Foot faults

[schmke]

Damn, now I'm gonna have to try this (step 1ft+) inside the court to see if it really does increase my serving % and effectiveness... if it does, and i run into someone that does it, I'll change my tactics

It can make a difference and those that say it doesn't are ignoring the math and science of it.

Lets take the case of serving down the T. If you contact the ball at 9 feet off the ground at the baseline, a straight line that just clears the net will be in the service box 19.5 feet past the net, or 1.5 feet inside the service box. If you contact the ball at the same height but a foot inside the baseline, the straight line will be in the service box 19 feet past the net, or 2 feet inside the service box.

Six inches isn't a big deal right? Well, if you could increase the window you have to serve into from 1.5 feet to 2 feet, a 33% increase, I think you'll see your serve improve in one or both of first serve percentage and/or your ability to go after more on the first serve and still keep the same percentage.

Yes, I know no one hits serves that are perfectly straight, we do live in a world where gravity rules, but the 33% increase is illustrative of how much easier being a foot closer to the net makes serving. And this example ignores serving out wide and how being a foot closer increases the angle at which you can still serve at a high percentage.

 

[Govnor]

Imagine playing a pusher that foot faulted like that too? **** me.

 

[volusiano]

I get it if people foot fault and don't know about it. What I don't get is people who foot fault, were told about it, and totally ignore it and goes on foot faulting instead of trying to fix it.

I know a guy who's a decent player and I've mentioned it to him in a very friendly way off court that he foot faults every single time. His reaction was "Oh really?" like he was surprised and that it was the first he heard of it. Then he just went on doing it and didn't do a thing to try to fix it.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

It can make a difference and those that say it doesn't are ignoring the math and science of it.

Lets take the case of serving down the T. If you contact the ball at 9 feet off the ground at the baseline, a straight line that just clears the net will be in the service box 19.5 feet past the net, or 1.5 feet inside the service box. If you contact the ball at the same height but a foot inside the baseline, the straight line will be in the service box 19 feet past the net, or 2 feet inside the service box.

Six inches isn't a big deal right? Well, if you could increase the window you have to serve into from 1.5 feet to 2 feet, a 33% increase, I think you'll see your serve improve in one or both of first serve percentage and/or your ability to go after more on the first serve and still keep the same percentage.

Yes, I know no one hits serves that are perfectly straight, we do live in a world where gravity rules, but the 33% increase is illustrative of how much easier being a foot closer to the net makes serving. And this example ignores serving out wide and how being a foot closer increases the angle at which you can still serve at a high percentage.

Oh, man, throwing out stats and science is always the way to change my mind
Definitely have to try this in practice.

So for these blatant FF, who are clearly taking advantage of no one calling them out, if it does make a big difference, and I come across someone take a 1ft+ step inside the baseline, i'm going to similarly start my service motion 1ft inside the baseline. Probably still won't make a big deal out of it, but instead passive-aggressively take the same advantage/liberties they are taking.

But for most folks I come across that do FF, it's usually unintentional, and only by an inch or 2, i will let it go. I find that folks that are FF-whistle-blowers, they do it not because the FF is gaining a huge advantage, but as a gamesmanship ploy to get into the server's head.

 

[dman72]

Damn, now I'm gonna have to try this (step 1ft+) inside the court to see if it really does increase my serving % and effectiveness... if it does, and i run into someone that does it, I'll change my tactics

It makes a big difference. There are many foot faulters in my league, including players who have come and gone. Dozens of them I've played. There were only 3 I recall who did it significantly enough and had good enough serves to make it a real issue to me. Most of their serves are so slow that it doesn't matter.

One guy has a huge serve and has both feet at least a foot inside the court when he slides into his pinpoint stance. To try to make a point in our last match I took 4 serves from basically his ending position...2 did not come back and 2 were barely put in play. The problem is, you start screwing up your own serve when you start thinking about this garbage and how he is cheating. It's a no win situation. This guy plays USTA so I can't believe it's never been pointed out. When we watch him from the gallery it's like the running joke..someone should put a note on his car or something.

