For me, Fed has surpassed Jordan, Brady and Gretzky

T1000

Legend
Barkley was not a perennial choker. The one time in his prime he had a decent team he was a Paxson 3 away from getting to game 7. And 93 was probably only his 5th best year on top of that.

But yes Jordan's finals competition was probably on the weaker side in that he never had to face a GOAT-level team in the finals, while being on a couple of them himself. That and his relative lack of longevity compared to the other contenders probably takes him out of the discussion. Still the basketball GOAT though at the moment.

Back to Gretzky, while his combination of peak+longevity is easily GOAT level, you can argue that two guys had more impact than he did at their peaks (Hasek and Orr). Federer has the GOAT peak and will likely have the GOAT longevity as well.

Ted Williams should be on this list too. Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing in sports and Williams mastered that to a comical degree despite spending 5 prime/peak years at war. Or Willie Mays if you are going for a more all around baseball player.
Bonds is the GOAT. 2001-2004 is the most ridiculous stretch ever for a hitter. He was also an elite gold glove outfielder earlier in his career. 8 gold gloves and 3 MVPs before suspected PED usage. 2nd in career WAR, 15.5 more than Mays and only 4 behind ruth who had zero competition.
 

AiRFederer

Hall of Fame
So tell me, when did Barkley choke? Barkley was a top 3-5 player in the NBA for years, Cilic never came close to that.

Evaluating team sport athletes based on # of championships is garbage anyways.
Hasnt Barkley always been criticized for underperforming? I dont know if there is 1 instance or moment that I can point to but thats like saying Lebron gets a pass for 2011 Finals where he majorly underperformed all throughout and not just a single instance.
 

AiRFederer

Hall of Fame
Lol at people who say Jordan's era was weak.

He denied rings to several ATG's in the NBA.
The season they got the regular season win record the NBA was expanding with more teams and thus more crap teams. If Fed gets flak for beating Grand slam champions in hewitt roddick and old andre, then MJ should too especially in GOAT discussions. Fair is fair.
 
Comparing a team sports player with an individual performer is meaningless. For every goal scored, for every run scored, for every dunk made, there was the participation of atleast 4-5 team members who helped the player. In case of Fed or Ali etc, its their individual effort every step of the way. In my opinion, individual sport legends are way greater than team sports legends.
 

Rhino

Legend
If you took away every goal Gretzky scored in his entire career, he would still be the all-time points leader :eek:

He's not even on a different planet, he's in another universe.
I honestly could not even tell you what sport Brady and Gretzky play. I asked my wife, she said "I've never heard of them". To most people I know these guys are nobody.

He might be big in your country but Federer is big in EVERY country.
 

cluckcluck

Hall of Fame
Though with less Slams than Serena, he is greater than her because of the lack of competition Serena had in women tennis.
Serena did not have to compete with rivals of the importance of Nadal and Djokovic in her tour.
Imagine the analogy of Federer having the type of competition Serena had. How many Slams would he have had? 25/30+ is not a crazy number to figure.
Let’s also add that Serena rarely plays a full season. Federer has played a full season every year with exception of 2016 because he was out.
Serena only plays required events and usually pulls out of the smaller ones.
That’s not greatness.
 
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Deleted member 756486

Guest
I honestly could not even tell you what sport Brady and Gretzky play. I asked my wife, she said "I've never heard of them". To most people I know these guys are nobody.

He might be big in your country but Federer is big in EVERY country.
There’s countries outside of America?
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
If you took away every goal Gretzky scored in his entire career, he would still be the all-time points leader :eek:

He's not even on a different planet, he's in another universe.
Gretzky's whole peak came in the highest scoring period in NHL history by far. Not that it diminishes his GOAT stature because he is the best overall hockey player to ever live, but I get kind of tired about hearing the "most points ever" regurgitated a million different ways. Jagr would have easily approached his point total and probably surpassed it if his peak was in the highest scoring era instead of the lowest and he didn't spend years playing overseas.

