For me, returning a 3.0 caliber serve is hard than returning a 4.5 serve

I basically play a 2H Forehand as my “BH” for groundstroking but for the return of serve I turn the handle so Its a truer backhand with my dominant right hand
My right arm is dominant with the ROS and I can lift my left off if I have to
This make it easier to return the fast ones and then for slow ones can return to my regular groundstroke grip as I have time to setup
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
As you can see, the middle arrow is the most natural shot.
DTL has a great chance of going long or wide

Hitting it left has a huge chance to hit net or go long.
That is a precision shot that is 5.0+ level tennis.

N4Ai7l8HREOjJlWgXDqTiw.png
Click to expand...

I have been hitting BH returns in a more reliable stable way.
Just get the point started, and don't try to force a winner.
Focusing on big net clearance.

I have been hitting the middle arrow,
as the left arrow is too likely to go long,
and the right arrow is likely to go wide.

High % tennis is winning tennis.
 
FiReFTW said:
Those slow short dink serves almost that if the bounce twice wouldnt even get past service line almost really annoy me, specialy if opponent mixes them up with quite pacey flat serves so you have to stand further back, its very annoying having to sprint all the way to the net to return a serve and the next one is a flat bomb, its such annoying junk playing.
Click to expand...

Move your feet and put the ball away.
 
FiReFTW said:
Well yes, but you have to admit its annoying, and boring.
Click to expand...

Not really. You should always be moving your feet and ready for the short ball.

Boring? You have so many options to hit the ball. Drop shot. Deep to the backhand. Deep to the forehand. Topspin. Slice. Pace. Short angles. Great time to practice a variety of shots.
 
You’re getting a slow ball bouncing mid service box or maybe a little deeper. How does he get to an angled drop shot? A topspin short angle. I assume that the rest of his game matche his serve.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
For me, returning a 3.0 caliber serve is harder than returning a 4.5 serve
Click to expand...

Same conversation everyone has about losing to players you are "supposed to" win against. My son deals with this constantly at high school matches, where many players have NO real tennis experience but are athletic and can get a ball back. So for him, and most lower level players the challenge is always being able to apply your game like you are supposed to. One key for progression to top 4.0 and 4.5 is being able to do this.

I hit so much better when with good juniors, high school players and top coaches, but I still tend to play down when hitting with lower level players, so that is something I am working on.

We have a guy who has a banging first serve that is only sub 50% reliable, and then he only has an underhand second serve. You would not believe how many people can easily return his banger first serve, but how many errors he extracts on that second. And the second is an easy sitter short ball essentially.
 
ChaelAZ said:
Same conversation everyone has about losing to players you are "supposed to" win against. My son deals with this constantly at high school matches, where many players have NO real tennis experience but are athletic and can get a ball back. So for him, and most lower level players the challenge is always being able to apply your game like you are supposed to. One key for progression to top 4.0 and 4.5 is being able to do this.

I hit so much better when with good juniors, high school players and top coaches, but I still tend to play down when hitting with lower level players, so that is something I am working on.

We have a guy who has a banging first serve that is only sub 50% reliable, and then he only has an underhand second serve. You would not believe how many people can easily return his banger first serve, but how many errors he extracts on that second. And the second is an easy sitter short ball essentially.
Click to expand...

It helps to practice against pushers. They do cough up short balls from time to time.

It's good to practice against guys that hit with no pace because you have to really move your feet and judge where the ball is going to land and move your strike zone to that position.
 
I personaly think its more of a transition period.
When you are a noob and hit very slow dink shots over the net those slow dink shots you receive are easy because you hit them back slow and with no pace.

Once you reach a certain level of competence and start hitting decent pace shots, those really slow dink balls start being a problem since mentaly u think they are easy balls from inferior players and you want to put them away and hit with too much for your current level and miss alot into the net and long and do a ton of UE's and then ur pissed that a worse player beat you.

Its not that the worse player beat you its that you beat yourself.

Anyway once u improve and practice these short balls alot and get more competent to put them away they cease being a problem anymore and are easy points.
But you should still hit agressive and fast b7t also controlled, if your going to hit 100% on every such ball ur going to make errors, Federer is going to make errors, you cant just crush it with everything you have but hit it fast AND controlled.

