For me, Fed has surpassed Jordan, Brady and Gretzky
- Thread starter McEnborg
- Start date
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
200% right
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Sounds about right. I think MJ is helped massively by a shoe brand tbh, and Fed may end up that way with the "RF" brand, and Ali was very charismatic and he was more than a boxer let's be honest.
Sometimes, even if they know they don't care either, lol. And sometimes I'm sad that more people don't share my appreciation for tennis/Federer. I remember first when Raonic made waves here and was at his most popular he was still behind the 4 NA sports on a highlights show. Basically tells you what you're dealing with.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Curious what definition you have of athlete. Jordan is by far a better athlete than Federer this is laughable to even compare them. Athleticism for me means physical abilities which have to be distinguished from the sport specific technical skill set. Federer is such a good tennis player because he has the technique to play every shot close to perfection, in terms of raw athleticism however Nadal is far ahead. Jordan is in a complete different universe. Guys like Jordan, Wilt or Lebron could have been professionals and maybe even ATGs in different sports, Federer not in a million years.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Sure complete mugs. TTW never ceases to amaze.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
I don’t really understand why NFL players or even worse formula one drivers are mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan, Federer or to a lesser extent Gretzky. What’s next? Why don’t mention WWE fighters. Hulk hogan is the GOAT of all sports.
D
Deleted member 758560
Guest
motorsport is a priori the most unfair kind of sports in the world
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
D
Deleted member 758560
Guest
no, i didn't yet
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Interested to hear your take on which sports those basketball players could be great players or ATG's in. Maybe decent players in American football, but nowhere near top tier players IMO. As far as athleticism goes, I think tennis has the broadest range of overall skills required to be successful so Federer (and Nadal and Djokovic) gets put atop the "athlete" list for me.
As far as Federer goes, he'd probably be a pretty good player (professional) at any sport with a racquet involved outside of tennis. Like say squash or table tennis.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
As I said it depends on the definition of athleticism. Wilt chamberlain was close to Olympia level in decathlon and is in the HOF in volleyball on top of playing multiple other sports. Lebron was a great American footballer during high school and many experts believe he could have achieved big here too. Jordan did a switch and played baseball on a semi professional level. What I am referring to is not what would have happened had they chosen another sport during childhood but could they have switched sports during their career and being professional or semi professional in different sports as well, like for example Bo Jackson who played both MLB and NFL at the same time. Wilt sure as hell could and Jordan could at least on a semi professional level. Lebron could most likely be a decent Footballer. Federer on the other hand, if he tomorrow decided to try squash or table tennis would never come close to being anywhere top level there. Sports like American football and basketball require much more athleticism and much less sport specific technique than tennis such that Most guys excelling there are physical freaks that can use their athleticism in other sports as well.
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
The one I'm least sure about is table tennis. I'm sure he'd have been a monster badminton player with a killer forehand and backhand smash. Even amongst the top pros, having a killer backhand smash is a rarity. Taufik Hidayat comes to mind.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Table tennis is way more different to tennis than one might think. I played both in my youth and can tell you for sure. The fact that Federer has ATG talent in tennis does not necessarily mean he has any talent in table tennis.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah I understand. Though I still think Federer could've been a professional in more than just tennis. I've heard that he was pretty good at European football for example, and I think he'd be professional at something like squash or badminton like -NN- pointed out.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Well pretty good pushes it a little. There are videos of him playing football and he is not bad by any means, but having played football myself for many years I can tell you that one can immediately see that he never ever would have come close to play at the pros. It was definitely the right decision to choose tennis. I cannot see how Federer could win in any sport other than tennis against somebody who is at least decent and has practiced the respective sport on a regular basis (maybe with the exception of things like badminton or squash where he might be a beast after a little training). Jordan or Lebron on the other hand I am sure can be absolute beasts in all things which require pure strength and athleticism like many track and field disciplines, American football, baseball etc. and would likely beat many people who have a hell lot more experience in these sports even without much practice.
clout
Hall of Fame
Wayne Gretzky is easily the GOAT of GOATs from a statistical perspective
He's the all time leader in points, goals, assists, and points/game in both the RS and playoffs; he's won the most MVPs. scoring titles and Pearson Awards; he has the single RS and playoffs record in points, assists and goals and has the most all-nhl team selections among centres. He was also the leader of arguably the greatest dynasty in NHL history (80's OIlers), winning 2 playoff MVPs along the way, and the craziest part is that if you were to eliminate all of Gretzky's career goals, he'd still be the all time points leader just by counting only his assists.
