Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
I advise that, in the load-up position at the back of the backswing, the hand not extend past about 5 O'Clock, and the racquet be about parallel to the baseline facing down. That sets up the flip nicely.
Forehand advice needed
- Thread starter sgrv
- Start date
I advise that, in the load-up position at the back of the backswing, the hand not extend past about 5 O'Clock, and the racquet be about parallel to the baseline facing down. That sets up the flip nicely.
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
I have just watched a few of Federer's slow motion forehand videos again and the flip seems to be caused by a combination of sudden wrist extension and forearm supination rather than just wrist extension. Looks like I missed this before ( I think it's the same as turning the door knob anology ). But the key I think is what you say about the hand position not going past 5 o'clock. When you get that right, the rest is much easier.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
The "flip" is more arm rotation (a combination of forearm supination/pronation and internal/external shoulder rotation). The wrist is in a position of flexion throughout. Federer uses more flexion than others because of his Eastern grip.
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
Are you sure about the wrist being in flexion because it doesn't look like that? The wrist looks to be extended throughout until after the racquet head catches up with the whipping movement which is well after the ball contact.
Federer's second shot in the video shows more clearly the position of the wrist.
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PMChambers
Hall of Fame
Your
I wouldn't worry about the whole ATP modern style, it's designed to beat other high ranked quality ATP modern style players and requires a lot of practice and skill. Adding "pat the dog" lagging wrist stuff is needed to get to another level, same as jumping forehand or backhand, dunk smash, etc can add power can increase spin but increases errors as well. Watching videos of Federer style is bit pointless unless your as good as Federer *in his prime*, it's the final product of continual improvement and doesn't show you how he got there. Anyway FH seem disjointed, rushed, trying to develop too much power and spin through wrist, lacks timing as a result, the usual things players go through. Basics, grip, take back and finish.
Yes doing OK. He's feeding you well for rally practice but for technical development far to fast. He's basically got you short on time. I think he's trying to relax you as he's talking to you, but you seem like your trying too hard, rushed for time, hitting at a level a little to high for game play, trying to force play, etc. I guess you might be better off practicing slow mid court shots and get the mechanics better, get faith and then practise movement. Not many coaches teach movement, so good luck there. Obviously it was hard work as your breath heavy so wouldn't worry about it, maybe forget what's wrong, don't worry about outcome, go back to basics, reduce the amount of effort you put into the shot, enjoy it and it'll start coming together.
I wouldn't worry about the whole ATP modern style, it's designed to beat other high ranked quality ATP modern style players and requires a lot of practice and skill. Adding "pat the dog" lagging wrist stuff is needed to get to another level, same as jumping forehand or backhand, dunk smash, etc can add power can increase spin but increases errors as well. Watching videos of Federer style is bit pointless unless your as good as Federer *in his prime*, it's the final product of continual improvement and doesn't show you how he got there. Anyway FH seem disjointed, rushed, trying to develop too much power and spin through wrist, lacks timing as a result, the usual things players go through. Basics, grip, take back and finish.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Sorry, I meant extension not flexion.
donnybrook is the one you have to listen to.
You're hitting LATE
I know it's not sexy, not a pro player ajustement. But you have to learn fundamental things about footwork, placement, take back timing, racquet face control, contact point.
If you get all the basics set up correctly you'll be able to add open stances, wrist lag, powerful uncoiling, pronation, slap and other mumbo jumbo tricks.
