Foot-faults: is it petty to call ?

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
We’ve created a world where no one can handle criticism anymore. Trying to correct someone will never go well.

I’m never going to call foot faults on anyone or even pay attention to their feet. The drama that it causes is not even worth the potential benefit.
 

bobbybob14

Rookie
Not sure why this is such a divisive topic. At least people aren't arguing about whether they could take a game off a pro anymore though.
 

ChrisJR3264

Hall of Fame
I guess I don't understand why you just didn't mention it to him on a change over and see if it made a difference. A lot of players just legitimately don't know that they are doing it and would pay attention to it. Just seems a little odd that you waited until after the match to say something and then came on tt to complain about it.
Well I thought about it. Then the other issue was he already was making suspect line calls that extended games longer than usually. I could’ve made things worse.
 

RyanRF

Professional
For me it's hard to notice foot faults for the opposing server while I'm returning. I only notice when I'm spectating.

It's pretty common at the ~4.0 level. I'd estimate maybe 20% have minor foot fault (toes on top of the baseline) and ~5% have bad foot fault (full step into the court).

Almost no one ever says anything.


If someone was foot faulting and it really bothers you, I imagine simply mentioning it on a change over would get in their head and distract them for the rest of the match. :happydevil:
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I don't understand your logic - are you saying that you cannot "attempt to get an official on the court" in an unofficiated match?
How can you?

I think I understand the confusion. You are talking about when there are referees around but not on your court.

I was not clear. I should have said unofficiated play, like league matches, where there is no referee at all.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
How can you?

I think I understand the confusion. You are talking about when there are referees around but not on your court.

I was not clear. I should have said unofficiated play, like league matches, where there is no referee at all.
I'm saying that you can always *attempt* to find an official or a referee, even if your attempt has a 100% chance of failing. Like me attempting to successfully hit a tweener.
 
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ChrisJR3264

Hall of Fame
For me it's hard to notice foot faults for the opposing server while I'm returning. I only notice when I'm spectating.

It's pretty common at the ~4.0 level. I'd estimate maybe 20% have minor foot fault (toes on top of the baseline) and ~5% have bad foot fault (full step into the court).

Almost no one ever says anything.


If someone was foot faulting and it really bothers you, I imagine simply mentioning it on a change over would get in their head and distract them for the rest of the match. :happydevil:
I know before I serve I always check my foot position in platform Stance.

The real reason I noticed it was bc my opponent kept catching his darn toss on almost every serve. At that point I started to notice his footing and where his feet were when getting into pinpoint position. So yeah
 

illzoni

Semi-Pro
That is not how I read it. See the and clause. You have to attempt to call an official first, which means that there is no recourse in an unofficiated match. It is not an or.
Your analysis of the sentence structure and meaning is flawed.

"...only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court,"

This phrase provides examples of reasonable efforts, "warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court," it does not provide a list of mandatory efforts. If the case of an un-officiated match, warning the server and/or their partner (repeatedly) would surely qualify as "reasonable efforts".
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
Your analysis of the sentence structure and meaning is flawed.

"...only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court,"

This phrase provides examples of reasonable efforts, "warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court," it does not provide a list of mandatory efforts. If the case of an un-officiated match, warning the server and/or their partner (repeatedly) would surely qualify as "reasonable efforts".
@sureshs is just giving you an example of what you'll have to go through if you ever attempt to call a foot fault on him

 

Court-craft

New User
So I’ve never done it, but a player in my club has. But given that I play mostly doubles and the net player often sees this with a degree of certainty. The best approach could be to mention it at changeover, and ask them to be aware and careful. That you will begin to call it if you see it again. Then be very careful about your own toes and the baseline when serving.
 

ChrisJR3264

Hall of Fame
So I’ve never done it, but a player in my club has. But given that I play mostly doubles and the net player often sees this with a degree of certainty. The best approach could be to mention it at changeover, and ask them to be aware and careful. That you will begin to call it if you see it again. Then be very careful about your own toes and the baseline when serving.
Yeah I mean this match was completely pitiful. The guy prolonged it with long breaks to a point of annoyance. Catching his toss on almost every serve - which is where I caught his foot faulting.

