Forehand advice needed
- Thread starter sgrv
- Start date
coupergear
Professional
Disagree with you here. donnybrook has it right by how most use it imo....racket head lags the hitting hand until contact when racket head whips through. And if we disagree, this is what imo op needs to work
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Just get a really heavy racket, loose up the wrist during forward swing and try to whip the ball as fast as you can. When you are pulling the racket and accelerates forward toward the ball, you should find the racket resistance more if you accelerate faster. Again remember to loose up the wrist. That's the motion OP needs for the forehand.
coupergear
Professional
Wait 10 years until they open their own academies and they will be spouting it with the best of us.
Sent from my BLU STUDIO 5.5 C using Tapatalk
coupergear
Professional
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
Do you mean people here are giving advice without knowing much about tennis technique or do you deny tennis technique altogether? Nadal and Federer have perfect strokes and they have learnt them not born with them. So what's wrong with focusing on technique to develop good strokes? That's how I improve every day.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Racquet lag is a hugely overrated part of the forehand on these boards.
Yes, it's essential if you want a ATP style forehand, but it's not a make or break component of the stroke itself. Trunk, core, and shoulder rotation are the most important aspects of the forehand, and OP is hardly doing any of these things.
Trying to incorporate racquet lag on a forehand that is fundamentally lacking is like putting spoiler on a Toyota Corolla and trying to pass it off as a sports car.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Except it really isn't. If you look closely, many of his backhands save for a few genuinely fluid ones are armed despite the apparent turn in his body. You can tell because his backhand forward swing seems to be consistently ahead of his apparent uncoiling, and, if not, turning in perfect sync with his core. His backhand is merely better fundamentally than his FH, but that doesn't mean it is fine (if we are comparing it to ideal technique).
My understanding of both FHs and BHs is that the majority of the power generated on these strokes are mostly from the violent uncoiling of the body (legs, hips / torso, shoulders), with only a minority (by this I do not mean minimal--just less than 50%) of the power being generated by an active arm. If the racquet is consistently leading or is moving exactly in sync with his hips / shoulders with no lag whatsoever, he's either muscling his arms forward first, causing his hips / shoulders to follow suit, or I am terribly mistaken and he is actually using his core as he should but has got some funky version of fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Ah, the cleavage forehand. It's as if there's a coach somewhere constantly telling the player to get his / her elbows to touch.
I agree that the 5.0+ in the video may be too much for OP to practice, because playig with someone who is too good (and isn't a coach) ironically ruins the chance to develop correct technique because the learner will more often than not be learning to react to the ball coming at them and working with the incoming pace than being more proactive with the ball and learning to generate their own power. Such players will meet a pusher and wonder why none of their groundstrokes are passing the net, or why they are always framing the ball, or why they are hitting it far too wide or not wide enough, then come back here complaining about pushers not playing real tennis.
It's a beautiful cycle
It's OP back again, interesting to see the discussion. My #1 goal is to develop good form. IMO that would happen in stages. Could you please break it down into 2 categories.
1. Simple (foundational techniques) for improvement. Provide 1-2 suggestions here
2. Advanced techniques - likewise 1-2 suggestions here
Note that I am aware of the stroke fundamentals. Just trying to carve a path from [a] my current form (huge area of improvement) to really good form in [c] sequence of 2 stages. Thanks!
1. Simple (foundational techniques) for improvement. Provide 1-2 suggestions here
2. Advanced techniques - likewise 1-2 suggestions here
Note that I am aware of the stroke fundamentals. Just trying to carve a path from [a] my current form (huge area of improvement) to really good form in [c] sequence of 2 stages. Thanks!
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
ROFL "cleavage forehand". I'm totally stealing that!Ah, the cleavage forehand. It's as if there's a coach somewhere constantly telling the player to get his / her elbows to touch.
I agree that the 5.0+ in the video may be too much for OP to practice, because playig with someone who is too good (and isn't a coach) ironically ruins the chance to develop correct technique because the learner will more often than not be learning to react to the ball coming at them and working with the incoming pace than being more proactive with the ball and learning to generate their own power. Such players will meet a pusher and wonder why none of their groundstrokes are passing the net, or why they are always framing the ball, or why they are hitting it far too wide or not wide enough, then come back here complaining about pushers not playing real tennis.