I know hockey has a lot of GOAT candidates but I don't think any of them are close to Wayne statistically. Other candidates include Mario Lemiuex who would've gave Wayne a run for his money but sadly his health betrayed him constantly, the same can be said with Orr. Gordie Howe is probably the closest to Wayne in terms of achievements and dominance, but even then I don't think Howe can truly make an argument for being the greater player. Sidney Crosby is another ATG player who is also somewhat of a what if since he dominated play in the lowest scoring and most competitive era in NHL history, while also losing several years of his prime to concussion ailments. Many have said that he would've put up over 200 points a year had he played in Wayne's era, which was significantly easier for players to score
MJ is second in terms of dominance. The Bulls are probably the greatest dynasty in NBA history and MJ was 6-0 in the NBA Finals in an 8-season span, while winning finals MVP all 6 times, to go along with 5 League MVPs, 10 Scoring Titles, and a DPOY award. His overall scoring ability, clutchness, two-way play, peak dominance, efficiency and impact to the game/his team are all on god-levels. The scariest part is that MJ achieved all that while only playing in 11 full seasons in his prime with the Bulls, or else he would've easily held way more records as well. Kareem, Magic and LeBron are the closest to MJ in terms of greatness, but I still think MJ's accomplishments are firmly greater those those aforementioned three.
Federer is third. At the moment, he's clearly the GOAT in tennis but I put him behind Wayne and MJ because his GOAT label could potentially be matched and exceeded over the next few years by Nadal or Djokovic, and he also has a losing record against both which doesn't help his cause either. With all due respect to the other ATGs in the NBA and NHL, no one is really that close to eclipsing MJ or Gretzky in terms of greatness.
Brady is fourth. Tom is the greatest winner in American football history and the Pats are probably the NFL's greatest dynasty ever, however, Tom being the GOAT is by farrrr the most disputable out of all the four athletes posted in this thread. To be honest, one of the only arguments Brady has to being the GOAT is his SB rings and playoff success, but football is a very team oriented sport and Brady has been fortunate to some extent to always play on such a great all around team. Manning is arguably a greater QB than Tom since he's won more accolades, has more records and better individual stats despite playing on inferior squads. Montana is also another player who has a strong argument for GOAT since he's undefeated in 4 SBs, which is pretty much unprecedented.
He's the all time leader in points, goals, assists, and points/game in both the RS and playoffs; he's won the most MVPs. scoring titles and Pearson Awards; he has the single RS and playoffs record in points, assists and goals and has the most all-nhl team selections among centres. He was also the leader of arguably the greatest dynasty in NHL history (80's OIlers), winning 2 playoff MVPs along the way, and the craziest part is that if you were to eliminate all of Gretzky's career goals, he'd still be the all time points leader just by counting only his assists.
I know hockey has a lot of GOAT candidates but I don't think any of them are close to Wayne statistically. Other candidates include Mario Lemiuex who would've gave Wayne a run for his money but sadly his health betrayed him constantly, the same can be said with Orr. Gordie Howe is probably the closest to Wayne in terms of achievements and dominance, but even then I don't think Howe can truly make an argument for being the greater player. Sidney Crosby is another ATG player who is also somewhat of a what if since he dominated play in the lowest scoring and most competitive era in NHL history, while also losing several years of his prime to concussion ailments. Many have said that he would've put up over 200 points a year had he played in Wayne's era, which was significantly easier for players to score
MJ is second in terms of dominance. The Bulls are probably the greatest dynasty in NBA history and MJ was 6-0 in the NBA Finals in an 8-season span, while winning finals MVP all 6 times, to go along with 5 League MVPs, 10 Scoring Titles, and a DPOY award. His overall scoring ability, clutchness, two-way play, peak dominance, efficiency and impact to the game/his team are all on god-levels. The scariest part is that MJ achieved all that while only playing in 11 full seasons in his prime with the Bulls, or else he would've easily held way more records as well. Kareem, Magic and LeBron are the closest to MJ in terms of greatness, but I still think MJ's accomplishments are firmly greater those those aforementioned three.