I asked the question if it’s petty to call foot faults. I get the feeling players like the one I encountered the other day played quite petty as well.
 

PRS

Professional
Interpret "clearly perceptible from the receiver's side" as you wil
I would say at a minimum they have to touch part of the court past the line. Anything less is going to have such a minor benefit anyway it's not worth it. I probably wouldn't say anything unless there was at least half of their foot past the line.
That is not how I read it. See the and clause. You have to attempt to call an official first, which means that there is no recourse in an unofficiated match. It is not an or.
I think, after a warning, mentioning that it's still happening and either asking for an official (even if you know there's not one around) or just saying something like "there's no official around. I'm going to begin calling foot faults if you continue to go past the baseline on your serve" would suffice.

Foot faulting is the easiest rule in the world to follow. Those who say it's always petty to call just want to keep foot faulting themselves. That being said, just be reasonable; never call foot faults if the server doesn't go past the baseline or if it doesn't seem like it'll affect the match. Sounds like in this instance the OP would be right to start calling foot faults.

If they argue, keep in mind the rule from friend at court; you are allowed to call foot faults on your opponent (once reasonable attempts have been made to stop it). If they still refuse to accept the call, step close to the service line and crush an ace. When they protest, say "I thought we weren't calling foot faults?" They should back off then. If not, I wouldn't play with them anymore.
 

tennytive

Hall of Fame
The level doesn't always make a difference. When I was a roving umpire during challenger level tournaments, foot faulting was rampid since there were no officials present at each court.
I was called to more than one court because receivers were complaining about foot faults. None of these players thought it was petty (except the servers of course). From a couple courts away I could see foot faulting going on with some players, but was not allowed to call or even warn anyone unless I was at their specific court. By the time I arrived at a court in question the foot faulting magically stopped.

I don't know why tennis gets a pass. In basketball for example, if you have the ball and step on the line, it's a turnover.
If you're serving in tennis and you step on the line it's a fault, just like if you hit your serve into the net or long.
Not complicated. Not petty.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I would say at a minimum they have to touch part of the court past the line. Anything less is going to have such a minor benefit anyway it's not worth it. I probably wouldn't say anything unless there was at least half of their foot past the line.

I think, after a warning, mentioning that it's still happening and either asking for an official (even if you know there's not one around) or just saying something like "there's no official around. I'm going to begin calling foot faults if you continue to go past the baseline on your serve" would suffice.

Foot faulting is the easiest rule in the world to follow. Those who say it's always petty to call just want to keep foot faulting themselves. That being said, just be reasonable; never call foot faults if the server doesn't go past the baseline or if it doesn't seem like it'll affect the match. Sounds like in this instance the OP would be right to start calling foot faults.

If they argue, keep in mind the rule from friend at court; you are allowed to call foot faults on your opponent (once reasonable attempts have been made to stop it). If they still refuse to accept the call, step close to the service line and crush an ace. When they protest, say "I thought we weren't calling foot faults?" They should back off then. If not, I wouldn't play with them anymore.
If you say there is no official around when there really are no officials around, I don't think that it is in the spirit of the Code.
 

PRS

Professional
If you say there is no official around when there really are no officials around, I don't think that it is in the spirit of the Code.
True, not abiding by one of the basic, easiest-to-follow rules of tennis is much more in the spirit of the game and code.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Your analysis of the sentence structure and meaning is flawed.

"...only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court,"

This phrase provides examples of reasonable efforts, "warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court," it does not provide a list of mandatory efforts. If the case of an un-officiated match, warning the server and/or their partner (repeatedly) would surely qualify as "reasonable efforts".
"only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court"

It provides only 2 examples, one being the attempt to get an official. To go to the plural word examples, at least 2 cases were needed, and they were provided.

If they had even provided 3, you could say they intended two of them to be sufficient. But when they provide only 2, there seems no way out, especially with the and clause.
 