It's a beautiful cycle
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
You are right that most use the term lag to describe the racquet drop. That doesn't mean it is the correct or best use of the term. In any event, I think it is a misuse the term because the lag (the delay in time between the initiation of the forward swing and ball contact caused by the kinetic chain), is a very important aspect of modern forehand technique. The racquet drop is the final element of the lag in the chain of events beginning with hip rotation and ending with contact.
It's funny that the term lag is used differently in golf and tennis. In tennis it does seem to be commonly used as you are using it. In golf it is used the describe the angle between the forearm and shaft. Holding lag is a core golf concept. It's why the pros can hit the ball so far with an apparently effortless swing.
Donnybrook, I appreciate your feedback thus far. I am trying to be a student of the game here with a very open mind. Please suggest specifically how i get the fundamentals right based on where I am? Should I focus on core/most important things first before the advanced stuff? Do provide the specifics.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
You can lead a horse to water . . .
Good idea. You need to go out and practice and focus on one or two things. You have received a lot of criticism here, but I think your FH is pretty good. As you note, what you lack is the ability to really thump the ball.
For point 1, the simple fix, I would say you need to loosen up your arm a lot and get the butt of the racquet facing the ball when you start the forward swing. Then make sure you hit the ball with your chest facing the net.
For point 2, the advanced, you need to get your hips rotating. They literally do not move now. As a result, your feet do not move either. If you watch any top pro, when they hit with an open stance, their front foot generally comes off the ground through or after impact. With a neutral or closed stance, generally the back foot comes around. I'm not sure in your case if you are putting too much weight on your front foot, which blocks your hip rotation, or if you lock your hips and that keeps your feet grounded.
Last edited:
Wait, since when is turning your shoulders not a fundamental part of the stroke? This makes no sense at all. It's like you're saying, don't worry about swinging low to high, practice the fundamentals and that will happen naturally!!
coupergear
Professional
I've heard this several times now on this thread., that OP needs to start with the fundamentals before worrying about anything else, like lag or coil/uncoil...
I disagree. Folks he has the fundamentals. He needs refinement and thinking about higher level technique to move from an armed late forehand to high level modern forehand.
OP--i would focus on videos that drill on lag and coil/uncoil. I never liked the pull the buttcap type ones, but search through and try to find something that resonates with you. Look for videos that teach to loosen the grip (unlock) and using a more fluid swing, leading with the hand and snapping racket head through at contact. I would practice using soft feeds or against the wall or machine where you're not under pressure. Agree with others that you will ingrain suboptimal form in survival mode vs better players. Video as much as you can and analyze vs highlevel strokes.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Well that's just BS. You're taking some personal anecdote and acting like it's law, and repeating it in this thread. Here's another one for you. Our teams coach always focused on feeling the "coiling" sensation, and the players on that team were better than the VAST majority of people on this board ever have/will be. Not to mention the coach is much more successful.
coupergear
Professional
You can't let go of this idea of fundamentals please tell me what fundamentals he's lacking
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Yeah and it's obviously the D1 coach that is confused...not some dude on TT. Makes sense. If turning your shoulders isn't a fundamental part of a forehand what IS? Holding the racquet? Hitting the ball?
coupergear
Professional
Refinement means going beyond the fundamentals. If you are including higher-level technique like lag and coil/uncoil as fundamental then sure he needs to learn his fundamentals! But I believe most understand fundamentals to be much more basic elements of tennis. What does ready position look like. What side of the body is a forehand hit. How should I grip the racket. What is a low to high swing path. What is topspin. What is slice? What is a backswing. What is follow through. He understands all these elements and is using them... he has the fundamentals. Now it's a matter of refinement meaning going beyond the fundamentals.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Tennisanity
Legend
He's already told you multiple times. You have to hit the FH correctly. Simple.
Tennisanity
Legend
Ummm, I won't respond to you anymore because you're being a jerk now. Boohoo.
So far all I've gotten from him is that high level coaches everywhere are confused, except him of course. And that shoulder turn is not a fundamental of the forehand. What IS a fundamental part of the forehand?? We don't know. Apparently it involves holding the racquet and hitting the ball though.