Gretzky is the best but he's certainly not in another universe to guys like Orr, Hasek, Lemieux, and Jagr/Crosby to a lesser extent, especially when Orr and Hasek might have been better at their absolute bests. I won't hold Orr/Lemieux's injuries against Gretzky because part of being the best is health especially in such a physical sport, but Hasek basically got started in the NHL in his late 20's due to the Cold War, and still ripped off one of the most dominant runs of any individual ever. Tough not to wonder if he'd be the GOAT had he spent his whole career in the NHL.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Bonds is the GOAT. 2001-2004 is the most ridiculous stretch ever for a hitter. He was also an elite gold glove outfielder earlier in his career. 8 gold gloves and 3 MVPs before suspected PED usage. 2nd in career WAR, 15.5 more than Mays and only 4 behind ruth who had zero competition.
Can't give it to him because of roids. Williams had a similar stretch anyways despite skipping 3 years in the middle to go fight in a freakin World War. Granted talent pool was not as large then, but 42 year old Williams was still the best hitter in the league almost 15 years post integration so I really don't think it would have mattered. Bonds is still a top 5-10 player ever without roids though. In the modern era, I probably have him third behind Williams and Mays for position players, just ahead of Mantle.

If we're going by WAR, GOAT is Williams. 130 career WAR while basically missing FIVE years to go fight in WW2/Korea. Also, his WAR is the least variance prone because all of it came from hitting.

Ruth probably has an excellent case to be GOAT because of how good of a pitcher he was, but obviously that was probably the easiest era ever for offense, and it's just impossible to compare.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Hasnt Barkley always been criticized for underperforming? I dont know if there is 1 instance or moment that I can point to but thats like saying Lebron gets a pass for 2011 Finals where he majorly underperformed all throughout and not just a single instance.
Barkley was a beast in the playoffs. In his peak he dropped 26/14/5/2/1 on elite efficiency. Same is not true for a guy like Malone, who also played on better teams with a guy spoonfeeding him baskets.

Like I said, he played on garbage philly teams, absolute garbage, for his whole peak. Then the first time he got a good team, and he was still in decent shape, he took them all the way to the finals, giving the Jordan Bulls their toughest fight. Put up this game in the process in game 7 of the WCF, one of the best playoff performances ever. Oh yeah, he also put up another GOAT-level playoff performance in game 5 of that series with the series tied 2-2. The 93 Sonics were #1 in the league in SRS, were #4 in offense and #2 in defense, and beat the Stockton/Malone Jazz and Hakeem Rockets in the first two rounds so they were a very legit team and without Barkley GOATing in game 5 and 7 they win the series.

Charles Barkley had a lot of faults, but he was the farthest thing possible from a choker.

 

AiRFederer

Hall of Fame
Barkley was a beast in the playoffs. In his peak he dropped 26/14/5/2/1 on elite efficiency. Same is not true for a guy like Malone, who also played on better teams with a guy spoonfeeding him baskets.

Like I said, he played on garbage philly teams, absolute garbage, for his whole peak. Then the first time he got a good team, and he was still in decent shape, he took them all the way to the finals, giving the Jordan Bulls their toughest fight. Put up this game in the process in game 7 of the WCF, one of the best playoff performances ever. Oh yeah, he also put up another GOAT-level playoff performance in game 5 of that series with the series tied 2-2. The 93 Sonics were #1 in the league in SRS, had a top 4 offense and defense, and beat the Stockton/Malone Jazz and Hakeem Rockets in the first two rounds so they were a very legit team and without Barkley GOATing in game 5 and 7 they win the series.

Charles Barkley had a lot of faults, but he was the farthest thing possible from a choker.

My bad then. Was probably too much to put him in the same sentence as Malone in terms of playoff performances.

Although I stand by my original opinion that MJ has not seen the same level of competition Fed did.That 2 year period of him fking off and playing baseball will always be a dent in his resume considering how many people consider Hakeem as maybe the best peak of all time.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
My bad then. Was probably too much to put him in the same sentence as Malone in terms of playoff performances.

Although I stand by my original opinion that MJ has not seen the same level of competition Fed did.That 2 year period of him fking off and playing baseball will always be a dent in his resume considering how many people consider Hakeem as maybe the best peak of all time.
I would agree with that.

Hakeem is up there in terms of peaks, but I think 00 Shaq was just as good, and better in the regular season. I still think Jordan and LeBron have the GOAT peaks because their ability to just do everything. Lebron 2009 would be regarded as the best season ever if his teammates weren't complete trash.
 