PRS

Professional
"only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court"

It provides only 2 examples, one being the attempt to get an official. To go to the plural word examples, at least 2 cases were needed, and they were provided.

If they had even provided 3, you could say they intended two of them to be sufficient. But when they provide only 2, there seems no way out, especially with the and clause.
"Such as..." implies these are examples, not exact steps.

1) warn the server of foot faults
2) warn server that things haven't changed and there's no official present so you will begin calling foot faults

That would qualify as efforts (plural).

I get you're probably just trolling, but I sometimes enjoy attempting to continue anyway.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
The level doesn't always make a difference. When I was a roving umpire during challenger level tournaments, foot faulting was rampid since there were no officials present at each court.
Challenger level? As in Professional Tennis?

Don't Challenger level tournaments have Chair Umpires (in addition to line judges)?
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Guy steps on the line or completely in the court to hit the ball and start a point, it's somehow offensive to call.

Guys calling balls out by unseen millimeters, fully expected.
Guys calling a let on the smallest tick of the net, fully expected.

FFS.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
"Such as..." implies these are examples, not exact steps.

1) warn the server of foot faults
2) warn server that things haven't changed and there's no official present so you will begin calling foot faults

That would qualify as efforts (plural).

I get you're probably just trolling, but I sometimes enjoy attempting to continue anyway.
Problem is "there's no official present" is not NEW information you are providing if there are no officials. The only NEW information you have provided is that you suspect foot faulting. That does not satisfy the plural usage.

When you apply for a Real ID, you need to produce 2 documents from 2 categories. If you produce only one and keep saying that the other is at home and so you don't have it with you, it does not cut it.
 

PRS

Professional
Problem is "there's no official present" is not NEW information you are providing if there are no officials. The only NEW information you have provided is that you suspect foot faulting. That does not satisfy the plural usage.

When you apply for a Real ID, you need to produce 2 documents from 2 categories. If you produce only one and keep saying that the other is at home and so you don't have it with you, it does not cut it.
And where does the tennis rule say it needs to be from 2 different categories of reasonable efforts? Nowhere. If I warn you at 3-3 in the first set, then I warn you again at 5-5 in the first set, that is two separate instances, therefore it satisfies the rule. Nowhere in the rule does it state that the efforts must be different types of efforts, just that there must be more than one effort made.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
And where does the tennis rule say it needs to be from 2 different categories of reasonable efforts? Nowhere. If I warn you at 3-3 in the first set, then I warn you again at 5-5 in the first set, that is two separate instances, therefore it satisfies the rule. Nowhere in the rule does it state that the efforts must be different types of efforts, just that there must be more than one effort made.
I don't think multiple instances of the same act count as more than one, given that a) they provided a second example and b) they could have easily mentioned 2 instances of warning and eliminated the second example altogether.
 

PRS

Professional
a) they provided a second example
That doesn't always apply, therefore being completely useless in this discussion and can be ignored
b) they could have easily mentioned 2 instances of warning and eliminated the second example altogether
They could have done a lot of things. But the example about requesting an official is an important part of "reasonable effort" if one is present, so it makes sense to mention it, even though they didn't have to.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
That doesn't always apply, therefore being completely useless in this discussion and can be ignored

They could have done a lot of things. But the example about requesting an official is an important part of "reasonable effort" if one is present, so it makes sense to mention it, even though they didn't have to.
Then in an unofficiated setting, the Code could be read as requiring only one warning before claiming the point. That does not sound right.
 

PRS

Professional
Then in an unofficiated setting, the Code could be read as requiring only one warning before claiming the point. That does not sound right.
Just because something doesn't sound right doesn't mean it isn't right. Like with tiebreaks; a tiebreak is considered one game. You alternate the player/team who serves after each game. You also switch sides after every odd game. But within a tiebreaker, you also alternate servers and sides. But who serves first AFTER a tiebreak? You switch based on who STARTED serving the turns. However, what side do you start on AFTER a tiebreak? You switch sides based on where the tiebreak ENDED. Doesn't sound right, doesn't make sense, but that's how it goes.