And also be loose and relaxed, being tight will make you miss easy shots.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Played a guy with a dink 2nd.
I launched all my BH ROS long.
He held all serves with a dink 2nd.
Click to expand...

Been there. Made me want to slit my wrists.

I get the "pleasure" of seeing all too many dink 2nds ... and in ladies, really a dink.

I have learned 2 things:
1. I return this high bouncing dink serve as a semi-overhead. No idea how to describe this shot but striking the ball from top down adding a lot of backspin but it's trajectory looks low and flat. it hits deep and I can angle it. Very useful in dubs ... useful enough in singles
2. Once an opponent is used to my fast flat and fast mangled slice serves, they have backed up and I powder puff in a short one. Works maybe 1 or 2 times in a match ... but fun
 
OnTheLine said:
Been there. Made me want to slit my wrists.

I get the "pleasure" of seeing all too many dink 2nds ... and in ladies, really a dink.

I have learned 2 things:
1. I return this high bouncing dink serve as a semi-overhead. No idea how to describe this shot but striking the ball from top down adding a lot of backspin but it's trajectory looks low and flat. it hits deep and I can angle it. Very useful in dubs ... useful enough in singles
2. Once an opponent is used to my fast flat and fast mangled slice serves, they have backed up and I powder puff in a short one. Works maybe 1 or 2 times in a match ... but fun
Click to expand...

high bouncing “dink” serves is not a “dink”.. it’s a sitter and should summarily be crushed.

dinks stay below the height of the net, forcing you to: move forward, hit up AND add pace... which many folks will have issues with (I do too for the first few shots, especially with a very active poacher)

similarly the underhand serve gives similar issues which i’m successfully able to throw in occasionally against low to mid 4.5‘s... especially if you have an effective fast body serve.
 
well okay then, based on your definition of dink ... definitely more challenging and no wouldn't use my "semi-overhead" but I see those a lot as well, would describe them not as a dink but as a low skidding serve. Total pain in the ...
At my level I focus on direction and placement not really adding a lot power but adding spin.
 
OnTheLine said:
1. I return this high bouncing dink serve as a semi-overhead. No idea how to describe this shot but striking the ball from top down adding a lot of backspin but it's trajectory looks low and flat. it hits deep and I can angle it.
Click to expand...

Believe they are called Forehand Smashes. They work pretty well when you are defending the baseline against someone who hits a lot of TS and they come in at or a little above head high. :)
 
OnTheLine said:
2. Once an opponent is used to my fast flat and fast mangled slice serves, they have backed up and I powder puff in a short one. Works maybe 1 or 2 times in a match ... but fun
Click to expand...

I want to do exactly this.
I don't want to be accused of being a cheat by some moron, so I have not underhanded serve in a match
So, when he's way back, I sometimes do a very light topkick, but I would love to remove the bounce.

How do you hit your power puff change serve?
 
esgee48 said:
Believe they are called Forehand Smashes. They work pretty well when you are defending the baseline against someone who hits a lot of TS and they come in at or a little above head high. :)
Click to expand...

ok. I love them ... problem is I would like to use them in situations where I should not. But using them against "fluffy" serves has been an enormously good tactic.
But, I love all things overhead ... and a baseline overhead without adding backspin always is the best feeling.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
I want to do exactly this.
I don't want to be accused of being a cheat by some moron, so I have not underhanded serve in a match
So, when he's way back, I sometimes do a very light topkick, but I would love to remove the bounce.

How do you hit your power puff change serve?
Click to expand...

Backspin. It is almost a chip serve I guess ... It is not the least bit disguised but I start with the same service motion as my normal serves but then drop my racquet head and come in more like a forehand motion and cut down on the ball. It has little pace. It only works when an opponent has backed up behind or preferably well behind the baseline. It works in 3.5 ladies and have realized it works in 7.0 mixed against the guy. But again, once maybe twice in a match.
 
nytennisaddict said:
high bouncing “dink” serves is not a “dink”.. it’s a sitter and should summarily be crushed.

dinks stay below the height of the net, forcing you to: move forward, hit up AND add pace... which many folks will have issues with (I do too for the first few shots, especially with a very active poacher)

similarly the underhand serve gives similar issues which i’m successfully able to throw in occasionally against low to mid 4.5‘s... especially if you have an effective fast body serve.
Click to expand...