Tennisanity
Legend
No, the fundamental is you have to hit the FH correctly. The rest is too complicated and you have to read a 200 pg book from the 70s to get the real truth.
I really, really disagree with you comments about lag or core rotation being stressed by coaches.
Vic Braden is a pretty famous coach and he taught using legs and core rotation in the 1970s. He was a former pro player. He actually built a device that would hold a tennis racket and strap to a players thighs. He coached a junior team and had them hit balls using leg lift and core rotation with this device - no hands on the racket.
Paul Annacone stresses core rotation to drive the arms during commentary of ATP and WTA matches.
The "serve doctor" coach at IMG academy has a video stressing core rotation and uses "cylinder" drills on FH and serve for that matter.
Rick Macci has a video talking about the "flip" in the FH transition from backswing to forward motion. The "flip" can be viewed as creating lag. Rick Macci also has talked about how Venus Williams FH goes off because she gets her arm out of sync with her body.
The coach that runs the Lock and Roll Tennis instruction site talks about letting the core rotation lead the arm forward. This is "lag".
These are just a few examples and there are many, many more. It is possible to learn a good FH without coaching these principles but rare.
Tennisanity
Legend
Don't you know? They are all confused coaches.
ETA: These coaches speak gibberish, bordering on Swahili.
Last edited:
coupergear
Professional
Look I get it. I'm a PSIA certified ski instructor. I know all about instructors talking like mad with crazy jargon that is way beyond the beginner student. Hip angles, edge release, quiet upper body, flexion/extension...you name it. It gets ridiculous. You have to know your audience and understand how a student learns.
However this guy is not in that situation, he is not a beginner. He needs to start absorbing higher level concepts and look and work on tutorials explaining these advanced concepts. He has come here specifically asking for input therefore he is seeking written and/or video demonstrations of what he needs to do. He has taken the time to video himself and then posted it to this forum.
Yes there is tons of information out there, it can be information overload. He will need to sift through which tutorials and which terminology clicks with him and make sense with him. That is the beauty of the internet you can pick what works for you and discard what does not. What you will notice if you look at the internet, is that people are basically using different terminology to describe the exact same thing. This is nothing to be afraid of just teachers trying to find ways to get concepts to click with their students.
Maybe he will read your post that says hit the ball out front and things will naturally fall into place and he will have lag and torso rotation. I would be skeptical of that, but I don't discount that as a possibility. I think looking at many different approaches and really understanding what needs to happen will help.
Ok, some of the guys I cited played on the ATP tour, coached ATP players and all have coached high level players but you know better. I think synchronizing core rotation into a FH swing is basic and fundamental stuff. There might be other ways to express it or work it into a beginners game without saying the words "core rotation" or "create lag", but the OP is of a high enough level that he should be able to understand and learn these basic principles.
G A S
Hall of Fame
I agree, the terminology can be a bit overbearing and I am not going to comment on OP ability... There is a ton of different lessons all with particularities and you have to get the advice that works for you. From my personal experience, my game only got better when I started to focus on hitting the ball in front of me and the body rotation is a natural thing that accompanies the flow, it is not something I think about. But well, this is just my anecdote, so I won't try to defend it by myself.
coupergear
Professional
Ok OP problem solved. Watch this clip.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
coupergear, thanks for taking the initiative and posting the video. It is very helpful, much appreciated 
Worth more than a million words..
I will have to un-learn the locked wrist habit acquired over 7+ years and develop a loose wrist. I understand the problem and solution much better now. Key is execution! Thanks again.
Worth more than a million words..I will have to un-learn the locked wrist habit acquired over 7+ years and develop a loose wrist. I understand the problem and solution much better now. Key is execution! Thanks again.
coupergear
Professional
Thanks. I meant to mention...your current contact point with wrist locked is basically straight out to your side...where my racket was pointing at camera in "locked" shadow swing...hence everyone noting it being late/too far back.coupergear, thanks for taking the initiative and posting the video. It is very helpful, much appreciated
I will have to un-learn the locked wrist habit acquired over 7+ years and develop a loose wrist. I understand the problem and solution much better now. Key is execution! Thanks again.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
5263
G.O.A.T.
good stuff!
5263
G.O.A.T.
