Foot faults

M

Martin Davey

New User
Hi I am interested in discussing foot faults. There seems to be an obsession out there about foot faults. From my point of view it should only be relevant in professional tournament tennis with an umpire. Outside of that it should just be forgotten. I play competitive tennis but it is amateur and for fun. I am flabbergasted by the number of players complaining that your foot goes over the line. In amateur tennis without an umpire this concern should be completely thrown out of the window. It is ridiculous and it used by some opponents to upset their opposition
 
I totally agree. Another issue is my first serve that just goes over the line. I don't like it when it constantly gets called out. I mean, come on, this isn't Wimbledon. That should only be called out in professional tournaments with a service line umpire, not rec tennis in the park. Same goes for floaters, lobs, and drop shots that land just over the line.

In fact, any rule you find objectionable should be changed for your convenience. You could even start your own tournament and call it the Davey Cup. :rolleyes:
 
a foot fault called on you from across the expanse of the tennis court would've to be pretty flagrant..and therefore should be. i doubt i would call it though..unless it was very obvious and the guy was killing me on his serve.. i play a guy who often starts his motion with toes over the lone.. i never say a word because his serve is not booming and i'd rather his go in as opposed to hitting softer or slowing things down further with more second serves..
 
I agree with the OP, and it's about time this ugly topic emerges from the shadows of this site. We need to have "the conversation", for the first time regarding it. I agree calling ff's is ridiculous, and only prevents the game from moving on. In about an hour I will be heading down to the courts, and will demonstrate my disgust with this archaic rule and serve from the net--I dare anyone to call me on it, I have my buddy who's a Hell's Angel to cover my back if I get any flack on this. When my appointment comes through as the DT at the White House, my first action will be to abolish the ff'ing rule. Tennis will never re-gain it's lost popularity, if it's stuck in the nineteenth century. My goal will be to bring back the skate boarding/herb crowd to tennis.
 
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I don't mind it being pointed out. I'm actually demonstrating an error in my serving motion when I do it, and I prefer to gain the advantage of fixing my service motion. Prolly only happened once or twice in 2016.
 
It's not whether foot faults should be called, but rather who should call them. If you are playing singles, you can't call it as the returner from the opposite side of the court. If you do that, that is just highly suspicious. If you are playing doubles, the returner's partner at the net would be the only player who can legitimately see well enough to make the call.
 
Foot faults are tough to call in singles. Though if it happens a lot the first order of business is to politely point it out to your opponent. But if it keeps happening and it's very obvious...call it. But you're gonna face a possible chew out from your opponent as it's really tough to make that call. My main thought though is it would have to be stepping way over the line to actually give an advantage to the server. If a millimeter of the two goes over....is that seriously gonna make any noticeable difference? And can anyone legitimately make that call receiving serve?
 
This comes up frequently here, and its actually addressed in 'The Code':
The Code said:
23. Avoid foot faults. Players should not foot fault because it violates the ITF Rules of Tennis. It is a foot fault when a foot just touches the line, even when the player does not follow the serve to the net.
24. Calling foot faults. The receiver or the receiver’s partner may call foot faults only after all reasonable efforts, such as warning the server and attempting to get an official to the court, have failed and the foot fault is so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the receiver’s side.
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In other words...in recreational tennis (e.g., USTA leagues, tournaments), players should not foot fault, but opponents shouldn't call them 'out of the blue'.

See http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/2. The Code.4.pdf for more info.
 
Well, I dont like "lets" when the ball barely clips the top of the net when i've bombed a serve they couldnt even touch. It's still enforceable even if it didnt effect play at all. These types of "phantom lets" happen way more often than a foot fault being called by an opponent.

Did you know that in volleyball, you're allowed to step on the center line with your foot? You're just not allowed to cross it with your entire foot.
However, any part of your foot that touches or crosses the 3 meter line, as a back row player, or, a server at the service line, is an infraction.