Bringing it up to him seems like sour grapes or gamesmanship. It's just part of rec tennis, the not fun part, just like shady line calls.

 

[tennis4me]

Imagine playing a pusher that foot faulted like that too? **** me.

Yeah - I have played with one a few times. That didn't bother me much, but I did find it distracting as my eye involuntarily focus on that glaring foot fault.

The one that does bother me are the flagrant offenders who foot faulted a lot into the court (more than 6 inches) AND is a serve-and-volley player. This could make a difference between the person hitting a low volley vs hitting a half-volley of his feet (which is harder). It looks like as if the player is already running a step into the court before he hits his serve.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

It makes a big difference. There are many foot faulters in my league, including players who have come and gone. Dozens of them I've played. There were only 3 I recall who did it significantly enough and had good enough serves to make it a real issue to me. Most of their serves are so slow that it doesn't matter.

One guy has a huge serve and has both feet at least a foot inside the court when he slides into his pinpoint stance. To try to make a point in our last match I took 4 serves from basically his ending position...2 did not come back and 2 were barely put in play. The problem is, you start screwing up your own serve when you start thinking about this garbage and how he is cheating. It's a no win situation. This guy plays USTA so I can't believe it's never been pointed out. When we watch him from the gallery it's like the running joke..someone should put a note on his car or something.

Bringing it up to him seems like sour grapes or gamesmanship. It's just part of rec tennis, the not fun part, just like shady line calls.

Not sure how it would screw with my own serve? I'd just line up like normal, only 1ft closer. if it gives me that much more of a margin, it's all positive! I can see it being an issue if I kept switching back and forth to the "real" baseline. I'll try tonight, and report tomorrow what i think of this new 'weapon-against-chronic-foot-faulters'

 

[dman72]

Not sure how it would screw with my own serve? I'd just line up like normal, only 1ft closer. if it gives me that much more of a margin, it's all positive! I can see it being an issue if I kept switching back and forth to the "real" baseline. I'll try tonight, and report tomorrow what i think of this new 'weapon-against-chronic-foot-faulters'

Play a whole match against foot faulter and serve standing inside the baseline.

Play next match against non-foot faulter, move back, now you struggle to get your serve in. It's a distinct possibility.

 

[tennis_ocd]

A *full foot* inside the baseline and a *solid serve* can be an issue. The chance of this happening without a guy purposefully doing so is virtually nil -- at least I've never seen it.

 

[dman72]

A *full foot* inside the baseline and a *solid serve* can be an issue. The chance of this happening without a guy purposefully doing so is virtually nil -- at least I've never seen it.

IF the guy starts his serve behind the baseline, but slides into a position well in front of it...it's at least a possibility that they don't realize it. I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. The problem is that the end result doesn't matter..it's an advantage, but it's one of the tougher things to call out.

If you say something before the match, it's gamey.
If you say something after a match that you lose, it's sour grapes.

The only time you can really get away with it is after a solid win against said player...and then you're beating him so it's not a big deal. The guy in my league I hadn't lost to in previous seasons so it wasn't a big deal to me. That's when I should have said something, after wins.

The last 2 matches I lost in tiebreakers because his game has improved.

 

[SoCalJay]

But for most folks I come across that do FF, it's usually unintentional, and only by an inch or 2, i will let it go. I find that folks that are FF-whistle-blowers, they do it not because the FF is gaining a huge advantage, but as a gamesmanship ploy to get into the server's head.

Let me ask you a question. Let's say your opponent goes to put a ball away at the net and clips (or kicks) the net while following through. Would you let that go?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Let me ask you a question. Let's say your opponent goes to put a ball away at the net and clips (or kicks) the net while following through. Would you let that go?

It's a different question.

