Topspin Shot
Legend
Bingo. End thread.
Footwork is not emphasized enough, nor is cusping.
- Thread starter kiteboard
- Start date
Stroke mechanics are useless without setting up right, as the ues will be off the charts, and control as well as any form of a good shot. That's why low ranked players are low ranked. Strokes take most of their practice, and footwork none. How many have you heard say, "I have better strokes than that hacker I lost to.", yet the hacker moves better and gets into position better which is ignored by the ignorant "better than he thinks", type player, who will blindly cast doubt on his own truth. Will not try anything new, or change anything about his game at all, just hit down the middle for an hour and a half for fun, not serving, returning, play any sets or tournament matches, and blindly hang onto the false belief he is better than the pathetic hacker he loses to every time. He vaguely knows something is wrong. But he cannot accept losing to someone whose strokes are so much worse than his.
So he just stops playing the hacker, who bests him due to faster feet, not at all with his powerless, crappy strokes. That happens on all levels: footwork beats strokes. The delusional azzhos will always blame something else for their ues, and ignore the truth and deny it, lie about it, and not hear the unheard voice.
Higher level players, are not as bothered by hackers. Do you know why? Because they have better footwork, and better strokes. That's what makes them better players, not just the hacking strategy of being able to soft block anything back without much pop/spin/or variety at all other than depth variation.
Articulation of something that happens whether you know it or not does not make it nonsense, it makes it an observation that you cannot articulate, cannot feel, cannot learn, cannot change, cannot accept, improve, or even try it once, yet you are able to say it's made up without any experience in your own game. Strange that so many on this board do the same, at all levels. That is why 99% of you will never win a single open match against a real open player.
So he just stops playing the hacker, who bests him due to faster feet, not at all with his powerless, crappy strokes. That happens on all levels: footwork beats strokes. The delusional azzhos will always blame something else for their ues, and ignore the truth and deny it, lie about it, and not hear the unheard voice.
Higher level players, are not as bothered by hackers. Do you know why? Because they have better footwork, and better strokes. That's what makes them better players, not just the hacking strategy of being able to soft block anything back without much pop/spin/or variety at all other than depth variation.
Articulation of something that happens whether you know it or not does not make it nonsense, it makes it an observation that you cannot articulate, cannot feel, cannot learn, cannot change, cannot accept, improve, or even try it once, yet you are able to say it's made up without any experience in your own game. Strange that so many on this board do the same, at all levels. That is why 99% of you will never win a single open match against a real open player.
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this whole discussion is pointless.
survival of the fittest... even the rec crowd knows what to practice based on what brings the maximum return of investment.
you look at most of the discussions around here... people aren't even sure what grip to use, how to do the 'flip', how to engage ISR/ESR etc etc, that is even if the balls are drop fed.
@SinjinCooper has about the same assessment as I have... below the high performance level (Div 1, 5.5 level, thereabout), stroke mechanic trumps footwork, in terms of return on investment (practice).
survival of the fittest... even the rec crowd knows what to practice based on what brings the maximum return of investment.
you look at most of the discussions around here... people aren't even sure what grip to use, how to do the 'flip', how to engage ISR/ESR etc etc, that is even if the balls are drop fed.
@SinjinCooper has about the same assessment as I have... below the high performance level (Div 1, 5.5 level, thereabout), stroke mechanic trumps footwork, in terms of return on investment (practice).
You have never played nor won a norcal match nor tournament, right? A 4.5 here, is a 5.0 in arkansas. University players enter 4.5 tournaments, and lose in the first round. Footwork is considered worthless by so many coaches and players who don't practice any set sequence, nor value that practice at all, placing all value on strokes, and see their charges drop to crappy pushers with no strokes every day. Why is that anyway? Better movement, more consistent set ups, less risk due to it. If you don't want to try cusp, or body fly, or large coiling, fine. Stay where you are forever and ever. Enjoy the place, 4.0 forever. No one will care, not even you.