This essentially means there are two different conditions for foot faulting in volleyball. There are similar conditions for overreaching as well. You cannot reach over the net and stuff a setter, but you can reach over the net and stuff a spiker.

I would only call foot faults when the opponent clearly isnt trying to stay behind the line and is taking advantage of that fact. I know a lot of people who foot fault, and unless they're serving serves that you're having trouble handing, I wouldnt even make an issue of it.
 
ibjj said:
It does bother me when my opponent, serving from the ad side, steps over the center hash mark and then curves one down the tee
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That sounds like it creates more problems than advantages.

Most people double fault because of the turning of their body, starting with their feet. If a person is FF'ing on the center hash or doubles alley, they're probably chasing the toss. Chasing a toss is never a good thing. You should be able to see this as the returner and can start moving in. Serves that have to be chased down left/right almost never have power on them in rec tennis, and if they do, that ball is going like 10 ft. long or into the court before crossing the net. If someone was doing this in league (chasing the toss and crossing the hash) I wouldnt really say anything. What that tells me is I can have easy returns on serves with mostly slice on them and very little pace. Telling them to stop FF'ing might help them fix their toss/timing and im not about that life during a match.

I'd be more worried about people who are taller than 6' who love to crank wide serves when their foot is all the way inside the court.
 
One guy I played this year claimed it was a fault for my racquet to cross the line between the singles court and doubles alley when I set up way out to the right to serve. My feet were well inside the extension of the singles line, but invariably my racquet would break the plane of the extended singles line and encroach into the space above the extended doubles alley. I politely told him there was no such rule.
 
MathGeek said:
One guy I played this year claimed it was a fault for my racquet to cross the line between the singles court and doubles alley when I set up way out to the right to serve. My feet were well inside the extension of the singles line, but invariably my racquet would break the plane of the extended singles line and encroach into the space above the extended doubles alley. I politely told him there was no such rule.
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I have never heard of such a rule.
 
MathGeek said:
One guy I played this year claimed it was a fault for my racquet to cross the line between the singles court and doubles alley when I set up way out to the right to serve. My feet were well inside the extension of the singles line, but invariably my racquet would break the plane of the extended singles line and encroach into the space above the extended doubles alley. I politely told him there was no such rule.
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Did he also claim that your imaginary friend was talking too loudly?
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Did he also claim that your imaginary friend was talking too loudly?
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There was an incident once where a guy who was here for sectionals didnt have his meds... he was a schizo, and during the match when the pressure was high, he started yelling at some trees by the court. Pretty huge guy too. People thought he was having roid rage or something, but what ended up happening was his wife had to come from the stands to give him a hug and talk to him. Then he started crying and couldnt continue play.

I've never seen court monitors move so fast in my life, nor did I know there were even that many of them at any one time!
 
I don't think they should be forgotten. Yeah if your foot just touches the line in rec tennis who cares. But if it is giving the server an unfair edge, I think it shouldn't get ignored.

I've played some folks in rec tennis who are hitting the ball 3-4 feet inside the line. First it helps them get the serve in and gives a sense of more pace since it has less distance to travel. Second, it gives them an edge to coming to the net. I called guy and when he tried serving on the line out came a series of double faults.

Because it is rec tennis, I think it is respectable to give a warning. "No offense, but it looks like you are foot faulting. I'm giving you a warning on this one, before I call a fault."

Someone said you can't call a foot fault as the receiver. Yeah if it is one where your toe just touchs the line, I think it would be difficult to tell if contact with the ball occurred before or after the line touched the line. But with flagrant foot faults it is fairly clear. In addition, if a receiver chooses to focus on the feet of the serve, they will be at a disadvantage to returning. They won't be as focused on the ball and will probably be late returning balls that were not foot faults. So the receiver might have to decide to focus on hitting the ball or calling the fault. I know in doubles if I'm the receiver's partner if I focus on the feet, I have to be more generous with the in/out call because I'm late to following the ball.
 
tennytive said:
I totally agree. Another issue is my first serve that just goes over the line. I don't like it when it constantly gets called out. I mean, come on, this isn't Wimbledon. That should only be called out in professional tournaments with a service line umpire, not rec tennis in the park. Same goes for floaters, lobs, and drop shots that land just over the line.