Yes, they are both breaking a rule... but I doubt my ability to unquestionably determine if a serve has gone 2-4in over the line at contact... and if I am certain (and he doesn't FF, and the serve goes in), then I'm in trouble because I was watching the wrong thing.

Touching the net, is more obvious, it's half the distance to me, and I can call it immediately and with certainty.

If there was a camera on both ends that watched our FF's, then yes, I would call it every time if the camera captured it, and could alert immediately.

Ideally we'd all have line callers for every line, for every match... but too much TTw is getting in the way of my first Billion

 

[volusiano]

It's a different question.

Yes, they are both breaking a rule... but I doubt my ability to unquestionably determine if a serve has gone 2-4in over the line at contact... and if I am certain (and he doesn't FF, and the serve goes in), then I'm in trouble because I was watching the wrong thing.

Touching the net, is more obvious, it's half the distance to me, and I can call it immediately and with certainty.

If there was a camera on both ends that watched our FF's, then yes, I would call it every time if the camera captured it, and could alert immediately.

Ideally we'd all have line callers for every line, for every match... but too much TTw is getting in the way of my first Billion

I'm with this opinion.

I would call FF if I can see it clearly but I can't, and I need to focus on the ball and not the foot.

Having said that, though, if we're playing double and I'm on the return team and I'm at the net, I can but I don't call FF unless it's blatant and the server has a killer serve.

 

[schmke]

I'm with this opinion.

I would call FF if I can see it clearly but I can't, and I need to focus on the ball and not the foot.

Having said that, though, if we're playing double and I'm on the return team and I'm at the net, I can but I don't call FF unless it's blatant and the server has a killer serve.

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating calling every foot fault. I previously stated that I have never called someone for it during a match and only once even mentioned it to a player that was stepping over the line with both feet on every serve.

That said, you seem to be advocating two sets of rules. One set for good players that have a killer serve and another set for those that have weak serves. Is that accurate? And if only a players first serve is killer but his second serve is weak, you'd only call a foot fault on his first serve but not his second?

Do you similarly have two sets of rules for players that have killer forehands? For those that hit hard, you call the lines correctly, but those that hit weak forehands that you can easily get to their shots, you go ahead and play the ball anyway when it is a couple inches out since you can get to the ball and return it, so hitting the ball out didn't really give them an advantage?

 

[volusiano]

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating calling every foot fault. I previously stated that I have never called someone for it during a match and only once even mentioned it to a player that was stepping over the line with both feet on every serve.

That said, you seem to be advocating two sets of rules. One set for good players that have a killer serve and another set for those that have weak serves. Is that accurate? And if only a players first serve is killer but his second serve is weak, you'd only call a foot fault on his first serve but not his second?

Do you similarly have two sets of rules for players that have killer forehands? For those that hit hard, you call the lines correctly, but those that hit weak forehands that you can easily get to their shots, you go ahead and play the ball anyway when it is a couple inches out since you can get to the ball and return it, so hitting the ball out didn't really give them an advantage?

I know what you're getting at but to me line calls are different than foot fault calls. Line call is a result of where the ball lands so if you choose to make you line call in an obviously incorrect way then it makes it confusing to everyone, your opponent included. We're not talking about close calls here, but obvious cases.

There is more discretion at the rec level for foot fault call by the returning team/player, however. Obviously the rule is clear, but choice for rule enforcement is up to the returning player/team.

That is why we have this long thread to discuss this controversy, isn't it? I'm not talking about wrong or right or double standard or not here. I'm just voicing my opinion about how I would choose to call foot fault on someone. And yes, if the guy has a killer serve (even if just on first serve only), I would be more inclined to call FF on him somebody with a weaker serve that would not matter to the outcome of the match if he FFs. That's just the discretion I would choose to make for myself personally since I have that discretion when it comes to FF.

 

[unforced error]

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating calling every foot fault. I previously stated that I have never called someone for it during a match and only once even mentioned it to a player that was stepping over the line with both feet on every serve.