Your backhand is correct, not perfect but correct. It's not about form, the form of your backhand can be improved. But the fundamental are here, now compare it to your forehand and tell me all there's missing is a wrist thing or a twist thing?...obviously you don't know what you're doing on the forehand side unless you arm the ball as ****
If this coach you're playing with is asking for money, it is ridiculous. He has to rebuild your footwork + take back timing and arm extension. If he doesn't he's just milking you.
ps coupergear has a point but there are way more urgent errors to cure in his backswing/swing. Like how can you incorporate wrist lag when you're late from the startup of your footwork. And with zero arm extension? That's the point of coaching it's not just about WHAT has to be corrected but WHEN it has to be.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Deleted.
mbm0912
Hall of Fame
Don't be scared.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
I've given the OP my best advice in several posts. Since then, this thread has been butchered and the OP has been led astray. I don't think there's much hope of salvaging the situation at this point.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Haha! Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
But seriously, I hope you and the OP find all of the success in the World. Perhaps the OP can post a video of his progress when he has had sufficient time to incorporate your advice.
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Not trying to be mean or anything...Hate to break this to you but your forehand is nothing like any present or past pro.I came across Sampras FH video and felt my FH is closer to his than Nadal/Federer. If so, I am happyNotice the less use of wrist and body rotation.
NuBas
Legend
Can you tell me where you live, that court is beautiful.
G A S
Hall of Fame
Totally agree, hitting out at front is where the focus should be, it makes the game way easier.Look at your contact point. you're hitting at the side of your body. Your contact Point has to be out another two feet in front of you. also you're hitting partner is hitting way too hard to you. He has to slow the pace down. Both of you should slow the pace down. You hid out in front more by preparing earlier and starting your forward swing as the ball is bouncing on your side of the Court. If you wait for the ball to bounce you're going to be rushed and not have enough time and the result is what you're doing now.
This is why it's completely silly to talk about torso rotation and extending your shoulder and turning your shoulder and all of that stuff. how could you possibly get your torso and shoulder into the shot when you're hitting at the side of your body? You can't.
Practice hitting it out front and like magic your torso and shoulder will do what they're supposed to do.
coupergear
Professional
Haha. So now you're trying to validate that your stroke is ok. I'm here to tell you, your stoke is fine. But you were asking about improving it. I agree and see some similarities..definitely closer to Sampras than modern guys. Its like my serve, I'm oddly consoled by it looking like Connors'. Haha.I came across Sampras FH video and felt my FH is closer to his than Nadal/Federer. If so, I am happy
Sampras hits an older school (sort of transitional to modern fh) relatively flat, relatively locked wrist forehand, not nearly as much torso rotation or lag as a modern fh. He starts to uncoil but then shoulders stop and stay closed at contact and he just goes up with his FT...arming it. High over his head like yours. Contact point more to side than modern. This is when he is older looks like beyond his tour years, maybe he had bit more fluidity when younger. Yet how many slams did he win?
Goes to show that in your case working with what you have and grooving it might be wiser than breaking it all down. Still he is doing far more with the coil-uncoil than you are, has more lag and contact point more is out front...the same tips still apply if you want to be more like him.
Just as historical note...FH was not his iconic stroke...no one goes to Sampras videos to learn groundstrokes...lets remember he played in the days of hyperfast courts, played an legendary serve and volley game...a style that no longer works at the pro level due to the devastating modern groundies and slower courts.
So yeah. It works, and at the sub5 level might be a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Not exactly! Sampras forehand is very similar to Lendl's forehand (perhaps inspired by it), with the flying elbow. The purpose of the flying elbow is to create a huge amount of internal/external shoulder rotation, more than anyone I've seen past or present. That is how they generated racquet head speed in lieu of more upper body rotation and forearm supination/pronation seen in today's players. Also, they both used 14+ oz racquets which don't require as much racquet head speed to generate power as lighter, more modern racquets.