In fact, any rule you find objectionable should be changed for your convenience. You could even start your own tournament and call it the Davey Cup. :rolleyes:
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In terms of calling balls out I think players need to realise that if the ball hits the line even if it only just tips the line it is in! To the naked eye it can look out and players call it out! The rule should be unless you can see a gap between the ball and the line it is not actually out!
 
Martin Davey said:
Hi I am interested in discussing foot faults. There seems to be an obsession out there about foot faults. From my point of view it should only be relevant in professional tournament tennis with an umpire. Outside of that it should just be forgotten. I play competitive tennis but it is amateur and for fun. I am flabbergasted by the number of players complaining that your foot goes over the line. In amateur tennis without an umpire this concern should be completely thrown out of the window. It is ridiculous and it used by some opponents to upset their opposition
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Thanks for people's interest on the topic. I think all points are valid, my concern is that opposition can use the " Foot Fault " call to deliberately upset their opponent. Only last week I was told of an incident I did not witness. It was Doubles and an opponent on the next court ( yes different game ) was calling a guy in our team for foot faulting which I think was quite inappropriate and it was done to " stir" him up and it worked!!
 
I'm not for calling foot faults on very close faults at the rec level even at the rec tournament level But some people I have played step easily a foot into the court before contact. I had one player that I played often that was guilty of this so I began actually stepping into the court approximately a foot then serving. After doing this several times he questioned me why I was doing this and I explained even though I had pointed it out to him in the past. Fortunately a few people were watching the match and voiced their opinions. He immediately stopped. We are still friends,just very competitive...
 
Martin Davey said:
Thanks for people's interest on the topic. I think all points are valid, my concern is that opposition can use the " Foot Fault " call to deliberately upset their opponent. Only last week I was told of an incident I did not witness. It was Doubles and an opponent on the next court ( yes different game ) was calling a guy in our team for foot faulting which I think was quite inappropriate and it was done to " stir" him up and it worked!!
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That's why, if you're on a team and in contention to going to play-offs, you better have a captain who practices calling ff's on his team, because when the roving ump calls it, sub 4.5 players will fall apart, blow-up, and lose it big time and the match, and the chance to go to the next level. I've seen this with my own eyes--and it was a lawyer who got called, exploded like the Hindenburg at the roving up, told him it was "ONLY A TECHNICAL VIOLATION", and went on to lose the match for his "buddies" and advancement to nats. Experienced players will not freak out, move back a couple of inches and carry on--or ask "Which foot was it?" The lawyer perp is still contesting the ff'ing rule to SCOTUS, he's gotten to the Fed District level--should be about another five years 'til a final ruling--there's some Nolan, Dolan and Pullman abstentions still being contested. The final ruling will depend highly on whether the next SCOTUS appointees and their clerks are tennis players? In the meantime the ff'ing rule still stands--although some cities are declaring them ff'ing sanctuaries and their local USTA lines-people have been told to stand-down on calling them. This was brought about by the Serena appeal. Nike wrote "Paid in protest" on the back of their $92,000 check.
 
I'm confused. Do you mean they are looking the other way on ffs. As I have mentioned above to what level do ff's not count. I'm not familiar with the Nike fine. Could you please explain. Could I then step in before serving. Not trying to be a wise guy but this seem strange.
 
"...he has stepped inside the base line, thereby gaining from one to three feet of space over which the ball must travel." H. Hopman, 1975
 
Martin Davey said:
Hi I am interested in discussing foot faults. There seems to be an obsession out there about foot faults. From my point of view it should only be relevant in professional tournament tennis with an umpire. Outside of that it should just be forgotten. I play competitive tennis but it is amateur and for fun. I am flabbergasted by the number of players complaining that your foot goes over the line. In amateur tennis without an umpire this concern should be completely thrown out of the window. It is ridiculous and it used by some opponents to upset their opposition
Click to expand...
Its a rule of the game that is generally overlooked or at least players are given a wide latitude, in the spirit of friendly competition.