That said, you seem to be advocating two sets of rules. One set for good players that have a killer serve and another set for those that have weak serves. Is that accurate? And if only a players first serve is killer but his second serve is weak, you'd only call a foot fault on his first serve but not his second?

Do you similarly have two sets of rules for players that have killer forehands? For those that hit hard, you call the lines correctly, but those that hit weak forehands that you can easily get to their shots, you go ahead and play the ball anyway when it is a couple inches out since you can get to the ball and return it, so hitting the ball out didn't really give them an advantage?

You are correct, but playing at a recreational level, or really any level where the money (none) is less important than actually playing, the reasoning from Volusiano is sensible.

It is good for the ball to actually be in play.

A big serve aided by FF is no fun. A lame serve aided by FF is not a big deal and at least gets the point moving. While in both cases it is an advantage to FF, the advantage for the weaker player at least starts the point (fewer DFs), rather than ends or shortens it (as with a big server banging in aces from 12 inches too close).

FWIW, I played today with a person who FFs every serve, without exception, as he slides into his point serve position. For me, the issue is, do I want to keep playing with this guy? Since I do, more or less, then I let it go (and if I ever lose to him I can always blame it on the FFs).

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Whether the person foot faulting knows they are doing it or not, it doesn't change the fact that it is a fault. Plain and simple. They should never win a service game, or they should fix it. Let's say you are 6 feet tall. Would your serve be better if you were 6-6? 6-8? That is the advantage some one gets from stepping 6-8 inches closer to the net.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Let me ask you a question. Let's say your opponent goes to put a ball away at the net and clips (or kicks) the net while following through. Would you let that go?

Not my call.

 

[beernutz]

Let me ask you a question. Let's say your opponent goes to put a ball away at the net and clips (or kicks) the net while following through. Would you let that go?

Apples and bananas. Foot faults are called on your opponent. Net touches are called on yourself. There is nothing to "let go" as it isn't your call if your opponent touches the net.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Whether the person foot faulting knows they are doing it or not, it doesn't change the fact that it is a fault. Plain and simple. They should never win a service game, or they should fix it. Let's say you are 6 feet tall. Would your serve be better if you were 6-6? 6-8? That is the advantage some one gets from stepping 6-8 inches closer to the net.

When money is on the line, 100% agree, and hopefully someone is there to call it for me.

In recreational matches (eg. no money/scholarships involved, including 1. with friends 2. usta/league matches 3. tournaments), if I had to choose between:
1. playing a competitive match where my opponent was cheating by coming 6in over the line on every serve,
2. winning a match by calling foot fault every chance I got (and not having to hit many balls due to double faults)
3. quitting the game of tennis (because "everyone cheats on their server") to play golf or endurance running

I'll take #1 every time.

Yeah it sucks that I'm playing at a disadvantage, but in the grand scheme of things (playing tennis as a fun way to get exercise, and an opportunity to get into "flow"), it's really just not a big enough deal to take on the challenge of making my opponent change his ways for the sake of fairness.

At the end of the day, even if my opp wins FF'ing, I'll thank him/her for helping me become a stronger player (showing me that I need to improve returning higher quality serves)... and if find out that (s)he is FF'ing intentionally with malicious intent for the sake of winning,... I'll just make sure to never do business with them.

I did serve some practice serves from 1ft inside the baseline, and I have to admit, it did feel like it was easier to get the ball in. Couldn't quantify how much easier (someone else mentioned I have a 33% larger window to hit into) to clear the net,... and obviously if I'm playing dubs, I get that 1 step closer to coming to net (which could mean the difference between a low volley vs. a half volley (harder)).

Only so many challenges I'm capable of taking on (family, work, life,...) no room for this one

 

[spot]

My biggest issue with people calling footfaults is that I haven't ever seen someone do it when they are winning. It is only a desperation move when someone is losing a match and will do anything at all to try and win at all costs. Selective enforcement of the rules is a pretty lousy thing so if you want to be "that guy" who calls them then call them every time. EVERY time. Regular season. When you are up 5-2. Call them in practice against your teammates or in a pickup match with friends. If you think that it is such a problem then call them every time.