I can't speak for how others use it, but when I use racket lag as a term is along the lines of "lag to drag" on the Fh, although I teach the same lag to drag on the serve....just in a different plane. Imo, my use is more akin to the golf use. On the serve, it's how you get the L position Chas speaks of..
5263
G.O.A.T.
Not that I totally agree with him, but JY really stresses the shoulders as a main issues from what I've read from him. Imo he over does it a bit, but good shoulder turn is important and is taught if it doesn't happen naturally. Most athletes that throw well will use the shoulders pretty well too without much coaching on that.
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
Well done mate. Can I add one thing? At the beginning of the forward swing the wrist shouldn't be in an extended(bent back) position (that's WTA forehand ) but rather in a neutral position and it should go backwards/extend because of the sudden forward swing of the arm ( ideally created by torso rotation ).
coupergear
Professional
Disagree mate. The wta vs atp is about back swing. The women do a big windup with the racket back high behind them. Men much more compact unit turn and backswing all out on the front plane of body. Look at nadal he cocks his wrist into an L even during unit turn.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes he does but my point is just at the moment of forward swing initiation the wrist becomes neutral whereas in the WTA forehand it stays in the laidback, extended position and that's why you don't see that lag/flip of ATP forehand. I'll post videos later when I have time.
coupergear
Professional
Lol. Figured you wouldnt like it, but what do you know, even you are engaging in tech weenie talk..wrist positioning etc..so maybe it does matter after all! Haha. Yes i was exaggerating a stroke where the wrist is completely locked his isn't actually that bad and he doesn't cross up his arms up like I do in the "locked" demo. he tends to lift the racket high over his head so he can get topspin with a mostly locked wrist.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
coupergear
Professional
Fair enough . I didn't find any huge issues with the op's backswing or forward initiation main issue is locked wrist just prior, at moment of contact...and follow through. My own foreward initiation may be more wta-like in the shadow swings. Definitely post some vids.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
OP back again - I spent an hour on the court to work on loose wrist. Incredibly difficult to execute after so many years of semi-locked wrist. Hard to get the swing, timing etc which is reasonable given first attempt.
I think using the wrist effectively is a very advanced technique. Based on where I am (arming the ball), there are probably lower hanging fruits. IMO I will get more immediate mileage if I can get hips to rotate and shoulders to open during the forward swing. I tried those too but it's not very obvious. On some forehands, I could engage them and the stokes felt so good. It was easier to engage on cross court than DTL. However, I can't repeat them at will yet. It was more fluke than rule.
Any tips on how I can engage shoulders and hips? Should I focus on hips first before shoulders? What would be a logical sequence for improving the stroke?
I think using the wrist effectively is a very advanced technique. Based on where I am (arming the ball), there are probably lower hanging fruits. IMO I will get more immediate mileage if I can get hips to rotate and shoulders to open during the forward swing. I tried those too but it's not very obvious. On some forehands, I could engage them and the stokes felt so good. It was easier to engage on cross court than DTL. However, I can't repeat them at will yet. It was more fluke than rule.
Any tips on how I can engage shoulders and hips? Should I focus on hips first before shoulders? What would be a logical sequence for improving the stroke?
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
typical of most rec players, you're looking for the magic pill/quick fix. developing proper strokes takes time and lots of practice. there are no short cuts.
coupergear
Professional
1 hour? Hate to break it to you boss, but it's more like another 7 years! Seriously, I have a theory that tennis players tend to reach their prime later than in past eras (of teen wonderkids) is that the modern strokes take that long to master--to have full control of them.
So now we get into another familiar topic...do you just resign youself to your level to avoid the painful disruption, or do you work new things and suffer a performance drop that may last a while? Its not fun to lose to people you normally beat! Or the the fear that you'll f up what you already have and never breakthrough to a higher level or even get back to your current one.
Did you do the calisthenics i demoed, pivoting at hips and twisting? Thats a simple progression for getting hips and shoulders turning, it naturally gets you creating the forehand kinetic chain. Its also just a good warmup.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
coupergear
Professional
With a semi-locked wrist if you turn your hips and shoulders much prior to contact the ball is naturally going to want to go crosscourt...without the wrist lag your contact point is still out to your side, youve just rotated yourehips and shoulders more so now your aiming crosscourt. Point is you need both.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