When things get contentious on the court, then all the petty bickering surfaces. The real reason for the bickering isn't the 2 inch footfault (or any of a million things opponents can "suddenly" find issue with). It's the pressure.

In these situations, it's best to remember that it's fruitless to try and "reason with/against emotion".
 
Robert F said:
I don't think they should be forgotten. Yeah if your foot just touches the line in rec tennis who cares. But if it is giving the server an unfair edge, I think it shouldn't get ignored.

I've played some folks in rec tennis who are hitting the ball 3-4 feet inside the line.
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I've never seen anyone that bad. 3-4 FEET? You must mean they are contacting the ball 3-4 feet inside the line, which, I guess isnt so bad. I dont think their actual feet are going 3-4 feet inside the court when they serve. That's almost impossible.

tennis tom said:
That's why, if you're on a team and in contention to going to play-offs, you better have a captain who practices calling ff's on his team, because when the roving ump calls it, sub 4.5 players will fall apart, blow-up, and lose it big time and the match, and the chance to go to the next level.
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Correct. This should be part of a "play-off practice".

Calling the score as well. Our womens team went to nationals and we had this one combo of women who just couldnt keep score. They played great together, but during every practice I would just stop them in the middle of a game and ask each of them what the score is. There isnt an easier way to cheat in tennis than to talk your opponents into always being down, especially in a tie breaker.
 
Martin Davey said:
Thanks for people's interest on the topic. I think all points are valid, my concern is that opposition can use the " Foot Fault " call to deliberately upset their opponent. Only last week I was told of an incident I did not witness. It was Doubles and an opponent on the next court ( yes different game ) was calling a guy in our team for foot faulting which I think was quite inappropriate and it was done to " stir" him up and it worked!!
Click to expand...

Obviously, an opponent on a different court isn't supposed to call foot faults, just like someone on a different court isn't supposed to interfere with any line calls.
 
NTRPolice said:
I've never seen anyone that bad. 3-4 FEET? You must mean they are contacting the ball 3-4 feet inside the line, which, I guess isnt so bad. I dont think their actual feet are going 3-4 feet inside the court when they serve. That's almost impossible.
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I know it sounds ridiculous but it is true. He'd toss the ball 3-4 feet into the court, and unlike pros who lean in with their upper body and keep their feet either in the air, or behind the baseline to strike the ball before landing in the court, my guy would step into the court and then hit the ball. Almost like travelling in basketball. Imagine tossing the ball up high and forward, then stepping into the court as if if hitting an overhead.

When I called him on it, most of the other guys who regularly played him thanked me because it was so flagrant. He then started calling foot faults on me and he struggled to get his serve in when he kept serving from the baseline, because his ball barely cleared the net, he needed the three feet in the court to help.

Unfortunately, I've just accepted it with him to avoid social conflict. Although clearly illegal and it gives him a really odd short spinny serve many struggle with, it is not impossible.
 
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bottom line - it is so hard to call and results (most of the time with the less than blatent ff's) in little to no advantage, that it is a good sportsmanship idea to give the benefit of the doubt to the server.

It's like challenging an opponent's out call on his baseline when you hit a flat shot that looks like it is sailing long and you are 6 feet behind your baseline.
 
heninfan99 said:
IMO in rec tennis it only needs to be called on serve & volleyers but they are very rare these days.
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NTRPolice said:
...I would only call foot faults when the opponent clearly isnt trying to stay behind the line and is taking advantage of that fact.
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Last time i saw this regularly (decade ago?)... was a guy with a dink serve, but tossed the ball like 6ft into the court... so he took like 2-3 steps inside the court (on his way to the net in doubles) before making contact.
For me if you have a "proper" decent serve motion (ie. elevating up and into the ball, vs. frying pan motion), and you start more or less behind the line, i won't call it... but with the dink server example it was so obvious i made a big deal about it.
 