If you want to just be known as the footfault guy then by all means do so. I'll prefer to watch the ball when my opponent serves while you watch their feet hoping they touch the line so you don't have to return the serve.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Apples and bananas. Foot faults are called on your opponent. Net touches are called on yourself.

Are we sure they are? I mean can you really call ffs on another player and take the point? Seems to me the last time this was discussed some put up valid positions that you couldn't do it....

 

[tennis tom]

dont pay any attention to tennistom. he's always grumpy and angry. nothing to bother wasting energy to play his negative macho game.

stay positive and let the trolls be negative

Mark Twain - “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

 

[spot]

I mean can you really call ffs on another player and take the point?

In the US you absolutely can. There was some ambiguity about other countries but no definitive answer. THough I can't imagine a situation where it wouldn't be possible otherwise there is nothing in the rules stopping someone from serving from the service line.

 

[Ihatetennis]

Foot faulting is really only an advantage when serving and volleying, so unless my opponent is using it as a direct strategy, it doesn't bother me. Most people that foot fault every serve don't even know they are doing it. I doubt either of these guys are 5.0s anyways, as both would struggle in the 4.5 division here in Texas.

Also, I would just tell my opponent they are foot faulting and be done with it. If they ace you by crossing the center line and hitting a serve down the T, just call a foot fault and tell them they are serving from the other side of the court. I do not understand your ideology of countering a rule infraction with legitimate cheating.

they would struggle in 4.0 to be honest

i saw this as a 5.0 video and i thought to myself... this must be the worst 5.0 match played, far too many errors

 

[unforced error]

they would struggle in 4.0 to be honest

i saw this as a 5.0 video and i thought to myself... this must be the worst 5.0 match played, far too many errors

It would be interesting to hear from the lefty in white about this discussion.

He obviously FFs on every serve, but none of the serves are near the net or near any lines. I'm sort of curious about his frame of mind, as the person on the film here.

 

[beernutz]

Are we sure they are? I mean can you really call ffs on another player and take the point? Seems to me the last time this was discussed some put up valid positions that you couldn't do it....

From The Code:
24. Calling foot faults. The receiver or the receiver’s partner may call foot faults only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court, have failed and the foot fault is so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the receiver’s side.

So a warning has to first be given to your opponent and you also have to try to get an official but after that you are good to go in calling flagrant clearly perceptible foot faults.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

From The Code:
24. Calling foot faults. The receiver or the receiver’s partner may call foot faults only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court, have failed and the foot fault is so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the receiver’s side.

So a warning has to first be given to your opponent and you also have to try to get an official but after that you are good to go in calling flagrant clearly perceptible foot faults.

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Rules/Rules-and-Line-Calls/Foot_Faulting/

Basically says it's based on the honor code... along with touching the net... you have to call it on yourself.

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Rules/Rules-and-Line-Calls/Misc_Rules/

So basically, when playing with a blatant foot faulter, the question boils down to, do you want to play with someone honorable or not?
You're not gonna change their behavior, regardless of whether you're right or wrong, you don't really have 100% proof that they did (your word vs. theirs). This seem analagous to, "do you continue play with someone that regularly calls balls that land on the line, out?" If you're like me, you look at the bigger picture, and probably:
a. if they are better than me, beat me regularly and/or help me improve my game, or me as a person, don't have someone of similar level to playwith,... despite the dishonorable behavior... you continue to play with them
b. they don't help me get better (in life or tennis), I am better than them, and ultimately it's not worth the aggravation (ie. i ignore it) of playing with this dishonorable person, because I have plenty of other folks to play with

I think most people choose (a).. with a caveat, after playing with them, complain on ttw about it

 

[beernutz]

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Rules/Rules-and-Line-Calls/Foot_Faulting/

Basically says it's based on the honor code... along with touching the net... you have to call it on yourself.