Its quite hard to attack this ball hard aswell (if it bounces close to the net), its quite an annoying serve, you cant go for too much or you hit too deep and u also have to add alot of spin, if hit well it can be somewhat agressive but with a lower net clearance which also puts u at risk of hitting too low and into the net, of course you can also try a drop shot from time to time, they wont expect it.

But other than that its best to just ppace it well and far away from them and then try to finish the ball they get back at the net.

One problem with this shot is also that you rarely practice it, only in some rare few matches where someone does it, so you dont rly have alot of mileage on these shots.
 
FiReFTW said:
Its quite hard to attack this ball hard aswell (if it bounces close to the net), its quite an annoying serve, you cant go for too much or you hit too deep and u also have to add alot of spin, if hit well it can be somewhat agressive but with a lower net clearance which also puts u at risk of hitting too low and into the net, of course you can also try a drop shot from time to time, they wont expect it.

But other than that its best to just ppace it well and far away from them and then try to finish the ball they get back at the net.

One problem with this shot is also that you rarely practice it, only in some rare few matches where someone does it, so you dont rly have alot of mileage on these shots.
Click to expand...

Another benefit of the "useless" drop feed is that it allows you to practice against this type of dink serve [not 100% accurate but in the ballpark].
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Another benefit of the "useless" drop feed is that it allows you to practice against this type of dink serve [not 100% accurate but in the ballpark].
Click to expand...

Yeah i think drop feeds are underrated.

They are not 100% a representation but they are quite close to certain shots like this where you can feed low bounce balls.
And also good practice for no pace balls u get sometimes with more floaty slices where you have to create all the pace, usualy ppl struggle with these no pace shots.
 
FiReFTW said:
Yeah i think drop feeds are underrated.

They are not 100% a representation but they are quite close to certain shots like this where you can feed low bounce balls.
And also good practice for no pace balls u get sometimes with more floaty slices where you have to create all the pace, usualy ppl struggle with these no pace shots.
Click to expand...

drop feeds are like doing scales on the piano.. if you can’t do the scales, no way you’re gonna play rachmaninoff.
 
nytennisaddict said:
drop feeds are like doing scales on the piano.. if you can’t do the scales, no way you’re gonna play rachmaninoff.
Click to expand...

What's the difficulty with drop feeds? You just drop the ball and hit it, ideally with a lot of pace to near the baseline.

Practicing moving your feet on slow or soft balls is important though. You have a ton of options if you're in position. If you find yourself overhitting, then just shorten the backswing. It allows you to really hold your shot too.
 
Here's an alternate perspective:

So a normal serve would have you back at the baseline or a little further and you would return with a more concise version of you swing. This is our most practiced type of return and what we typically automate into doing.

Our infamous rainbow, "dink" serve is short and either kinda high or mid height. The difference now is that you have a bigger swing but more importantly, LESS SPACE because you are now closer than your typically return. Tied with the fact that you have time for a bigger swing you can see why that exacerbates the problem.

Whenever you have a problem of short balls, people tend to understand it better in this point of view:

When you are from the back you have 78ft of distance to hit the ball into the court. The closer you move into the court, the more space you lose to hit the ball. If you are at the service line you lose 18 ft of distance. That's huge- you simply cannot hit your regular shot. The easy solution is instead of imagining hitting a POWERFUL ball, imagine yourself hitting a powerful SHORT ball. Everything is relative. You're hitting the ball short, but because your closer into the court, it will land deep but inside the court.

A good way to practice is just hitting a ball short when you are in the baseline and rallying. Do not change the depth of the ball with power, but instead of how you arc the ball + topspin. You need a lower trajectory and a moderate amount of topspin. Use your knowledge of topspin and positioning to fill the rest and I think you got your problem solved.