Let me guess OP, you're a foot faulter. :rolleyes:

Seriously, if I'm playing for fun, I won't call ffs though I'll politely tell my opponent he's ffing. In college matches though, an official will call ffs at seemingly random times, so you have to be careful to avoid them.
 
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I play in a couple of men's singles leagues at my club, there are a few guys who cross the centerline by a few inches while serving, and I never call it. But if this happened during a USTA match, I'd give a warning, then call it.
One guy I used to play told me that when he was playing in high school he called an opponent for foot faults, and both the opponent's coach as well as his own told him there was no such thing as foot faults (a lot of high school tennis coaches don't play or know tennis). So his next service game he walked up to the net and served. He got his point across, both ways.
 
In recreational tennis, you have to let it slide unless it's a competitive tournament. My own view is that chronic foot faulters, especially if they are fairly good know exactly what they are doing to try to gain some sort of unfair advantage which I find to be a major turn off. Why not just play by the rules?
 
In practice with friends and teammates, I've never called a foot fault.

In competitive matches, I've warned an opponent about a foot fault and I've had it called against me years ago. It is pretty easy to call in doubles when you are the receiver's partner. I will only call it if it is substantial like several inches over the line and not just a scrape of the toes. My view is if an opponent has a big serve why should they be allowed to put their foot into the court to serve. I practice to avoid foot faults and so should my opponent. Their tough luck if they foot fault and they should learn to serve without breaking the rules.

I've seen people slide their entire foot into the court before striking the serve and that's ridiculous. Learn to serve properly.
 
I've never called anyone on a foot fault but definitely observed some egregious types that get, not one, but two feet into the court before hitting the ball!

Usually these people don't have great serves anyway so I'm not going to fuss. But it irks me everytime I see these people. I mean how hard is it to keep your feet behind the baseline? Bowling, curling, darts, basketball, and other sports have rules about where you can stand for your shot and people don't constantly break those rules.
 
TennisCJC said:
In practice with friends and teammates, I've never called a foot fault.

In competitive matches, I've warned an opponent about a foot fault and I've had it called against me years ago. It is pretty easy to call in doubles when you are the receiver's partner. I will only call it if it is substantial like several inches over the line and not just a scrape of the toes. My view is if an opponent has a big serve why should they be allowed to put their foot into the court to serve. I practice to avoid foot faults and so should my opponent. Their tough luck if they foot fault and they should learn to serve without breaking the rules.

I've seen people slide their entire foot into the court before striking the serve and that's ridiculous. Learn to serve properly.
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Exactly. I'm keeping myself onside as best I can with the feet, and I would probably serve better if I didn't have to account for that, so why should they not have to worry about it?
 
Have never called a foot fault in a match although I have warned a few guys. It's amazing how much it gets in their head once you warn them. Also have called it when playing for fun with friends just to irk them.
 
Bluefan75 said:
Exactly. I'm keeping myself onside as best I can with the feet, and I would probably serve better if I didn't have to account for that, so why should they not have to worry about it?
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I really agree with this thinking but had an incident just today. Playing a decent 4.0 lost match 6-4,6-3 but he had a serve that I seem to come against much to often. He would toss ball up very high and almost run around under it to finish the stroke meaning the baseline seemed to mean nothing. I know the match meant nothing but shouldn't we both be playing by the same rules. I kept quiet but now your thinking is ringing in my head.
 
If you have a fundamentally sound serve, foot faults are negligible and I won't call them. If you have a waiters tray serve and terrible form/stance, your serve probably sucks and I feel sorry for you. Either way, I've never had to call one. If you play 4.5+, this is unlikely to be an issue you run across much.
 