AiRFederer

Hall of Fame
I would agree with that.

Hakeem is up there in terms of peaks, but I think 00 Shaq was just as good, and better in the regular season. I still think Jordan and LeBron have the GOAT peaks because their ability to just do everything. Lebron 2009 would be regarded as the best season ever if his teammates weren't complete trash.
Yep its between Shaq and Hakeem IMO. Coincidentally both were up against my spurs in Robinson and TD which made me hate Shaq for a while lol.

Lebron is on another level. I seriously think he's the GOAT. I mean people are already calling him the best overall player of all time. The fk does that mean? They are just afraid of the backlash they will recieve from MJ and kobe t@rds. But I digress.
 

MeatTornado

Legend
I honestly could not even tell you what sport Brady and Gretzky play. I asked my wife, she said "I've never heard of them". To most people I know these guys are nobody.

He might be big in your country but Federer is big in EVERY country.
That's your argument? What are we talking about here, the greatest athlete or the most popular athlete?

Gimme a break.
 

reds17

Rookie
I think they were all great in their time (of course Fed and Brady are still going at it). Gretzky's records were ridiculous, he's at the top of so many records in the NHL. He has almost 1,000 points more than anybody else has ever attained, it's crazy!

Huge Fed fan, so glad he got number 20 today!
 

Vanilla Slice

Semi-Pro
For me, I don’t think it’s possible or fair to compare GOATs across sports.

Jordan/Lebron, Brady, Ali, Gretzky, Federer, Jack Nicklaus, Messi, etc. are all the best in their respective sports no doubt. I don’t think it’s possible to objectively compare them.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Bonds is the GOAT. 2001-2004 is the most ridiculous stretch ever for a hitter. He was also an elite gold glove outfielder earlier in his career. 8 gold gloves and 3 MVPs before suspected PED usage. 2nd in career WAR, 15.5 more than Mays and only 4 behind ruth who had zero competition.
Please get serious "suspected PED". Bonds was on PED for many years at the end of his career. Don't dirty the conversation with this guy. Henry Aaron was a better baseball player than Barry Bonds.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Please get serious "suspected PED". Bonds was on PED for many years at the end of his career. Don't dirty the conversation with this guy. Henry Aaron was a better baseball player than Barry Bonds.
Bonds was clearly a better player than Aaron steroids or not. Bonds pre-steroids peak destroyed anything Aaron ever did and he would have had just as much longevity even if he hadn't juiced. Bonds was still a top 5 hitter in the league at age 43 when he got blackballed. He probably could have played in some capacity until he was 50 because he was that good.

Also, Aaron took greenies.
 

BGod

Legend
As much as I love Fed, Wayne Gretzky was truly something else. Not only could he score outright (50 goals in 39 games one year, 894 overall) the man has more assists than any other player has points; take away his goals and he's still the all-time NHL scoring leader. 13 times in the league's history did a player get 100 assists in one season - Lemieux and Orr both did it once, and Gretzky did it 11 times.

In a row.


Also, he was the fastest player to hit 1000 points, doing it in 424 games. The second fastest player to do so is also Gretzky, taking 433 games to run his point total up from 1000 to 2000. His numbers are mind-boggling.
Yeah you know his career was 1979-1999 which coincided with incredibly high scoring that only dropped dramatically in 1997 and continued until 05 and hasn't reached those levels since?

Lemieux was better offensively and Orr is the greatest skater. Bobby Hull lead the league in goal scoring 7 times while Ovechkin might equal that this year.

Federer is way ahead.
 
It’s hard enough to compare men’s tennis to women’s tennis, let alone men’s tennis to team sports.

Let’s just all appreciate the fact that we’ve witnessed the greatest men’s tennis player in the history of the sport without trying to declare him the Messiah.
 

FD3S

Hall of Fame
Yeah you know his career was 1979-1999 which coincided with incredibly high scoring that only dropped dramatically in 1997 and continued until 05 and hasn't reached those levels since?

Lemieux was better offensively and Orr is the greatest skater. Bobby Hull lead the league in goal scoring 7 times while Ovechkin might equal that this year.

