, you're going against the norm (even though it is the rule) and to me, it's only right to warn everyone what is going to happen before you start doing it.

I did this once. I was playing in a tournament and scouting our competition for the next match, and one of the guys was foot faulting pretty egregiously on every serve, so I mentioned it to him before the match and watched for it when he was serving to my partner. He didn't foot fault even once in all of the points I watched for it, so all it takes sometimes is a bit of preemptive action.

 

[travlerajm]

The only time I’ve said something in a usta match was in 4.5 men’s doubles league. Guy was a hard-charging serve and volleyer with excellent net game, and he was leaping 3 feet into the court and landing before contact so that he could get in closer to the net behind his flat dink serve.

He kept doing it after I called him out on it.

 

[nyta2]

I did this once. I was playing in a tournament and scouting our competition for the next match, and one of the guys was foot faulting pretty egregiously on every serve, so I mentioned it to him before the match and watched for it when he was serving to my partner. He didn't foot fault even once in all of the points I watched for it, so all it takes sometimes is a bit of preemptive action.

The only time I’ve said something in a usta match was in 4.5 men’s doubles league. Guy was a hard-charging serve and volleyer with excellent net game, and he was leaping 3 feet into the court and landing before contact so that he could get in closer to the net behind his flat dink serve.

He kept doing it after I called him out on it.

but are you even allowed to call it? if i were a serial footfaulter... i'd just ignore your call, and say your wrong... then becomes a he said, she said argument. i might even do it more to get under your skin, if i were that type of player...

even if i weren't being malicious about it... i've probably practiced that serve (stepping 6-12" into the court) so many times, that it would be a hard/impossible habit to break, unless i'm being penalized (by a ref) every time.

so to me, beyond getting a ref, calling footfaults does nothing.

 

[bobbybob14]

I wondered this as well. I was under the impression that officially you were not allowed to call a foot fault on an opponent. You can tell your opponent they are doing it but it isn't like calling the ball out where it is official/changes the score when you make the call. I believe in an official USTA match you would have to request an official to make the call.

 

[nyta2]

I wondered this as well. I was under the impression that officially you were not allowed to call a foot fault on an opponent. You can tell your opponent they are doing it but it isn't like calling the ball out where it is official/changes the score when you make the call. I believe in an official USTA match you would have to request an official to make the call.

yea, this is why i like @BallBag solution of just footfaulting myself... start 12" inside the baseline...
else i'll get mad about them cheating, which affects my game/focus/concentration/etc...
but if i footfault myself (starting 12" inside the baseline), then it's "fair"

 

[schmke]

I wondered this as well. I was under the impression that officially you were not allowed to call a foot fault on an opponent. You can tell your opponent they are doing it but it isn't like calling the ball out where it is official/changes the score when you make the call. I believe in an official USTA match you would have to request an official to make the call.

This comes up every time there is a new thread on the topic. Posting here again.

The USTA publishes a "Friend at Court" document (https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/2023-pdfs/2023 Friend-at-Court.pdf) and has this in it:

24. Calling foot faults. The receiver or the receiver’s partner may call foot faults only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court, have failed and the foot fault is so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the receiver’s side.

That seems to clearly provide an avenue for calling foot faults. Interpret "clearly perceptible from the receiver's side" as you will, and then decide if the ramifications of warning and calling are worth what you will gain by doing so.

 

[sureshs]

Nothing you can do in an unofficiated match.

 

[sureshs]

This comes up every time there is a new thread on the topic. Posting here again.

The USTA publishes a "Friend at Court" document (https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/2023-pdfs/2023 Friend-at-Court.pdf) and has this in it:

24. Calling foot faults. The receiver or the receiver’s partner may call foot faults only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court, have failed and the foot fault is so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the receiver’s side.

That seems to clearly provide an avenue for calling foot faults. Interpret "clearly perceptible from the receiver's side" as you will, and then decide if the ramifications of warning and calling are worth what you will gain by doing so.

That is not how I read it. See the and clause. You have to attempt to call an official first, which means that there is no recourse in an unofficiated match. It is not an or.

 

[BallBag]

yea, this is why i like @BallBag solution of just footfaulting myself... start 12" inside the baseline...
else i'll get mad about them cheating, which affects my game/focus/concentration/etc...
but if i footfault myself (starting 12" inside the baseline), then it's "fair"

I've been waiting for an opportunity to deploy this weapon but nothing came up yet. Calling out foot faults unprompted feeling like a dick move because honestly, nobody is getting a real advantage from a foot fault. When its a post season match that matters for something then there are officials that will call out foot faults for you. If its a regular season league match then I don't really care and the person foot faulting might be my partner next week. I would also have to double check that my own partner is not foot faulting behind me.

