For once, I agree with John McEnroe

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
It's a great solution suggested by mac. Let's make it one tour, woman and men play together.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
And again because Serena said something stupid all women are going to be put down. No women can't compete with men in sports and 99% don't want to, so please can this all just stop.

I don't know any young woman with a Serena tatoo on her arse, she's not the patron saint of feminists everywhere and I don't know anyone that named their daughter Serena.
 

Bhagi Katbamna

Hall of Fame
And again because Serena said something stupid all women are going to be put down. No women can't compete with men in sports and 99% don't want to, so please can this all just stop.

I don't know any young woman with a Serena tatoo on her arse, she's not the patron saint of feminists everywhere and I don't know anyone that named their daughter Serena.
The problem women are going to have is not that they are going to be thrust into the men's tour. They problem they are going to have is that men who self-identify as women are going to want to get in on the WTA. It has already happened in high school track where a biologic male transgender has won state titles by beating girls.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
The problem women are going to have is not that they are going to be thrust into the men's tour. They problem they are going to have is that men who self-identify as women are going to want to get in on the WTA. It has already happened in high school track where a biologic male transgender has won state titles by beating girls.
That's already happened at the Olympics.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671937/Transgender-British-athletes-born-men-set-make-Olympic-history-competing-games-women.html
There really wasn't much of a ruckus. Once they start taking female hormones and as long as they keep taking them, they lose the strength and all that goes with it.
 
The problem women are going to have is not that they are going to be thrust into the men's tour. They problem they are going to have is that men who self-identify as women are going to want to get in on the WTA. It has already happened in high school track where a biologic male transgender has won state titles by beating girls.
People have been saying this ever since Renee Richards tried to enter the 1976 US Open. 42 years and still there is no procession of men identifying as trans-women and going on to dominate the women's tour. Plus, the tour isn't going to take self-identification as sufficient for entry into the women's event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards
 
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Bike Man

New User
Love Johnny Mac! A good couple forehands from Millman (a journeyman) and Serena is clinging to the line's women she threatened to shove a ball down (her throat). That's funny stuff. Serena is the best "woman" player. "Woman". We're talking apples and oranges; JMac is spot on.
 
Plenty of people argue that greatest and best aren't the same thing. For example, no doubt there are advocates of Laver, or Rosewall, or Gonzales, or Tilden, or Budge, or even Ellsworth Vines or Lew Hoad as the greatest of all time who are perfectly happy to agree that in the science-fiction scenario in which they are transported to 2018 and play Djokovic or Nadal or to 2006 and play Federer, they will lose. They just deny that that is relevant to their case for being greatest of all time. If that's the case, then someone can argue that Serena is the greatest player of all time - men or women - without arguing that she's able to beat Federer or Djokovic or Nadal or the science-fiction Laver or Rosewall or Gonzales or Tilden or Budge or even Ellsworth Vines or Lew Hoad.

Personally, I'm still voting for Martina Navratilova and possibly Chris Evert as greater than either Serena Williams or Steffi Graf.
 
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Ann

Hall of Fame
Plenty of people argue that greatest and best aren't the same thing. For example, no doubt there are advocates of Laver, or Rosewall, or Gonzales, or Tilden, or Budge, or even Ellsworth Vines or Lew Hoad as the greatest of all time who are perfectly happy to agree that in the science-fiction scenario in which they are transported to 2018 and play Djokovic or Nadal or to 2006 and play Federer, they will lose. They just deny that that is relevant to their case for being greatest of all time. If that's the case, then someone can argue that Serena is the greatest player of all time - men or women - without arguing that she's able to beat Federer or Djokovic or Nadal or the science-fiction Laver or Rosewall or Gonzales or Tilden or Budge or even Ellsworth Vines or Lew Hoad.

Personally, I'm still voting for Martina Navratilova and possibly Chris Evert as greater than either Serena Williams or Steffi Graf.
There's no question that Serena has been more dominant during her era than any other player in history but I'd love to see Serena try to handle Evert's drop-shot.
 
Serena hasn’t played against a decent field since the early 2000s. Even now, a mother, slow, FAT, out of shape, she still reached a slam final.

Shes got nothing on Martina, Evert, Graf. THey would run her ragged. Shes an all time great, but with a resume inflated career
 
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Ann

Hall of Fame
In tennis?
It has to be specifically tennis? Why? The same point I made holds, if they have to continue taking estrogen (which they do to be able to compete as women) they're not going to have the strength and speed they did as men. They're not going to have the impact that people think they will.
 

CYGS

Legend
It has to be specifically tennis? Why? The same point I made holds, if they have to continue taking estrogen (which they do to be able to compete as women) they're not going to have the strength and speed they did as men. They're not going to have the impact that people think they will.
I was replying another poster's post.
 
There's no question that Serena has been more dominant during her era than any other player in history but I'd love to see Serena try to handle Evert's drop-shot.
I think that is a question. Just a few stats here:

Career titles: Navratilova - 167; Evert - 157; Graf - 107; Williams - 72.
Weeks as #1: Graf - 377; Navratilova - 332; Williams - 319; Evert - 260.
Grand Slam finals: Evert - 34; Navratilova - 32; Graf - 31; Williams - 31.
Career winning percentage: Evert - 90.46; Graf - 88.69; Navratilova - 87.77; Williams - 85.49.

None of these things mean that Serena is definitely not more dominant than the others, just that it is open to debate. To my mind, the key stat is Slam finals, because Evert and Navratilova took a lot of Slam titles off each other and so brought both their titles tally down. And they both skipped quite a few Australian Opens early on because it wasn't that important at the time. Graf in particular didn't have her main rival for much of the later part of her career after the Seles stabbing, so it was easier for her to convert Slam finals into Slam titles than it was for Navratilova or Evert. The same is true to some extent of Williams with Henin, but Henin's retirement was entirely voluntary, unlike Seles's absence.