Although you could argue that it still requires at least 2 efforts since it does say "efforts" and not "effort(s)".
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
Guy steps on the line or completely in the court to hit the ball and start a point, it's somehow offensive to call.

Guys calling balls out by unseen millimeters, fully expected.
Guys calling a let on the smallest tick of the net, fully expected.

FFS.
It's one of those things where most people just let common sense prevail. And unfortunately, common sense can't be defined. In other words, how big of a foot fault is too big? Most of us just have a "feel" for it, but we wouldn't be prepared to define it with hard and fast rules. And 99.9% of people you play will have the same basic common sense you have. Generally, if you have a bad serve, people will let any amount of foot faulting slide. But if you have a good serve, people get hyper sensitive about even a millimeter foot fault (because they're looking for anything to mess up your serve rhythm).

Most people don't care about foot faults (in rec tennis) unless there is something else bothering them (they're losing, they don't like their opponent, their opponent made a "bad" line call, whatever). And that's the reality of most things people fight about in rec tennis. You only care about all these little things because you need something "tangible" and "measurable" to complain about when you decide you don't like your opponent (for whatever reason). Then, the fact that he's blinking too loud will annoy you just as much as his foot fault.

Now, all of these can easily be denied and everyone knows the drill. "I'm just following the rules". Of course, we don't "just follow the rules" all the time. But that's what makes all these "rec tennis mind games" fun. And everyone is just as clever as everyone else at playing these games.
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
Just because something doesn't sound right doesn't mean it isn't right. Like with tiebreaks; a tiebreak is considered one game. You alternate the player/team who serves after each game. You also switch sides after every odd game. But within a tiebreaker, you also alternate servers and sides. But who serves first AFTER a tiebreak? You switch based on who STARTED serving the turns. However, what side do you start on AFTER a tiebreak? You switch sides based on where the tiebreak ENDED. Doesn't sound right, doesn't make sense, but that's how it goes.

Although you could argue that it still requires at least 2 efforts since it does say "efforts" and not "effort(s)".
They could have easily then said "After 2 warnings, receiver claims the point" since the Code is usually used by rec players who do not usually play officiated matches. The Code is not meant for college or professional players.
 

PRS

Professional
They could have easily then said "After 2 warnings, receiver claims the point" since the Code is usually used by rec players who do not usually play officiated matches. The Code is not meant for college or professional players.
You're right. They could have. But they chose not to.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
You're right. They could have. But they chose not to.
Can you confirm this. It seems to say that one warning is enough if no official is available.


Code p. 54/55​

Footfaults: A player may warn an opponent that the opponent has committed a flagrant foot fault. If the foot faulting continues, the player may attempt to locate an official. If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults. Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of a player’s personal honor system. The plea that a Server should not be penalized because the server only just touched the line and did not rush the net is not acceptable. Habitual foot faulting, whether intentional or careless, is just as surely cheating as is making a deliberate bad call.
 

PRS

Professional
Can you confirm this. It seems to say that one warning is enough if no official is available.


Code p. 54/55​

Footfaults: A player may warn an opponent that the opponent has committed a flagrant foot fault. If the foot faulting continues, the player may attempt to locate an official. If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults. Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of a player’s personal honor system. The plea that a Server should not be penalized because the server only just touched the line and did not rush the net is not acceptable. Habitual foot faulting, whether intentional or careless, is just as surely cheating as is making a deliberate bad call.
Lol, looks like according to that sites paraphrasing/interpretation that you are correct, one warning does suffice if there's no official present.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Lol, looks like according to that sites paraphrasing/interpretation that you are correct, one warning does suffice if there's no official present.
I hate being always right. It does not endear me to others.

The warnings can be on the first serve and second serve. So the receiver could claim that point itself.
 

PRS

Professional
I hate being always right. It does not endear me to others.