The real players, do this without thinking about it, naturally, due to early childhood training. The people who can get something out of it, most won't try it, or hear it in their own bodies. YOu have to hear the shot in your body before you can hit it. Maybe only one here will hear what I am saying, so it is a waste of time for the most part, I agree, except to the guy whose game takes off.
The real players, do this without thinking about it, naturally, due to early childhood training. The people who can get something out of it, most won't try it, or hear it in their own bodies. YOu have to hear the shot in your body before you can hit it. Maybe only one here will hear what I am saying, so it is a waste of time for the most part, I agree, except to the guy whose game takes off.
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meltphace 6
Hall of Fame
@kiteboard
Clip of some points I played yesterday (no serves because of low temperature; I'm proud of the very last point). Where would you go from here re footwork (I'm the guy in the white shirt; rec player, age 43)?
Holy hangover, Batman!
Clip of some points I played yesterday (no serves because of low temperature; I'm proud of the very last point). Where would you go from here re footwork (I'm the guy in the white shirt; rec player, age 43)?
Holy hangover, Batman!
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Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I beg to differ: what you are describing is similar to a jamming serve, meaning that it takes a lot of quickness and about 3 steps to get out of the way and create the space to hit a proper shot, when the ball is pounded straight at you- as opposed to say 1.5-2m(or 6 feet) to the side.
But without splitting hairs
I see your point as well, some consistency/stroke mechanics is a basic requirement for anyone closer to 3.5-4.0, maybe even more so than footwork
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Hey you and Murray
Having said all of that, you'd bother me as well (and I have partners like you)
I beg to differ: what you are describing is similar to a jamming serve, meaning that it takes a lot of quickness and about 3 steps to get out of the way and create the space to hit a proper shot, when the ball is pounded straight at you- as opposed to say 1.5-2m(or 6 feet) to the side.
But without splitting hairs
what i actually meant was hitting right into the guys racket lol.... we are on the same page.... you pound balls into the racket of the rec crowd, they usually can NOT reply consistently.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
But would you qualify that please?
I had similar thoughts, among the lines that most people who practice tennis don't care enough about it and as such they prefer to work on their stroke mechanics/technique mainly and not on the physical preparation/footwork. Personally, more often than not, I expect the later to be a by-product of the former (to sort of happen naturally so to speak).
Any one else thinks the same? I'm talking bellow 4.5 here, more like around 3.5-4.0 max and not young anymore, nor having been taught tennis the proper way (just picked it up as an adult).
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I agree 100% but I also have at least one friend, who with a little better preparation and footwork would be able to reply consistently.
The funny part is that he should know it, since he has two teenage daughters who used to train professionally and he followed their lessons etc. (as per him).
He frustrates me, but he is a friend and we play for social purposes like once a week.
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ON the short ball, you did not get sideways once you hit it, so a tango step would help. On split steps, use an advanced split, that is, go up, and as you learn, when in the air, where and which side he's going to hit to, turn that foot to the side, and land with that foot sideways, and the other foot as plant foot, towards the net. Otherwise, your feet are fast, your strokes are consistent, you have good speed/quickness of footwork!
A better job than most on here can do. Sometimes, your plant foot on bh, is also not sideways, but pretty good overall. Do these things and your consistency and confidence will go through the roof.
meltphace 6
Hall of Fame
Thanks a lot for taking the time to watch the clip and for your feedback. In the video at 01:26 - is this what you describe as "advanced split"? I often mis-time the split step (need to pay closer attention to my opponents racquet/swing path/racquet face orientation shortly before contact).
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Yes.
The reason for the advanced split is: it will turn your upper body/torso faster than a normal split, and give you a few miliseconds more to get ready as you are already coiled sideways and ready to clobber the fricking ball. The plant foot facing the net, off advanced split, also gives you a more solid base off the stepping foot, which is alread sideways, as your weight lands on the plant foot first, off advanced split. The reason to tango step is the same, that it gets you sideways at the short ball/net. Sideways plants at net, will improve your volley game immensely, as it solidifys, and stabilizes your upper body and forearm.