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Rules/Rules-and-Line-Calls/Misc_Rules/

So basically, when playing with a blatant foot faulter, the question boils down to, do you want to play with someone honorable or not?
You're not gonna change their behavior, regardless of whether you're right or wrong, you don't really have 100% proof that they did (your word vs. theirs). This seem analagous to, "do you continue play with someone that regularly calls balls that land on the line, out?" If you're like me, you look at the bigger picture, and probably:
a. if they are better than me, beat me regularly and/or help me improve my game, or me as a person, don't have someone of similar level to playwith,... despite the dishonorable behavior... you continue to play with them
b. they don't help me get better (in life or tennis), I am better than them, and ultimately it's not worth the aggravation (ie. i ignore it) of playing with this dishonorable person, because I have plenty of other folks to play with

I think most people choose (a).. with a caveat, after playing with them, complain on ttw about it

That first link to Improve Your Game is an old one and The Code has been revised since then as it no longer states that "compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player’s personal honor system." The text I quoted previously is what the USTA now says about calling foot faults in unofficiated matches.

The Code also contains this statement which perhaps replaced the one referring to a personal honor system:

23. Avoid foot faults. Players should not foot fault because it violates the ITF Rules of Tennis. It is a foot fault when a foot just touches the line, even when the player does not follow the serve to the net.

I like the Improve Your Game section but many times the answers become outdated when the rules of tennis and The Code change. When in doubt, refer to the source document, which in this case is The Code.

 

[Gut4Tennis]

Mark Twain - “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

I agree 100%

+

Mark Twain - “Never argue with angry people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

 

[dman72]

I'd choose not to play with cheaters in casual matches, but when you are in a league you sometimes have no choice. You then have to consider whether you enjoy playing in the league enough to put up with foot faulting, bad line calls, and stalling that you know are coming with some guys. It's a debate that many guys in my league deal with..now that the blatant foot faulter is probably going to win the league, it's come to a head.

 

[SoCalJay]

Apples and bananas. Foot faults are called on your opponent. Net touches are called on yourself. There is nothing to "let go" as it isn't your call if your opponent touches the net.

Right, I know that net touches are called on yourself but that's not the point. If someone very obviously touched the net and admitted it... Why not just let that go, too? That's how I see the logic that is being presented here from people who aren't really concerned with calling foot faults.

I'd never warn someone about foot faulting unless it's obvious so the whole "I'm too far away" thing is irrelevant.

 

[tennis tom]

I agree 100%

+

Mark Twain - “Never argue with angry people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

"Imitation is a kind of artless Flattery."
Eustace Budgell 1714

 

[tennis_ocd]

My biggest issue with people calling footfaults is that I haven't ever seen someone do it when they are winning. It is only a desperation move when someone is losing a match and will do anything at all to try and win at all costs. Selective enforcement of the rules is a pretty lousy thing so if you want to be "that guy" who calls them then call them every time. EVERY time. Regular season. When you are up 5-2. Call them in practice against your teammates or in a pickup match with friends. If you think that it is such a problem then call them every time.

If you want to just be known as the footfault guy then by all means do so. I'll prefer to watch the ball when my opponent serves while you watch their feet hoping they touch the line so you don't have to return the serve.

That about covers it. Wish there were more "that guys" and less whining gamers.

 

[dman72]

So the chronic foot faulter in my league had multiple foot faults called against him in his last USTA match...he's now corrected his stance and we have one less thing to complain about at my club, it seems. If he's truly a cheater he'll go back to it...if it was just an oversight, we're good. He always started behind the line and slid into the court so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[MisterP]

I'd like to know who here has been playing tennis for more than, let's say, two years and still gives a damm about someone putting a toe over the baseline on a serve.

Most of the people I know who point it out have either never played competitive tennis, or have only been playing a short period of time. I'm sure there are exceptions.