The warnings can be on the first serve and second serve. So the receiver could claim that point itself.
You weren't right, this whole fake argument was because you said you couldn't call foot faults if an official wasn't present, hahaha
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Whenever I watch rec matches from the sideline, I notice that more than 75% of players footfault by the letter of the law (foot touches the line) on a majority of serves. I am commenting about self-taught players below the 4.5 level mostly because their front foot doesn’t stay stationary and moves forward during the serving motion to touch the baseline. Only higher level players who have been coached a lot on the serve as juniors do the proper weight transfer and keep their front foot immobile.

So, if you call an opponent for egregious footfaulting, just make sure that both you and your partner don’t footfault even slightly according to the rule. Otherwise the opponents will start calling your more minor foot faults as is their right and the match will reduce into a farce if both teams are calling foot faults on many points. This is why players who insist on all other rules being followed don’t call footfaults - they likely know that they footfault also.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Whenever I watch rec matches from the sideline, I notice that more than 75% of players footfault by the letter of the law (foot touches the line) on a majority of serves. I am commenting about self-taught players below the 4.5 level mostly because their front foot doesn’t stay stationary and moves forward during the serving motion to touch the baseline. Only higher level players who have been coached a lot on the serve as juniors do the proper weight transfer and keep their front foot immobile.

So, if you call an opponent for egregious footfaulting, just make sure that both you and your partner don’t footfault even slightly according to the rule. Otherwise the opponents will start calling your more minor foot faults as is their right and the match will reduce into a farce if both teams are calling foot faults on many points. This is why players who insist on all other rules being followed don’t call footfaults - they likely know that they footfault also.
At 4.5 level, it is 50%.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Most people don't care about foot faults.

I do.

Then again, they really only matter to people when they are losing. No one I have seen calls foot faults when they are up.

And then, then again...I was surprised how many I saw called at Nationals, and they used to be called a lot at tourneys. Not sure when that particular rule became a gentleman's game discussion outside of social matches.

But, then, then, then and then again...here we are.
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
.I was surprised how many I saw called at Nationals, and they used to be called a lot at tourneys. Not sure when that particular rule became a gentleman's game discussion outside of social matches.
They're called at any tourney I play. And I'd be surprised if they weren't called during playoff season of league. But these are called by officials (or calling officials to the court if necessary).

They're pretty tough to call on your opponent though in an non-officiated match. I guess if I were playing a league match against the "big rival" to determine who will be first in the league, I might see if everyone wanted to pay for officials. But most league matches are meaningless (you pretty much know which team is better and is going to win).
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
It's one of those things where most people just let common sense prevail. And unfortunately, common sense can't be defined. In other words, how big of a foot fault is too big? Most of us just have a "feel" for it, but we wouldn't be prepared to define it with hard and fast rules. And 99.9% of people you play will have the same basic common sense you have. Generally, if you have a bad serve, people will let any amount of foot faulting slide. But if you have a good serve, people get hyper sensitive about even a millimeter foot fault (because they're looking for anything to mess up your serve rhythm).

Most people don't care about foot faults (in rec tennis) unless there is something else bothering them (they're losing, they don't like their opponent, their opponent made a "bad" line call, whatever). And that's the reality of most things people fight about in rec tennis. You only care about all these little things because you need something "tangible" and "measurable" to complain about when you decide you don't like your opponent (for whatever reason). Then, the fact that he's blinking too loud will annoy you just as much as his foot fault.

Now, all of these can easily be denied and everyone knows the drill. "I'm just following the rules". Of course, we don't "just follow the rules" all the time. But that's what makes all these "rec tennis mind games" fun. And everyone is just as clever as everyone else at playing these games.
The rules are very clearly defined. If you are stepping over the line at all, it's a foot fault
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
The level doesn't always make a difference. When I was a roving umpire during challenger level tournaments, foot faulting was rampid since there were no officials present at each court.
I was called to more than one court because receivers were complaining about foot faults. None of these players thought it was petty (except the servers of course). From a couple courts away I could see foot faulting going on with some players, but was not allowed to call or even warn anyone unless I was at their specific court. By the time I arrived at a court in question the foot faulting magically stopped.
This is not dissimilar to bad line callers who magically stop when there is a roving official present

At higher levels, chronic foot faulting is not an ability issue but deliberate cheating
 

tennytive

Hall of Fame
Challenger level? As in Professional Tennis?