That's right, but more exaggerated, so you have to go up higher in the air, to give yourself more time, to decide to go sideways, with the step. Like I said, you are already someone who should be proud of your game and movement, just a few little tweaks, but that being said, the improvement is what a great player lives for!
The reason for the advanced split is: it will turn your upper body/torso faster than a normal split, and give you a few miliseconds more to get ready as you are already coiled sideways and ready to clobber the fricking ball. The plant foot facing the net, off advanced split, also gives you a more solid base off the stepping foot, which is alread sideways, as your weight lands on the plant foot first, off advanced split. The reason to tango step is the same, that it gets you sideways at the short ball/net. Sideways plants at net, will improve your volley game immensely, as it solidifys, and stabilizes your upper body and forearm.
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Dude ... you can play. Love the 1hbh. Nice. To improve footwork ... find a hard court.
The pointed end of the two curves () the rear most point of your groundstrokes, depends on how far back you drive your back swing. The back swing and forwards swing are always curved and there is always a rear most point at which the back swing begins its way forwards. If you focus on driving the frame back farther, and at the point at which you begin your forwards swing, focus on speeding up the acceleration at that point, you will find that almost no shot can beat you. You will also begin to hit more powerful shots than you have been capable up until now. Everybody misses shots, yeah, but you will have more weapons and fewer mistakes once you begin to master it.
That, along with sideways planting, and advanced split stepping, tango stepping, gravity recovery and net attack steps, will drive your weight more firmly into a solid and consistent base even under the worst duress.
It's no coincidence that the best defenders in history, Chang, Murray, Nadal, all have high split steps and heavy gravity steps on recovery. They provide a greater weight into the ground. That means more kinetic potential to burst off of. High level defenders practice footwork more physically than just great offensive players do, although, great footwork also improves offense, it is really important in defense. Makes them feel they cannot hit a winner, and have to in order to win, a must and cannot situation. Belief begins to crumble. No great defender does not have great footwork. Plenty of great offensive players, esp. women, don't have great defensive footwork, just great set up footwork.
That, along with sideways planting, and advanced split stepping, tango stepping, gravity recovery and net attack steps, will drive your weight more firmly into a solid and consistent base even under the worst duress.
It's no coincidence that the best defenders in history, Chang, Murray, Nadal, all have high split steps and heavy gravity steps on recovery. They provide a greater weight into the ground. That means more kinetic potential to burst off of. High level defenders practice footwork more physically than just great offensive players do, although, great footwork also improves offense, it is really important in defense. Makes them feel they cannot hit a winner, and have to in order to win, a must and cannot situation. Belief begins to crumble. No great defender does not have great footwork. Plenty of great offensive players, esp. women, don't have great defensive footwork, just great set up footwork.
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Bender
G.O.A.T.
Nice strokes there!
I think what @kiteboard is saying is that developing players need to improve their footwork to something that at least has some passing resemblance to what you have. Compared to the average amateur tennis player, you have fantastic footwork.
Quite a lot of people I see have footwork closer to this:
This actually comes up alot on this forum - some griping about footwork..
Here is the truth IMHO - your 3.5/4.0 player which is the bulk of the population might have shoddy footwork - but they are playing against guys without big weapons. This means that with rudimentary footwork - aka split - recovery - moving to the ball - they can get to most balls and be in pretty good position.
So that means that for them - getting greatly superior footwork - is not going to help them on every ball. Now as their strokes and technique improve (if it does) they will face players with better weapons - who put more pressure on them. Then they will seek out ways to improve their footwork to cover ground more effectively on the court.
It all works together fairly lockstep IMHO. I have noticed for example guys with fantastic serves - generally have very good groundstrokes too, and fairly decent footwork. Why? Because as players get better then will improve on any weaknesses holding them back. So you don't really have to push any magic bullet.