Federer is way ahead.
I do know that - I used to use his era to run Gretzky down quite a bit back when I was younger, much to my current embarrassment. Yes, scoring was insanely high back in those days. Equipment, skating, and goaltending all evolved as time went on, and as a result the numbers in the G and A columns dropped, along with the numbers in GAA and SV% rising.

That said, while that particular era of hockey had a ton of high scorers, it was Gretzky who stood alone with the borderline gaudy numbers that he posted and even when he was supplanted by guys like Mario and Jagr he still lit opposing teams up regularly. Did it help that he played on a stacked team during his peak? Sure! But no one else on that Oilers squad, nor any other superstar in the league at that time was able to keep up with the pace set by No. 99 until Lemieux, who I agree was the superior player from a pure offensive standpoint and probably would have eclipsed Gretzky eventually if not for his health woes... but that's a what-if for another day.

It also speaks volumes that a diminished Gretzky in the last years of his career still took until his very last season (98-99) with the Rangers to stop being a PPG player, and this was deep into the 90's where scoring had indeed dropped since his heyday. Mario was the better pure scorer, Orr had him beat in skating, and Gordie Howe is Gordie Howe, but much like Federer now Gretzky's off the charts hockey IQ kept him a threat well into his twilight years, and during his prime let him run roughshod over the NHL. The extent to which he dominated his peers and made his own teammates better simply can't be chalked up to old-time hockey alone.

EDIT: Controversial scoring rubric here, but https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_season.html has a list of the leaders for adjusted season statistics; Gretzky has six of the top ten spots, with number one going to a man who played in the 1920s. This is almost certainly due to his playmaking ability instead of his goal-scoring, but still very impressive.
 
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TennisCJC

Legend
Bonds was clearly a better player than Aaron steroids or not. Bonds pre-steroids peak destroyed anything Aaron ever did and he would have had just as much longevity even if he hadn't juiced. Bonds was still a top 5 hitter in the league at age 43 when he got blackballed. He probably could have played in some capacity until he was 50 because he was that good.

Also, Aaron took greenies.
Aaron wasn't on "greenies". Aaron states he took a greenie once in his career and it made him sick. Aaron was a 3 time gold glove, a MVP and is the true home run king. Bonds is a cheater and please don't sully the names of these great athletes by including him. Bonds doped for many years and all his records are trash. Bonds destroyed his own integrity and we should give him what he didn't earn.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Aaron wasn't on "greenies". Aaron states he took a greenie once in his career and it made him sick. Aaron was a 3 time gold glove, a MVP and is the true home run king. Bonds is a cheater and please don't sully the names of these great athletes by including him. Bonds doped for many years and all his records are trash. Bonds destroyed his own integrity and we should give him what he didn't earn.
He doped because players with 1/1000th of his talent were doping and got all the headlines. Let's not pretend like he was the only guy doing it. He got caught up in an unfortunate trend around the league, and that's it. He got made an example of like A-Rod because they were the best. Steroids or no steroids, he's simply a fundamentally better player than Aaron.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
He doped because players with 1/1000th of his talent were doping and got all the headlines. Let's not pretend like he was the only guy doing it. He got caught up in an unfortunate trend around the league, and that's it. He got made an example of like A-Rod because they were the best. Steroids or no steroids, he's simply a fundamentally better player than Aaron.
Bonds cheated. I cannot support a doper. by the end of Bonds' career, his body was swollen and his head bloated. He used PED and HGH. Bonds is not the home run champion and blaming his cheating on others does not excuse him. All the others should be thrown out of the hall of fame too.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Yeah you know his career was 1979-1999 which coincided with incredibly high scoring that only dropped dramatically in 1997 and continued until 05 and hasn't reached those levels since?

Lemieux was better offensively and Orr is the greatest skater. Bobby Hull lead the league in goal scoring 7 times while Ovechkin might equal that this year.