Federer is third. At the moment, he's clearly the GOAT in tennis but I put him behind Wayne and MJ because his GOAT label could potentially be matched and exceeded over the next few years by Nadal or Djokovic, and he also has a losing record against both which doesn't help his cause either. With all due respect to the other ATGs in the NBA and NHL, no one is really that close to eclipsing MJ or Gretzky in terms of greatness.
Brady is fourth. Tom is the greatest winner in American football history and the Pats are probably the NFL's greatest dynasty ever, however, Tom being the GOAT is by farrrr the most disputable out of all the four athletes posted in this thread. To be honest, one of the only arguments Brady has to being the GOAT is his SB rings and playoff success, but football is a very team oriented sport and Brady has been fortunate to some extent to always play on such a great all around team. Manning is arguably a greater QB than Tom since he's won more accolades, has more records and better individual stats despite playing on inferior squads. Montana is also another player who has a strong argument for GOAT since he's undefeated in 4 SBs, which is pretty much unprecedented.
Last edited:
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
With Gretzky you are spot on as I have mentioned in this thread as well. With respect to Jordan it is at least debatable whether he or Wilt is GOAT. Wilt actually holds a lot more records than Michael, the latter however arguably played in a tougher modern era. It is a little like a comparison between Federer/Nadal/Djokovic and Laver. Hakeem the Dream also seemed to have Jordan’s number more often than not, however coming short in the end due to playing in a worse team. So Jordan= Goat in basketball is not as clear as Nike wants to make you believe.
tennis132325
New User
If you're talking about being the best in different sports, then NFL cornerbacks are likely at the top. They have the best combination of agility, speed, and strength - as that's how they got the job.
Many average and even below average NFL cornerbacks would be better multi-sport athletes than MJ and Wilt.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Well since I am not to much into NFL and I guess those NFL cornerbacks are not very famous for the most part, I cannot say for sure. But I highly doubt it in case of Wilt. This guy was simply out of this world, with only Bo Jackson coming close IMHO.
Federer is not the greatest of his own sport let alone across sports. As many people have posted on this site on other threads the statistics show Federer's career highlights remarkably dipped in his peak years once Nadal and Djokovic truly arrived. No other great sportsmen or women in other sports were dominated by rivals the way federer has been.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Well it is at least debatable/not so clear with Laver and Nadal and/or Djokovic coming close in achievements with both having still the chance to surpass him. As others have pointed out, there are people in other sports who are way more far ahead of their competition in the sense, that their records most likely will never be broken - let alone by guys from their own or next generation (e.g. Gretzky in hockey and Phelps in swimming).This is not a good post.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
This is true as well. I would guess nobody would consider Ali in GOAT conversations in boxing neither, had he lost all three fights to Frazier, regardless of his win against Foreman who in turn beat Frazier, which still would make Ali a three times Heavyweight champion (so his overall achievements apart from H2H would not suffer).
tennis132325
New User
Wilt was perhaps the most athletic 7 foot human ever. Agreed.
But height would only help you in certain sports. So it would come down to what sports we are including in our little competition here.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
This is true. He would definitely have sucked in gymnastics for example. But I assume those nfl cornerbacks would also.
Service Ace
Hall of Fame
Brady is by far more objectively the GOAT in his sport than Fed is in his just fyi.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
True, but tennis is far more relevant sport than American football.
tennis132325
New User
Yeah, but legacy discussion in football is ridiculous.
There's a good chance that Aaron Rodgers/Peyton Manning/Drew Brees, or even Phillip Rivers/Ben Roethlisberger, would have been able to win so many rings in New England. The defense, special teams, offensive line, receivers/tight ends, running backs with great hands and run after the catch ability, and coaching was a gigantic reason for their success. They were 10-6 without Brady the year he was injured. They were 3-1 during his suspension last year.
So, although maybe 75% of people would say Brady is the best QB of all time, whereas only 40% would say Federer is the best tennis player of all time, in actuality, I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more confident that Federer is ACTUALLY a top 2 tennis player of all time than I am that Brady is a top 2 QB.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 758560
Guest
and ice hockey also
tennis132325
New User
To add to the above...
Heck, I think even some QB's that got pushed out of the league could have maybe had Brady's success if given the opportunity Brady had. Brady got to play as a game-manager for his first few years, on a great team. He slowly became a high usage QB over time. Many QB's don't ever get a chance to get 5 years of playing experience if they aren't great within a few years.