Typically, if you are able to move closer into the court, the goal is to punish the player enough to get an even shorter ball. If they are able to return it deep, and mis-position you, then they hit a good shot or you didn't punish them enough.
 
SupremeV said:
Here's an alternate perspective:

So a normal serve would have you back at the baseline or a little further and you would return with a more concise version of you swing. This is our most practiced type of return and what we typically automate into doing.

Our infamous rainbow, "dink" serve is short and either kinda high or mid height. The difference now is that you have a bigger swing but more importantly, LESS SPACE because you are now closer than your typically return. Tied with the fact that you have time for a bigger swing you can see why that exacerbates the problem.

Whenever you have a problem of short balls, people tend to understand it better in this point of view:

When you are from the back you have 78ft of distance to hit the ball into the court. The closer you move into the court, the more space you lose to hit the ball. If you are at the service line you lose 18 ft of distance. That's huge- you simply cannot hit your regular shot. The easy solution is instead of imagining hitting a POWERFUL ball, imagine yourself hitting a powerful SHORT ball. Everything is relative. You're hitting the ball short, but because your closer into the court, it will land deep but inside the court.

A good way to practice is just hitting a ball short when you are in the baseline and rallying. Do not change the depth of the ball with power, but instead of how you arc the ball + topspin. You need a lower trajectory and a moderate amount of topspin. Use your knowledge of topspin and positioning to fill the rest and I think you got your problem solved.

Typically, if you are able to move closer into the court, the goal is to punish the player enough to get an even shorter ball. If they are able to return it deep, and mis-position you, then they hit a good shot or you didn't punish them enough.
Click to expand...

This is all common sense stuff that we cover when dealing with pushers, slow balls and short balls in general.
 
movdqa said:
What's the difficulty with drop feeds? You just drop the ball and hit it, ideally with a lot of pace to near the baseline.

Practicing moving your feet on slow or soft balls is important though. You have a ton of options if you're in position. If you find yourself overhitting, then just shorten the backswing. It allows you to really hold your shot too.
Click to expand...
how do you do drop feeds?
 
movdqa said:
This is all common sense stuff that we cover when dealing with pushers, slow balls and short balls in general.
Click to expand...
can't be that common,... given the number of pusher threads generated weekly.
 
movdqa said:
Click to expand...
my idea of drop feeds:
solo
# but it can be done much more intensely; i find targeting even on an "easy" drill like this... difficult (ie. i cover a 2x2ft area with cones, and listen for impact - to avoid looking up at contact...
 
We used to just call those drills. Though the person feeding was usually on the other side of the court.

I usually don't have trouble finding someone to hit with as I know a lot of retired folks.

Some of these folks will give me a lot of the "crap" shots that so many here complain about.
 
movdqa said:
We used to just call those drills. Though the person feeding was usually on the other side of the court.

I usually don't have trouble finding someone to hit with as I know a lot of retired folks.

Some of these folks will give me a lot of the "crap" shots that so many here complain about.
Click to expand...
tomato tomatoe
 
Not serving, but I hit with a former college player today. He played 4.5 at his peak, and is now rusty, but his strokes are there,
I had no problem with his pace and I was dictating many points.
Was a fun bashing session. Felt great and a real confidence booster.

However, before he got there, some kid was on the court, so I hit with him while I waited.
I had more trouble against this kid's 3.0 strokes than against the predictable 4.0-4.5 strokes.
Funny how that works.

#winningUgly.
 
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TimeToPlaySets said:
Not serving, but I hit with a former college player today. He played 4.5 at his peak, and is now rusty, but his strokes are there,
I had no problem with his pace and I was dictating many points.
Was a fun bashing session. Felt great and a real confidence booster.

However, before he got there, some kid was on the court, so I hit with him while I waited.
I had more trouble against this kid's 3.0 strokes than against the predictable 4.0-4.5 strokes.
Funny how that works.

#winningUgly.
Click to expand...

Maybe the 4.5er was hitting to you to be nice.

If you get someone completely inconsistent and going for every shot, then he's going to make a putaway now and then.
 
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