 

[dman72]

I'd like to know who here has been playing tennis for more than, let's say, two years and still gives a damm about someone putting a toe over the baseline on a serve.

Most of the people I know who point it out have either never played competitive tennis, or have only been playing a short period of time. I'm sure there are exceptions.

I've been playing in leagues for almost 7 years. There's a difference between a toe and having both feet fully inside the line...I've played 2 guys who do this who actually had good serves, and when they were corrected after USTA matches, their serves were not nearly as good. So, any matches I lost to them prior to that...especially that were close...I was at least partially cheated out of.

I've taken serves from the same position against the one guy, to try to prove a point, and I'd have to say my 1st serve percentage would go up by at least 10% if I did that regularly, since most of my misses are just long or clip the tape. However, I'd have to commit to cheating on a regular basis, and I'm not going to continue the cycle. My last match against the chronic foot faulter, I took 4 serves intentionally inside the line....all 4 were in, only 2 came back, and that was weakly over the net, and he said "oh ****" in response to how much faster they were.

It makes a difference, and if you do it knowingly, you're cheating. It's no different than hooking line calls. A toe vs both feet is only a question of degree.

 

[MisterP]

... having both feet fully inside the line....

That is an egregious violation of the rule. I'm not defending that. But I don't think allowing a toe over puts us on some dangerous slippery slope to everyone serving a foot inside the baseline.

 

[dman72]

That is an egregious violation of the rule. I'm not defending that. But I don't think allowing a toe over puts us on some dangerous slippery slope to everyone serving a foot inside the baseline.

Again, most guys at my level have serves that have no pace, so it really doesn't matter. The few who do, it does matter.

However, the highest level league at my club...tends to be younger guys who played college tennis..there are a lot of big serves, and there is constant chatter about how many of them foot fault. I start my serve outside the court and jump into the court, there's no sliding, so I know I'm good. If you slide your feet forward into your serve, you should videotape yourself and make the appropriate adjustment..unless you just want to cheat.

 

[tennis tom]

I'd like to know who here has been playing tennis for more than, let's say, two years and still gives a damm about someone putting a toe over the baseline on a serve.

Most of the people I know who point it out have either never played competitive tennis, or have only been playing a short period of time. I'm sure there are exceptions.

I CARE ABOUT ONE TOE OVER THE LINE! And I've been playing competitively all my life, and I'm older then two. You learn not to make an issue out of it at the club/rec level because it's so prevalent you'd be spending all your time fighting with the idiots--why wise them up--unless YOU feel like it to make the numb-nutz look bad in front of their gf or to embarrass them in front of the club.

One toe over the line at the baseline translates exponentially by many inches by the time the ball reaches the service box. I'm not a mathematician but I bet it will amount to six inches or more on the other side of the net. So if you hit a winner DTL that's in by six inches or a foot and your opponent calls it out, you don't care?--not a big deal he was only off by six inches, anyone can make a mistake, this isn't an exact science, who cares about who wins, we're just out to get some exercise?--well then just hit against a wall, it never cheats.

If the guy has been ff-ing for years and it's been pointed out to him and he doesn't care then he's still cheating whether he does it consciously or not. He's a jerk and should have been kicked off the team long ago and his teammates are cheaters as well and cowards for not doing something about it.

Good players just want the right call whether it's for or against them.

 

[schmke]

One toe over the line at the baseline translates exponentially by many inches by the time the ball reaches the service box. I'm not a mathematician but I bet it will amount to six inches or more on the other side of the net. So if you hit a winner DTL that's in by six inches or a foot and your opponent calls it out, you don't care?--not a big deal he was only off by six inches, anyone can make a mistake, this isn't an exact science, who cares about who wins, we're just out to get some exercise?--well then just hit against a wall, it never cheats.

See my earlier post with the math on the subject: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=9258248&postcount=101

Being 1 foot closer to the net creates a 33% greater area to hit a flat serve into. That makes a big difference.