We shouldn't get into this 'problem of the month situation'
The problem is rec players don't volley like Fed..
The problem is rec players don't serve like Roddick..
The problem is rec players don't have footwork like Chang etc..
Rec players are sub-par in all aspects in a relatively uniform way for the most part. Some 3.0s might move better and have ****tier servers. Some 3.5s might hit better serves and groundstrokes but be slow - etc. But generally speaking - its one progression upwards. Footwork is not the holy grail..
Never seen a buddy buy a bailey's footwork video and go onto the superstar at tennis..
Slow steady improvement of max a level or so is all I see out of adult players - and they need to improve all aspects of their game to get that 1.0 - 1.5 bump..over the course of several years..
Here is the truth IMHO - your 3.5/4.0 player which is the bulk of the population might have shoddy footwork - but they are playing against guys without big weapons. This means that with rudimentary footwork - aka split - recovery - moving to the ball - they can get to most balls and be in pretty good position.
So that means that for them - getting greatly superior footwork - is not going to help them on every ball. Now as their strokes and technique improve (if it does) they will face players with better weapons - who put more pressure on them. Then they will seek out ways to improve their footwork to cover ground more effectively on the court.
It all works together fairly lockstep IMHO. I have noticed for example guys with fantastic serves - generally have very good groundstrokes too, and fairly decent footwork. Why? Because as players get better then will improve on any weaknesses holding them back. So you don't really have to push any magic bullet.
We shouldn't get into this 'problem of the month situation'
The problem is rec players don't volley like Fed..
The problem is rec players don't serve like Roddick..
The problem is rec players don't have footwork like Chang etc..
Rec players are sub-par in all aspects in a relatively uniform way for the most part. Some 3.0s might move better and have ****tier servers. Some 3.5s might hit better serves and groundstrokes but be slow - etc. But generally speaking - its one progression upwards. Footwork is not the holy grail..
Never seen a buddy buy a bailey's footwork video and go onto the superstar at tennis..
Slow steady improvement of max a level or so is all I see out of adult players - and they need to improve all aspects of their game to get that 1.0 - 1.5 bump..over the course of several years..
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I finally could watch your video from home and I agree: nice hitting, especially on the BH being on a par with your FH, if not better!
meltphace 6
Hall of Fame
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
No idea, sorry.
Honestly, I'm a bit upset b/c I had bought a couple more new 6.1 95 16X18 last summer (and have at least 4 now), just to switch recently to 97s.
I can swing it faster (btw our strokes are kinda similar), due to its lower static weight, but still having a high swing weight (makes it easy to kinda of throw the racket at the ball, as someone else posted here). 97s is also stable enough and of course more manoeuvrable (important when pressed) and more powerful than 6.1 95. Occasionally though is not as stable when dealing with hard balls. Overall the pluses outweigh the minuses for me.
I can guess why you are happy with the 6.1 95 though, you seem faster on your feet then me ( who also try to do more unit turn and sometimes I'm just shuffling instead of split stepping, etc. I'm also very heavy, 105kgs/230 Lbs, like Tsonga, at 1,87cm or 6'2").
I agree. Great to see someone with great footwork.
Great post and follow up. Don't think of swing separate from movement. The swing and split step are nodal points of one complete cycle. If moving well, then the swing's prep/coil an intensification of running. Borg on deep backhand. Springs off front/perpendicular foot and at end braces off back perpendicular foot.
Topspin Shot
Legend
He's making a joke of it. Oh well. Maybe someone will get something good out of it.
AlexR
Rookie
I get that people like to argue. So do I. But this subject of "what's really important/challenging/under-emphasized is a ludicrous thing to argue about. When I screw up a shot, sometimes it's because i didn't get my feet set up well enough. Or because I didn't make an adjustment with my wrist that I needed to. Or because of some random upper body coiling thing i didn't do, or i pulled my head off the ball because i randomly tried to murder it for no good reason (ok, the awesome feeling when those balls go in is a good reason), or because i'm tired, or just not focused...