Federer is way ahead.
Lemieux at peak might have been as good offensively, MAYBE, but since Gretzky's peak lasted a million times longer Lemieux has no argument. Orr's peak may well have been better so he'd have more of an argument, but once again Gretzky smokes him longevity wise. Jagr's peak and longevity were ridiculously good but he wasn't a center, so he falls just short of the Gretzky/Lemieux tier. Hasek is the only one with an argument. Hull and Howe played in a far shallower league, so it's tough to compare, like Ruth in baseball.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Bonds cheated. I cannot support a doper. by the end of Bonds' career, his body was swollen and his head bloated. He used PED and HGH. Bonds is not the home run champion and blaming his cheating on others does not excuse him. All the others should be thrown out of the hall of fame too.
I mean if you want a top 5 position player of the last 75 years out of the Hall because of your moral code then sure. But the Hall of Fame is about greatness, not morals. While Sosa and McGwire don't belong, Bonds and Clemens not being in is an epic joke.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
I do know that - I used to use his era to run Gretzky down quite a bit back when I was younger, much to my current embarrassment. Yes, scoring was insanely high back in those days. Equipment, skating, and goaltending all evolved as time went on, and as a result the numbers in the G and A columns dropped, along with the numbers in GAA and SV% rising.

That said, while that particular era of hockey had a ton of high scorers, it was Gretzky who stood alone with the borderline gaudy numbers that he posted and even when he was supplanted by guys like Mario and Jagr he still lit opposing teams up regularly. Did it help that he played on a stacked team during his peak? Sure! But no one else on that Oilers squad, nor any other superstar in the league at that time was able to keep up with the pace set by No. 99 until Lemieux, who I agree was the superior player from a pure offensive standpoint and probably would have eclipsed Gretzky eventually if not for his health woes... but that's a what-if for another day.

It also speaks volumes that a diminished Gretzky in the last years of his career still took until his very last season (98-99) with the Rangers to stop being a PPG player, and this was deep into the 90's where scoring had indeed dropped since his heyday. Mario was the better pure scorer, Orr had him beat in skating, and Gordie Howe is Gordie Howe, but much like Federer now Gretzky's off the charts hockey IQ kept him a threat well into his twilight years, and during his prime let him run roughshod over the NHL. The extent to which he dominated his peers and made his own teammates better simply can't be chalked up to old-time hockey alone.

EDIT: Controversial scoring rubric here, but https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_season.html has a list of the leaders for adjusted season statistics; Gretzky has six of the top ten spots, with number one going to a man who played in the 1920s. This is almost certainly due to his playmaking ability instead of his goal-scoring, but still very impressive.
Eh I don't think Lemieux was better offensively. Gretzky after his peak was still keeping pace with Lemieux in his. Gretzky's playmaking ability was just unmatched and that matters more from the center position.
 

mightyrick

Legend
For me, the list looks like this:

1) Michael Phelps - 23 gold medals across 4 separate Olympics. Just insane. The next closest is 9.
2) Usain Bolt - 45 straight 100m wins and 9.58s 100m all-time record.
3) Michael Jordan - Undefeated in championship finals. 6 finals appearances and 6 wins. 30.1ppg career average.
4) Wayne Gretzky - Uncountable records. They literally changed NHL rules because of Gretzky.
5) Roger Federer - 20 slams and uncountable records.

And to me, the greatest athlete of all time is Bo Jackson.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
For me, the list looks like this:

1) Michael Phelps - 23 gold medals across 4 separate Olympics. Just insane. The next closest is 9.
2) Usain Bolt - 45 straight 100m wins and 9.58s 100m all-time record.
3) Michael Jordan - Undefeated in championship finals. 6 finals appearances and 6 wins. 30.1ppg career average.
4) Wayne Gretzky - Uncountable records. They literally changed NHL rules because of Gretzky.
5) Roger Federer - 20 slams and uncountable records.

And to me, the greatest athlete of all time is Bo Jackson.
Swimming and track top 2? cmon...
 
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Deleted member 742196

Guest
He did that for me with Aussie Title last year.

He has more records in his sport than any other athlete in theirs.
While he [Federer] has surpassed Gretzky for me too, nobody in any major sport, is as far ahead of the rest as Gretzky. His [Gretzky] career/stats are so far ahead of everyone else’s it seems unreal.

*major sport. For a niche sport nobody can top Esther Vergeer in wheelchair tennis:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2008/aug/31/paralympics
 
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Deleted member 742196

Guest
The only logical reason someone would rate Jordan above Gretzky is if they only watched basketball and didn't care about hockey.
Well said. Nobody that followed both sports would think Jordan and Gretzky were anywhere in the same stratosphere.
 