 

[tennis tom]

It can make a difference and those that say it doesn't are ignoring the math and science of it.

Lets take the case of serving down the T. If you contact the ball at 9 feet off the ground at the baseline, a straight line that just clears the net will be in the service box 19.5 feet past the net, or 1.5 feet inside the service box. If you contact the ball at the same height but a foot inside the baseline, the straight line will be in the service box 19 feet past the net, or 2 feet inside the service box.

Six inches isn't a big deal right? Well, if you could increase the window you have to serve into from 1.5 feet to 2 feet, a 33% increase, I think you'll see your serve improve in one or both of first serve percentage and/or your ability to go after more on the first serve and still keep the same percentage.

Yes, I know no one hits serves that are perfectly straight, we do live in a world where gravity rules, but the 33% increase is illustrative of how much easier being a foot closer to the net makes serving. And this example ignores serving out wide and how being a foot closer increases the angle at which you can still serve at a high percentage.

Thanks for doing the math!

 

[MisterP]

See my earlier post with the math on the subject: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=9258248&postcount=101

Being 1 foot closer to the net creates a 33% greater area to hit a flat serve into. That makes a big difference.

That would be for a 12 inch foot fault, which is quite a lot. If we are talking about a toe over the line, maybe 2-3 inches at best, I'm guessing that you're talking about additional area to hit into of maybe an inch, probably less.

 

[dman72]

That would be for a 12 inch foot fault, which is quite a lot. If we are talking about a toe over the line, maybe 2-3 inches at best, I'm guessing that you're talking about additional area to hit into of maybe an inch, probably less.

At my club the baseline is at least 6 inches wide..maybe wider...so when a guys toe is 6 inches on the other side of that...he's cheating by a foot. This is not uncommon with the guys who slide into their serves.

 

[MisterP]

At my club the baseline is at least 6 inches wide..maybe wider...so when a guys toe is 6 inches on the other side of that...he's cheating by a foot. This is not uncommon with the guys who slide into their serves.

That is insane to have a baseline that wide.

"...the base lines may be up to 4 inches (10 cm) wide"

http://www.itftennis.com/technical/publications/rules/courts/overview.aspx
http://www.usta.com/rules_of_tennis/

 

[dman72]

That is insane to have a baseline that wide.

"...the base lines may be up to 4 inches (10 cm) wide"

http://www.itftennis.com/technical/publications/rules/courts/overview.aspx
http://www.usta.com/rules_of_tennis/

Maybe it is 4.....either way the line is there for a reason.

 

[schmke]

That would be for a 12 inch foot fault, which is quite a lot. If we are talking about a toe over the line, maybe 2-3 inches at best, I'm guessing that you're talking about additional area to hit into of maybe an inch, probably less.

A 3 inch difference would be 8.3% larger area, still significant. Would you have better results if you had more area to serve into and could increase your first serve percentage 10% or more without letting up at all?

And for more most people that move their feet during their serve, it isn't always the exact same amount. So to be safe, if they move their foot 3 inches on average, they really need to start 5-6 inches back to be safe and then then they are giving up about 17% of additional area.

 

[MisterP]

It does bring up an interesting point about getting a ball toss that goes into the court instead of directly over your head. Granted, the point of contact would probably be slightly lower the farther into the court it is, but if you get a good leg drive you could still hit the ball well inside the baseline near the same height without foot faulting, and thus increasing your angle of attack significantly.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Another way of looking at this is that if *one foot!* inside the BL you have a whole additional 5/8" of net clearance to play with.

For the ironic impaired, a 35 or 37" center net hgt would have close to 2x the impact of a full foot ff. imo, you guys are spending tremendous amounts of energy worrying about very, very little -- but I'm glad there are those that are that guy.

 

[tennis_ocd]

And to further blow the minds of those who's tennis and the impact on quality of life crumbles at the sight of a toe on line, I'll submit lack of single's sticks may more greatly impact court geometry than a full six inch ff. If I cared I'd do the math....