And who is known as the 2nd GOAT QB? Joe Montana. But he had Jerry Rice and Bill Walsh. Give Rice and Walsh to Marino/Elway/Moon/Boomer/Kelly/Simms/Favre/Aikman/Rivers/Rodgers/Manning/Brees and see what happens.
But my main point is, in a team sport, especially american football, there's so many variables. I truly have no idea who the best QB is. It can be any of 10 guys currently today. And any of around 30 guys all-time.
Heck, I think even some QB's that got pushed out of the league could have maybe had Brady's success if given the opportunity Brady had. Brady got to play as a game-manager for his first few years, on a great team. He slowly became a high usage QB over time. Many QB's don't ever get a chance to get 5 years of playing experience if they aren't great within a few years.
And who is known as the 2nd GOAT QB? Joe Montana. But he had Jerry Rice and Bill Walsh. Give Rice and Walsh to Marino/Elway/Moon/Boomer/Kelly/Simms/Favre/Aikman/Rivers/Rodgers/Manning/Brees and see what happens.
But my main point is, in a team sport, especially american football, there's so many variables. I truly have no idea who the best QB is. It can be any of 10 guys currently today. And any of around 30 guys all-time.
Last edited:
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
True. Hockey is at least big in Canada, Skandinavics, Russia and even to some extent in Middle European countries like Austria, Germany, Switzerland etc. American Football nobody gives a damn outside of the US.
Service Ace
Hall of Fame
But you say this like Brady doesn't have gaudy stats to back up his success. If having more rings than any other player in league history at any position isn't enough, let's just take a look at just some of his notable individual stats relative to his position:
D
Deleted member 758560
Guest
dan marino was in ace ventura pet detective
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
Tom Brady is so far and away the best quarterback of all time I don't really even think it's worth debate.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Don’t know much about NFL but I know that Brady has the most Super Bowls ever, and aged 41(!) is still dominating the competition. He must have a case therefore to be NFL GOAT.
I wouldn’t put him above Federer in an overall sports list though.
I wouldn’t put him above Federer in an overall sports list though.
tennis132325
New User
But you say this like Brady doesn't have gaudy stats to back up his success. If having more rings than any other player in league history at any position isn't enough, let's just take a look at just some of his notable individual stats relative to his position:
Most of those are just volume stats, lead by the guys who played the longest (Brady and Brees). Also, passing stats have been inflated over the years with rule changes. A 90 QB rating and 4,000 yards would get you the MVP in 1980, but it would mean you are a scrub in 2018.
Anyway, don't even look at all that stuff. Look at the game being played. A QB is one man in a full blown system of 11 guys and the coaches calling the plays. And he doesn't even come on the field on defense, or special teams.
And even just look at the thing you posted. Apparently you think Marino (0 rings), Brees (1 ring) and Favre (1 ring) are GOAT QB's. I think I would agree. So, is it possible that Montana is 2 times better than the three of them combined? And that Brady is 3 times better than them combined? LOL, no way.
The GOAT talk in team sports, especially american football, makes no sense. Which is one of the reasons I am here actually, trying to become a tennis fan.
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
But cornerbacks have vastly lower overall skillset required than hockey or, especially, tennis. Moreso, they have a vastly lower endurance requirements than hockey, tennis, basketball, soccer etc. NFL athletes, as great as many are, are seriously limited in many areas of all-round athleticism because of the way the game is organised.
Service Ace
Hall of Fame
Just want to point out that most QBs only have 2 rings at most so yeah, you have to include guys with 0 or 1 ring in the discussion, hence why Brady with 6 is overwhelmingly the best in his sport. Also, Percentage is not a volume stat. And guys should gain, not lose points for longevity.
tennis132325
New User
Yes, percentage was the one non-volume stat there. And the picture also had interceptions circled, which is a bad thing.
Regardless, it's still apples to oranges. We have no idea what Marino, Rodgers, Brees, or Elway could have done with the best coach of all time, a great defense, the best tight end of all time, a great offensive line, and good WR's.
But, I do know exactly what Pete Sampras would do when he's playing for team Pete Sampras. And I know exactly what Tiger Woods would do when he's on team Tiger Woods.