Both are among the greatest forehands of all time. Both are hit with heavy topspin. Their method of gaining racquet head speed with internal/external shoulder rotation is why the both had such devastating running forehands. It's not as easy to generate racquet head speed on the run with upper body rotation.
coupergear
Professional
Sorry the flying elbow does nothing for the stroke. Look at a modern player nobody needs to bring their elbow up like that, that is purely extraneous motion. Go back and look at Lendl and these other players hitting it's almost like the ball is in slow motion compared to today's game. Yes they were good yes they were consistent yes they hit hard yes they were champions but the strokes have evolved. lendl was a step in that progression but imo he was not near what a modern forehand looks like nor was Pete.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
I disagree. You didn't read, or didn't understand my post. I clearly explained the distinction between Sampras and Lendl's forehands from the more modern forehands. I am very familiar with how the forehand has evolved. Sampras and Lendl used the flying elbow in the backswing to create huge internal shoulder rotation, and lowered the elbow in the forward swing to create external shoulder rotation, moreso than most modern players who use more upper body rotation and forearm supination/pronation. I've seen them all play, many times, live.
Is this what you mean by slow motion:
How about this:
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Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
lol @ Sampras being slo-mo. That Becker-Sampras match is almost like a videogame, everything happens so fast.
I think both of you - donnybrook and Limpin Hitter - make valid points though you seem to be in vehement disagreement. I checked out a video of the OP from 2011 where he seemed to be handling slower, relaxed feeds and even there it just seems as if his hitting arm stays too stiff through contact and he is also not completing the follow through. It's almost as if he is taking the racquet across too abruptly, without powering it through the ball first. donnybrook is right that there are lots of rec players who hit like that, particularly those who pick up the game late (I don't know if the OP is one of them). Nothing wrong with it per se if you just want to have some fun on the tennis court. But it's not enough if you really want to take it to the next level. And by next level, I simply mean having a reliable forehand that you feel you can command to do whatever you like. Of course that is contingent on the power of the incoming ball but in general hitting the forehand should become second nature where all the adjustments happen automatically without conscious thought.
To that end, I think a released arm through contact and hitting out in front both go together. If you are holding the racquet too tight and trying too hard to keep it stable, you won't feel confident about hitting the ball well out in front. To do so, it is necessary to think of the forehand as something like an underarm throw. I see the OP is Indian and he - you - have probably bowled spin with an underarm throw? If so, the topspin forehand is not very different from that, except that you don't try to twirl the fingers around the ball as you would in cricket. Instead, you just release the racquet from takeback to contact such that the face closes (only slightly) at contact and the racquet pulls across the body after contact. You don't WANT to be pulling it across at or before contact because that will again make you tighten up. If you remember, in underarm throwing in cricket, the faster and looser you swing the throwing arm, the better control you get over depth (i.e. you are more likely to bowl too full and without pace if your release was tentative). The same principle works to an extent in the forehand. You want to swing loose and free and as fast as possible BUT the racquet itself stays stable all the way through. Yes, it is not easy and requires lots of practice before you stabilise it. It is up to you whether you would like to invest that time in developing a forehand that lets you feel you are on top of things all the time as long as you get close enough to the ball (which is about movement anyway). But no, Sampras does not hit the forehand like you. He too hits it out in front, maybe not as much as Federer but still out in front and he too swings loose and free. Again, maybe not as much as Fed but that is also because he has a more compact stroke. But just check out the return of serve at 0:39 in the below vid, he just stepped in and swung freely at it. Look at how far across the racquet has gone in his follow through. There are differences between his shot and Fed's for sure but one thing does not change: that the tennis forehand is struck out in front by sort of releasing the racquet towards the ball (without actually letting it drop out of your hand).
I think both of you - donnybrook and Limpin Hitter - make valid points though you seem to be in vehement disagreement. I checked out a video of the OP from 2011 where he seemed to be handling slower, relaxed feeds and even there it just seems as if his hitting arm stays too stiff through contact and he is also not completing the follow through. It's almost as if he is taking the racquet across too abruptly, without powering it through the ball first. donnybrook is right that there are lots of rec players who hit like that, particularly those who pick up the game late (I don't know if the OP is one of them). Nothing wrong with it per se if you just want to have some fun on the tennis court. But it's not enough if you really want to take it to the next level. And by next level, I simply mean having a reliable forehand that you feel you can command to do whatever you like. Of course that is contingent on the power of the incoming ball but in general hitting the forehand should become second nature where all the adjustments happen automatically without conscious thought.