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Deleted member 742196

Guest
It's too difficult to compare to team sports players to individual sports players. Gretzky should be compared to the Bryan brothers.
Canadians. And Americans. And Russians. Oh wait, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Czech Republic.

Wait, quite a few damn countries have deep hockey cultures. Thanks for bringing it up!
 
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Deleted member 742196

Guest
Beyond the gaudy stats where Federer reminds me of Gretzky is the way both of them play compared to the rest of the field.

Gretzky was this scrawny guy, hardly a good skater, a weak power puff of a shot - you wouldn’t look at him and think there’s the most successful hockey player.

Federer has a similar quality - thin arms, not a booming cannon of a serve, no ground and pound power baseline tennis that seems to be the norm in the sport nowadays.

But watching them is special. They way each moved, found space, created patterns, seemed 3 steps ahead of everyone else. It’s something special.

Even yesterday, after the first set the match was on Cilic’s racquet - but Federer was always tactically just ahead. It’s exceedingly fascinating.

Federer is the most beautiful athlete in my time to watch, like Gretzky was.
 

AiRFederer

Hall of Fame
Humour me boys, boxing is Ali the undisputed GOAT? I think Floyd has a pretty good shot. Athletes of yesteryears always have nostalgia on their side just like how it is happening with Bill Russell even though Russell played in a 10 team league or something.
 
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Deleted member 742196

Guest
I think Jordan is the best athlete of all time. But Brady is right on his heels. I suspect people here won't be happy about that:)
I avidly follow all four - NFL, NHL, NBA and tennis.

I couldn’t disagree with the assessment the best all around atheletes probably would be found in basketball. And I wouldn’t have an issue saying that the QB position in the NFL is probably the most pressure filled in all of sports.

But somehow, in spite of all that, Federer to me has become the most impressive athlete in my time.
 
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Deleted member 716271

Guest
I avidly follow all four - NFL, NHL, NBA and tennis.

I couldn’t disagree with the assessment the best all around atheletes probably would be found in basketball. And I wouldn’t have an issue saying that the QB position in the NFL is probably the most pressure filled in all of sports.

But somehow, in spite of all that, Federer to me has become the most impressive athlete in my time.
The way I look at It, it can't be just about pure athleticism otherwise someone like Bo Jackson would be the best. I do think the sport has to have SOME athleticism involved so wouldn't include darts or bowling lol. Golf would be borderline. Obviously Jordan is more athletic than the rest. The real question is "best player" in a sport. Federer is a fair choice but I felt MJ was more excellent and clutch (I know I know). Just a bit more of a winner persona. Brady is right on MJs heels though, his longevity is more impressive (easier to do though as a quarterback). In favor of Federer, you could argue his raw achievements are more above his peers than the other 2. I guess Gretzky could have that argument as well, but it seems more of a limited sport in terms of the pool that is attracted to it and takes it seriously. Football is limited as well in the sense it is virtually unknown outside of US, but in US there is extreme competition, particularly to be a quarterback, which so few people can do adequately even though everyone wants to.
 

Rhino

Legend
That's your argument? What are we talking about here, the greatest athlete or the most popular athlete?

Gimme a break.
Yeah it is. Otherwise I would have to say that Patrick de Gayardon, the great French skydiver, is possibly the greatest athlete of all time. You may not have heard of him, but just trust me, he was amazing!

Actually while we're at it, Richie McCaw, the New Zealand rugby player, he has to be in consideration too, right?

And Jeb Corliss, the wingsuit flyer, he's got to up there.

No?

These guys don't ring a bell? Not popular enough?

Thats ok, we can have nobodys on the list, right? After all, do your research, these guys have been incredible athletes.
 
I love the mans game. Horrible off court personality cannot wait till this all comes out after the fact. For anyone discerning, his behavior on court was worse than Connoers and Mcenroe at their worst. Cursing umpires blubbering after winning and snuffing out anything for Marin. I mean Mcenroe and connors probably want to make a deal with the devil just to have one shot to beat this idiot. Worst nerd of all time, best game. God, what did we do to deserve such a goof?
 
Anyone ever see Connors or Mcenroe blubbering like idiots after winning? Sampras? Agassi? Just pathetic, the guy on a tennis court is a KING. Soon as he steps a few feet away, you see why he only gets Mirka to hug afterwards.
 
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