I do actually agree with you that goat debates are unresolvable and so best not engaged in. But these are my thoughts on the topic for what little they are worth.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
I think that is a question. Just a few stats here:

Career titles: Navratilova - 167; Evert - 157; Graf - 107; Williams - 72.
Weeks as #1: Graf - 377; Navratilova - 332; Williams - 319; Evert - 260.
Grand Slam finals: Evert - 34; Navratilova - 32; Graf - 31; Williams - 31.
Career winning percentage: Evert - 90.46; Graf - 88.69; Navratilova - 87.77; Williams - 85.49.

None of these things mean that Serena is definitely not more dominant than the others, just that it is open to debate. To my mind, the key stat is Slam finals, because Evert and Navratilova took a lot of Slam titles off each other and so brought both their titles tally down. And they both skipped quite a few Australian Opens early on because it wasn't that important at the time. Graf in particular didn't have her main rival for much of the later part of her career after the Seles stabbing, so it was easier for her to convert Slam finals into Slam titles than it was for Navratilova or Evert. The same is true to some extent of Williams with Henin, but Henin's retirement was entirely voluntary, unlike Seles's absence.

I do actually agree with you that goat debates are unresolvable and so best not engaged in. But these are my thoughts on the topic for what little they are worth.
I don't call GOATs but I do miss so much of the woman's game from the days of Evert, Nvaratilova, Graf and a few others (not Goolagong though she bored the snot out of me)
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
I don't know why you responded to me but I was clearly not talking to you when I said "it's not happening yet".
Good Lord Man, You asked me a question in post #18 - "in tennis?" and I responded to THAT and then in post#22 you took my response and said you weren't talking to me. Look at the thread. I only respond to you when you directly quote me.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
Men are too funny. Personally I would love to see more open leagues for men and women to play at level, just to watch how many men refuse to play for fear of losing to women. At the pro level it could sort itself out and guys can grunt and scratch themselves while proclaiming how amazing evolution has been to them. I mean, except all the ones that lose.




Probably posting from the court between sets.
 

CYGS

Legend
Good Lord Man, You asked me a question in post #18 - "in tennis?" and I responded to THAT and then in post#22 you took my response and said you weren't talking to me. Look at the thread. I only respond to you when you directly quote me.
Because that's what I meant when I told the other poster it's not happening yet (in tennis). Do you mind not responding to posts not meant for you to respond to?

And wrong - you quoted me first and I was the one responding after you quoted me and misunderstood what I meant.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
Because that's what I meant when I told the other poster it's not happening yet (in tennis). Do you mind not responding to posts not meant for you to respond to?
I didn't. You don't know what post #18 and post #22 mean do you?

Post #18 - You Posted to Me:
Ann said:
I must assume you have me on ignore.
It already happened at the 2016 Olympics.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ke-Olympic-history-competing-games-women.html
In tennis?

Post #21 - I responded
CYGS said:
In tennis?
It has to be specifically tennis? Why? The same point I made holds, if they have to continue taking estrogen (which they do to be able to compete as women) they're not going to have the strength and speed they did as men. They're not going to have the impact that people think they will.

Post #22 - You replied
Ann said:
It has to be specifically tennis? Why? The same point I made holds, if they have to continue taking estrogen (which they do to be able to compete as women) they're not going to have the strength and speed they did as men. They're not going to have the impact that people think they will.
I was replying another poster's post.

Please look above, I don't know why you're not following this. I responded to only when you QUOTED me in your post.
 

CYGS

Legend
I didn't. You don't know what post #18 and post #22 mean do you?

Post #18 - You Posted to Me:
Ann said:
I must assume you have me on ignore.
It already happened at the 2016 Olympics.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ke-Olympic-history-competing-games-women.html
In tennis?

Post #21 - I responded
CYGS said:
In tennis?
It has to be specifically tennis? Why? The same point I made holds, if they have to continue taking estrogen (which they do to be able to compete as women) they're not going to have the strength and speed they did as men. They're not going to have the impact that people think they will.

Post #22 - You replied
Ann said:
It has to be specifically tennis? Why? The same point I made holds, if they have to continue taking estrogen (which they do to be able to compete as women) they're not going to have the strength and speed they did as men. They're not going to have the impact that people think they will.
I was replying another poster's post.

Please look above, I don't know why you're not following this. I responded to only when you QUOTED me in your post.
You're crazy. Tell me why you wrote post #18 first.
 
And you were obviously fine with me responding until I shut your "in tennis?" down. Dude, this is a message board not a private chat room, if you can't handle someone having a good response to your silly comment maybe you should take up knitting and get a cat.
Everyone should get a cat. Annoying though they are, their purring is also therapeutic.
 

CYGS

Legend
And you were obviously fine with me responding until I shut your "in tennis?" down. Dude, this is a message board not a private chat room, if you can't handle someone having a good response to your silly comment maybe you should take up knitting and get a cat.
Unbelievable
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
Everyone should get a cat. Annoying though they are, their purring is also therapeutic.
Anyway back to what we were talking about. Those numbers were shocking. See I feel like Serena has been so totally dominant for decades now but maybe it's just all the hype that surrounds her that makes it appear that way.
 

-NN-

G.O.A.T.
We should combine the tours for one year just to see how things shake out. I think Osaka would be world #1 but the rest of the WTA tour will be ranked below 1000.
 
D

Deleted member 762049

Guest
Not only referred to as overall GOAT but greatest athlete of all time during the US Open...lol
 
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