To that end, I think a released arm through contact and hitting out in front both go together. If you are holding the racquet too tight and trying too hard to keep it stable, you won't feel confident about hitting the ball well out in front. To do so, it is necessary to think of the forehand as something like an underarm throw. I see the OP is Indian and he - you - have probably bowled spin with an underarm throw? If so, the topspin forehand is not very different from that, except that you don't try to twirl the fingers around the ball as you would in cricket. Instead, you just release the racquet from takeback to contact such that the face closes (only slightly) at contact and the racquet pulls across the body after contact. You don't WANT to be pulling it across at or before contact because that will again make you tighten up. If you remember, in underarm throwing in cricket, the faster and looser you swing the throwing arm, the better control you get over depth (i.e. you are more likely to bowl too full and without pace if your release was tentative). The same principle works to an extent in the forehand. You want to swing loose and free and as fast as possible BUT the racquet itself stays stable all the way through. Yes, it is not easy and requires lots of practice before you stabilise it. It is up to you whether you would like to invest that time in developing a forehand that lets you feel you are on top of things all the time as long as you get close enough to the ball (which is about movement anyway). But no, Sampras does not hit the forehand like you. He too hits it out in front, maybe not as much as Federer but still out in front and he too swings loose and free. Again, maybe not as much as Fed but that is also because he has a more compact stroke. But just check out the return of serve at 0:39 in the below vid, he just stepped in and swung freely at it. Look at how far across the racquet has gone in his follow through. There are differences between his shot and Fed's for sure but one thing does not change: that the tennis forehand is struck out in front by sort of releasing the racquet towards the ball (without actually letting it drop out of your hand).
coupergear
Professional
Sorry went off half cocked you did note lack of torso rotation and no lag/snap. You weren't suggesting the flying elbow today. However imo flying elbow not really a pertinent part of the mechanics. Check this out.
What has the flying elbow done to get him any extra juice from this position? In fact after the flying elbow he straightens it further back behind him. Its more of what we now call wta looking stroke, big looped backswing with left arm pointing forward toward net, not across his body. That he's leading his loop with a pronounced elbow upward is not critical.
As for the videos...they hardly even rally....indoor courts are so fast they're happy to block balls back. Or Gerulaitus trying to chip and charge! Thats 3 decades old stuff.
They had some of the greatest forehands of THEIR time.
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What has the flying elbow done to get him any extra juice from this position? In fact after the flying elbow he straightens it further back behind him. Its more of what we now call wta looking stroke, big looped backswing with left arm pointing forward toward net, not across his body. That he's leading his loop with a pronounced elbow upward is not critical.
As for the videos...they hardly even rally....indoor courts are so fast they're happy to block balls back. Or Gerulaitus trying to chip and charge! Thats 3 decades old stuff.
They had some of the greatest forehands of THEIR time.
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coupergear
Professional
Pete also has cleavage...again noting distant similarities to OP. At the finish he is not opening up...so his left arm kind of floats up and starts to cross up.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Sorry went off half cocked you did note lack of torso rotation and no lag/snap. You weren't suggesting the flying elbow today. However imo flying elbow not really a pertinent part of the mechanics. Check this out.
What has the flying elbow done to get him any extra juice from this position? In fact after the flying elbow he straightens it further back behind him. Its more of what we now call wta looking stroke, big looped backswing with left arm pointing forward toward net, not across his body. That he's leading his loop with a pronounced elbow upward is not critical.
As for the videos...they hardly even rally....indoor courts are so fast they're happy to block balls back. Or Gerulaitus trying to chip and charge! Thats 3 decades old stuff.
They had some of the greatest forehands of THEIR time.
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If you understand the role of Sampras' and Lendl's internal/external shoulder rotation in generating racquet head speed, then you would know that this picture captures Sampras swing in a neutral position between the two.
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