 

[nyta2]

This comes up every time there is a new thread on the topic. Posting here again.

The USTA publishes a "Friend at Court" document (https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/2023-pdfs/2023 Friend-at-Court.pdf) and has this in it:

24. Calling foot faults. The receiver or the receiver’s partner may call foot faults only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court, have failed and the foot fault is so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the receiver’s side.

That seems to clearly provide an avenue for calling foot faults. Interpret "clearly perceptible from the receiver's side" as you will, and then decide if the ramifications of warning and calling are worth what you will gain by doing so.

true... but you're also supposed to call all close line calls, FOR your opponent...

 

[nyta2]

I've been waiting for an opportunity to deploy this weapon but nothing came up yet. Calling out foot faults unprompted feeling like a dick move because honestly, nobody is getting a real advantage from a foot fault. When its a post season match that matters for something then there are officials that will call out foot faults for you. If its a regular season league match then I don't really care and the person foot faulting might be my partner next week. I would also have to double check that my own partner is not foot faulting behind me.

i disagree, s&v'ers do get a huge advantage being 1 full step closer when they make a first volley... often means the difference between a volley vs. half-volley, or a neutral below the net volley, vs above the net attacking volley...
but yeah, i'm not calling this most of the time... and most good players 4.5+ aren't footfaulting egregiously in my experience... it's only folks in the low4.0 (and below range) that are blatant footfaulters. (egregious/blatant = 1step inside the baseline or more). don't really care about 1-2" (eg. foot on the line)...

 

[BallBag]

i disagree, s&v'ers do get a huge advantage being 1 full step closer when they make a first volley... often means the difference between a volley vs. half-volley, or a neutral below the net volley, vs above the net attacking volley...
but yeah, i'm not calling this most of the time... and most good players 4.5+ aren't footfaulting egregiously in my experience... it's only folks in the low4.0 (and below range) that are blatant footfaulters. (egregious/blatant = 1step inside the baseline or more). don't really care about 1-2" (eg. foot on the line)...

It's an advantage but I wouldn't consider it enough to bother with. Not eating a chipotle burrito right before a match would be a greater advantage for me and don't bother with that either. I think the biggest impact is you thinking about your opponent foot faulting instead of concentrating on the match.

 

[nyta2]

It's an advantage but I wouldn't consider it enough to bother with. Not eating a chipotle burrito right before a match would be a greater advantage for me and don't bother with that either. I think the biggest impact is you thinking about your opponent foot faulting instead of concentrating on the match.

agreed... and again, another reason i like your idea of just ff'ing and taking the same "advantage" vs. getting mad over my opponent doing it

 

[princemidplus]

When I have played someone who foot faults noticeably from the other side of the court (mostly in doubles when my partner is receiving) then i only may ask them to be careful as it is obvious from our side of the court. I also only mention it at a change of ends and not during a service game. If it is a big advantage to them and they don't stop then i would ask for a team captain to officiate if necessary and persistent.

Most of the time even just mentioning it to the opponent has one of two outcomes.......they correct their foot faults immediately and everyone is happy OR they take great offense, deny they ever foot fault, tell me it is impossible for them to foot fault and they start calling bogus foot faults on my partner and I during the service game.

 

[Chalkdust]

The problem I have with the whole topic of calling foot faults, especially in singles, is that I don't believe that the returner can actually see accurately enough to make the call in most cases.

The returner is focusing on the ball, not the server's feet. So, watching the toss, trying to get a read on where the serve might be heading, getting balanced, etc. Very hard to do that while also keeping track of the opponent's feet leading up to and at the moment of contact.

Here's an example of Serena's feet at moment of contact: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/h5q7ME5MGAg/maxresdefault.jpg

She is over the line but in the air. Clear to see from the side view, and also in this case there is sun and a shadow.
Now imagine being the returner. Could you tell that she was still in the air at contact, vs a fraction of a second later she is on the ground but already after contact?
And then imagine it's not Serena getting several inches of air, but a rec hack getting an inch. And no sun or shadow to help. Makes it almost impossible to tell, unless you are looking from along the baseline as a line judge would.

Anyway, I am very skeptical of anyone who claims they can consistently make accurate FF calls like this from across the court.