It's a sport as challenging as you are serious about it. that's why it's a relatively popular sport. And as for footwork being "underemphasized" i bet most people who ever get even moderately interested in playing get told pretty early on that what your feet do is a key part of the game. every pro tennis commentator is like contractually bound to praise/critique the players' footwork at least twice a match.
It's a sport as challenging as you are serious about it. that's why it's a relatively popular sport. And as for footwork being "underemphasized" i bet most people who ever get even moderately interested in playing get told pretty early on that what your feet do is a key part of the game. every pro tennis commentator is like contractually bound to praise/critique the players' footwork at least twice a match.
AlexR
Rookie
Eh I guess I see your point. Maybe arguing about it is a way to educate about it. An argument is more interesting than, like, "REMINDER: footwork is also important!" Then again I would read that post, hoping for a video of someone's horrendous plodding.
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
So you're saying that the secret is to stroke until you are on the cusp of exploding?
loosegroove
Hall of Fame
Well last time with my mixed doubles partner, since her service game was off, I told her enough with the cusping, and just get it in the box.
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Rubens
Hall of Fame
Exactly. Just think about Ana Ivanovic. Works all the time.
Topspin Shot
Legend
DavidGibson
New User
This is the second most bizarre post I've ever read, The first being your opener.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Looks like she retired because she couldn't handle your cusping or exploding
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Excellent hitting. The tennis aside, you know the one real problem I see here? No evidence of beer drinking - I mean none whatsoever, and I am disappointed. Plainly you need to consume more, much much more!
meltphace 6
Hall of Fame
Thank you and thanks for your suggestion. There's a good opportunity after tonight's social doubles I'm afraid.
Cheers!
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
How big is that part of the reason? We will never know.
I know for sure that we all play with the fitness we got and you cannot hit the ball without some sort of footwork, unless it's wheelchair tennis.
I think footwork is much less emphasized and practiced than the strokes is ...it's just too abstract and boring. Stroke is more immediate and easier to see. When people make an error of a shot, they immediately attribute it to the swinging. It takes more intelligence to look at the bigger picture, especially at abstract things.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I dropped 75 pounds many years ago.
My fitness and footwork improved considerably.
I find fitness to be enjoyable. I load up my iPod Nano with podcasts and music and enjoy the fresh air outside. Indoor track is second-best option and the worst is the treadmill. I usually have more podcasts than time to work out. It's 35 degrees out right now and I'm just about to go out for a run.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Of course great fitness helps big time.
But it's not like everyone comes to the court without an OK fitness. Plus, majority play doubles. Plus, they pick similar level opponents/friends to play with.
You make it sound like footwork is only possible to learn if you drop that many lbs or have a great physicality like a pro.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
There is no downside to fitness.
You'll feel better day-in and day out and you're less susceptible to injury because you have the strength and endurance to do more things.
My experience is that it's a lot easier to pick up your feet and put them down if you're in great shape. If you're running a few miles a day, you'll have plenty of practice and energy to pick them up and put them down.
Off The Wall
Semi-Pro
Impressive hitting. At 43 I remember asking myself if I wanted to run down shots. By the time I got my answer, it was too late. You are looking very spry and agile. Keep doing what you're doing.
meltphace 6
Hall of Fame
Thanks a lot for your kind and motivating words. Tennis is definitely one of the drugs I don't want to quit and I'm lucky that I can spend more time on court than other guys my age. What's going on with your tennis?
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
FYB has a course on this and the teaching pro says rec players can copy most of the footwork just fine. I don't see anything in the basic Federer footwork that rec players
cannot replicate.
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sundaypunch
Hall of Fame
Can you recommend any good resources to learn these things?
Utube, google each footwork step. The slowing down thing, takes discipline, to move your feet fast no matter what the incoming shot, and plant sideways no matter what.