Bobs tennis said:
I really agree with this thinking but had an incident just today. Playing a decent 4.0 lost match 6-4,6-3 but he had a serve that I seem to come against much to often. He would toss ball up very high and almost run around under it to finish the stroke meaning the baseline seemed to mean nothing. I know the match meant nothing but shouldn't we both be playing by the same rules. I kept quiet but now your thinking is ringing in my head.
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Well, it's true. I haven't had enough reps yet to get to the point where it's subconscious for me to not foot-fault, unless I go after a bad toss. I still need to think about my feet as well. We read all the time here about how much of a mental game this is.....

It just always amazes me how there is one rule that you're the bad guy if you point out it's being violated. Double hit? Opponent's point. Touch the net. Opponent's point. Step into the court while serving..... let them play. ???
 
In 40 years of tournament experience I only recall one match in which it became a big issue. Playing 9.0 USTA team tennis against a young teaching pro, recent college player, who had an absolute massive serve. Had played him a time or two before, and others watching had mentioned how badly he foot faulted. He would take about 2 steps inside the court before making contact... again, absolutely monster serve. Called him on it a few times that match, and of course it got ugly. Generally am friends with him, and have played him a couple of times since then without issue. I don't care if someone steps on the line, as long as they are not getting a big advantage on their serve. Know one or two other guys who foot fault badly, but they don't have big serves, so I generally don't make an issue of it.
 
This guy practices his serve on a regular basis. He also double foot faults every serve.
Told him he's 2 feet inside every time just to obvious to ignore.
Anyway he looks dumbfounded and step back hits his serve, wins the point and says oh this is better.
 
Totally disagree with the OP. It NEEDS to be stressed MORE. It is cheating, period. The only thing worse in my book are the people who volley the ball on their opponents' side of the net and think it's OK because they didn't touch the net...

At A7 (ALTA), I see FF's all the time and try to ignore it but it got to me last season and I finally had a dust up with our opponents. Both opponents were FF'ing and while the one guy was minimal which I'd normally grin and bear, the other guy had his back foot come up to 75%+ in the court and his front foot 50% in the court AND he did a lot of S&V so he was getting a pretty significant advantage.

So after his 2nd service game at a change I said politely, "Hey John, just watch your feet on your serve. You're really coming into the court especially on your 2nd serves." For a couple games he watched it and it was fine. Then in the 2nd set, we came back to make it 3-3 I think and he started doing it again. He served an ace on a particularly egregious FF and I said, "John, you're really coming into the court again." His partner retorted "well it's not like it would matter in this match, now would it?" So for the 1st (and only) time I told the guy what I thought of him after that jerkwad response and told him it was cheating just like hooking. Anyway, we still shook hands and mostly made nice but I still feel like I did when I have gotten hooked by several obvious calls.

Cheating is cheating.
 
Martin Davey said:
Hi I am interested in discussing foot faults. There seems to be an obsession out there about foot faults. From my point of view it should only be relevant in professional tournament tennis with an umpire. Outside of that it should just be forgotten. I play competitive tennis but it is amateur and for fun. I am flabbergasted by the number of players complaining that your foot goes over the line. In amateur tennis without an umpire this concern should be completely thrown out of the window. It is ridiculous and it used by some opponents to upset their opposition
Click to expand...
I know, some people seem to have trouble obeying simple rules.

I am glad you respect the rules of the game!

Oh wait......

:D
 
woodje12 said:
Cheating is cheating.
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Agree, these guys get into bad habits and when they get busted can't fix it without working on it in practice; during a match they revert to form. I'm not a mathematician, but from what I've read by great coaches like Harry Hopman, even a few inches of foot-faulting, multiplies exponentially into feet. By the time the ball travels into the opponent's service box, the few inches of ff'ing translates into a great advantage for the cheater. Club pros, and people who stand-by watching their friends and league-mates get into this bad habit are enablers. They'll be alright hacking about the club, but if they ever get to a tournament, it will bite them.
 
I feel the rules should state , first foot fault is a verbal warning , next five you loose a toe starting with the little one , and if you haven't learnt by then , the foot . This would prevent any future offences !
 
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