 

[nyta2]

,,,they take great offense, deny they ever foot fault, tell me it is impossible for them to foot fault and they start calling bogus foot faults on my partner and I during the service game.

this is mostly my experience... but i haven't called a ff in 20y

 

[nyta2]

The problem I have with the whole topic of calling foot faults, especially in singles, is that I don't believe that the returner can actually see accurately enough to make the call in most cases.

The returner is focusing on the ball, not the server's feet. So, watching the toss, trying to get a read on where the serve might be heading, getting balanced, etc. Very hard to do that while also keeping track of the opponent's feet leading up to and at the moment of contact.

Here's an example of Serena's feet at moment of contact: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/h5q7ME5MGAg/maxresdefault.jpg

She is over the line but in the air. Clear to see from the side view, and also in this case there is sun and a shadow.
Now imagine being the returner. Could you tell that she was still in the air at contact, vs a fraction of a second later she is on the ground but already after contact?
And then imagine it's not Serena getting several inches of air, but a rec hack getting an inch. And no sun or shadow to help. Makes it almost impossible to tell, unless you are looking from along the baseline as a line judge would.

Anyway, I am very skeptical of anyone who claims they can consistently make accurate FF calls like this from across the court.

we're talking about he egregious ones... ie. crappy technicque... that resembles federer when he's warming up his serve, but with an entire step into the court that is obvious.
but you're right, a footfault where the foot is on the line, or even a tiny bit over... impossible to call with certainty from the opposite baseline.

 

[cks]

You have to attempt to call an official first

In this case, I would apply rule 6 from The Code, that players are responsible for making decisions. As others have pointed out, claiming points on foot fault doesn't seem worth it. If it was flagrant and it bothered me, I would just stop playing and forfeit the match.

6. Opponent gets benefit of doubt. A player should always give the opponent the
benefit of any doubt. When a match is played without officials, the players are
responsible for making decisions, particularly for line calls. There is a subtle
difference between player decisions and those of an on-court official. An official
impartially resolves a problem involving a call, whereas a player is guided by the
principle that any doubt must be resolved in favor of an opponent. A player in
attempting to be scrupulously honest on line calls frequently will keep a ball in play
that might have been out or that the player discovers too late was out. Even so, the
game is much better played this way.

 

[Chalkdust]

we're talking about he egregious ones... ie. crappy technicque... that resembles federer when he's warming up his serve, but with an entire step into the court that is obvious.
but you're right, a footfault where the foot is on the line, or even a tiny bit over... impossible to call with certainty from the opposite baseline.

Yeah, but I think the OP mentioned this was a 4.5+ singles match. So I'm assuming it wasn't like a beginner's FF where the server takes a big step with the front foot into the court way before making contact.

 

[nyta2]

Yeah, but I think the OP mentioned this was a 4.5+ singles match. So I'm assuming it wasn't like a beginner's FF where the server takes a big step with the front foot into the court way before making contact.

ah, i haven't seen a "beginner ff" at the 4.5+ level...
yeah, toe on the line, or even over the line, i won't bother calling...

 

[Chalkdust]

ah, i haven't seen a "beginner ff" at the 4.5+ level...
yeah, toe on the line, or even over the line, i won't bother calling...

Right, and the other common one that people complain about at 4.5+ level is where the server makes contact over the line but in the air when fresh, but when legs get tired, the airtime gets less, and then sometimes contact happens only after landing in the court. But those are the ones I think are really impossible to judge from across the court.

 

[TennisOTM]

That is not how I read it. See the and clause. You have to attempt to call an official first, which means that there is no recourse in an unofficiated match. It is not an or.

I don't understand your logic - are you saying that you cannot "attempt to get an official on the court" in an unofficiated match? I'd say that just the process of asking "is there an official working this match?" qualifies as an attempt even if the answer is no.

It seems to me this would be the process if you really want to enforce the rule (whether actually doing this is "petty" is separate question):

When you see the opponent foot-faulting: give them a warning. Say that I see you are foot faulting, by rule I have to give you a warning so I am not calling a fault.

If they keep doing it, say: you are still foot faulting. If there was an official working this match I would be calling them over now. Because there is no official, the rules say I can call a fault if your foot is clearly perceptibly over the line. If it is close I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if I clearly see your foot over the line when you strike a serve, I'm going to call it.

Would you not be covered under the rules if you went this route and starting calling clear foot faults?