Don't Challenger level tournaments have Chair Umpires (in addition to line judges)?
Yes, when they get to the later rounds, but the first couple matches there were too many courts and not enough umpires or money to pay everyone needed. I want to say these were the lowest ranked players trying to make it into the main draw. This was in the early nineties and players voted how much to spend on umpires. Needless to say they thought the glamour of being on court with them was payment enough. We typically worked for $20 as linesmen. Chairs got more, but I never chaired so I don't know how much that might have been. This particular tournament was in Northbrook IL if I remember right and had Patrick McEnroe making his way through the draw and winning so that gives you an idea of how long ago that was. BTW he never foot faulted either.
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
You would think playing in a league that’s ntrp 4.5 or higher - you’re opponent should know foot faults are illegal.

Any one else see this time to time? Not saying this happens often. But today a new guy I played constantly foot faulted the entire match. Worse was he was about 6”3-6”4 with a fantastic net game.

Ended up outplaying him in sets two and three.
I mean you can call it but I've never seen many in 20 years get far with it unless of course you are playing say USTA. I am guilty of it from time to time but the one time I had it called on me was at 4.0 state tourney. I was okay with it because serving is the worst part of my game by far. It ended up working against the guy though. His teammates went up and got the ref and she came down and within 30 seconds called a foot fault...that was fine...so on the next cross over...it was about 97 degrees...ole porky wanted to sit for 3 to 5 minutes...I was like nope...you're going to have to get him up at the time. So it ended up costing him dearly by having the ref called on someone serving top speeds of 27 mph. :) He forgot he was lugging around an extra 50 to 75 pounds and wanted to rest which I was allowing because I was resting to but he needed it a lot more than I did. So just know that when you decide to call it and have a ref come down, make sure the serve is an actual weapon or it could work against you. :)
 

Pass750

Professional
Guy steps on the line or completely in the court to hit the ball and start a point, it's somehow offensive to call.

Guys calling balls out by unseen millimeters, fully expected.
Guys calling a let on the smallest tick of the net, fully expected.

FFS.
Bingo, we have a winner! Well said.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The rules are very clearly defined. If you are stepping over the line at all, it's a foot fault
No. It has to be flagrant - visible from the other side. It doesn't depend on what I think - it is not like a double bounce or a line call on my side which I call. It is for my opponent to call. Makes sense because it is difficult for me to stare at my feet while serving.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
This is not dissimilar to bad line callers who magically stop when there is a roving official present

At higher levels, chronic foot faulting is not an ability issue but deliberate cheating
Nah, till 5.0 no one has the ability to do it on demand.
 

JW10S

Hall of Fame
As stated, in a non-officiated match it is often pointless. But I will definitely shame the person mercilessly, and I mean mercilessly. I would make mention every time they did it because it is cheating, and I won't let them forget that. It reminds me of a college match I played many years ago, before on court refs were the norm in college matches. I was playing doubles at a big tournament at a large facility and our match was sent to the farthest court from the tournament desk. One of our opponents blatantly foot-faulted. My partner mentioned it right away saying we don't want to disrupt the match by having to walk back to the TD to get a ref and could the guy just back up a step. The guy continued to foot-fault the rest of the game. So, on the next game when it was my partner's turn to serve, he started walking to net before his first serve. I thought he was going to tell me something but instead he walked up to the net and slammed an overhead shot into the service court that then hit the fence and said loudly '15-love!' The opponents said, 'What was that?' My partner said, 'If you're going to foot-fault so am I'. On the next point my partner again started walking toward the net. The opponents then said, 'OK, OK, we get it'. There were no more foot-faults and we went on to have a good match. Foot-faulting is cheating, plain and simple. It doesn't matter 'if it's just a little' just like a ball 'just a little bit out' is still out. Foot-faulting a little is like being a little bit dead, it is what it is, cheating.
 
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