Forehand help / analysis please!

time_fly

Hall of Fame
I've been having consistency issues with my forehand, especially with respect to depth control. I took a lesson focusing on the forehand today, and took a couple videos in the last 10 minutes. I think I need to extend both arms more, but what else should I be doing better? By the way it was really hot and humid in there and I had already been drilling for almost an hour, so my footwork and swing speed are a little sluggish but I think the general swing mechanics are still clear.

Forehand practice / rear view (you can really see the depth control problems in the first half of this one before I settle into a better rhythm at the end).

Forehand practice / side view

Thanks in advance for any tips!
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
It looks as if many of the feeds are high. ?

A side view where the racket face can be seen might help. Top spin drives usually have a closed racket face, about 5-10 degrees closed, just before impact. See also racket face for ATP players for high balls. Another way to handle high balls is with side spin.
See

Look late in this article and see Djokovic & Federer with closed racket faces.

I have posted many times on uppermost body turn and separation. Please search those terms with member Chas Tennis in a forum search.

Some issues to look at -
1) You have no separation of the line between your 2 shoulders and the line between your 2 hips, you turn all together. That is why you have to catch yourself at the end and it probably does not feel right. Please search a few of my posted descriptions with videos of forehand separation. If the shoulders and hips turn together, as yours do, I refer to that as a "barn door forehand".

Separation involves trunk twisting and that may be too stressful for some players. Don't add trunk twisting unless it is safe and effective for you. Back issues don't do.

Djokovic is very flexible and his extreme full motion is not a good example to copy. But he displays separation well and his use the uppermost body turn (trunk twisting is one sub-motion for that turn) is very good for displaying what is going on.

The basic forehand in the ATP and WTA is uppermost body turn to start and some shoulder joint motion before impact. See it and its details in high speed videos.

2) You seem to use some internal shoulder rotation (ISR) in your forehand for forward motion. ? I don't see that in the ATP. I noticed that on one forehand, look for others.

3) If hitting long, you must get a camera on your racket face as in the tennisspeed article. Your side view would be good except that the motion blur blurs the racket just before impact. Looks as if on one high ball your racket was neutral, not closed. ? Outdoor sunlight has much more light than an indoor court (~80X). Your camera's automatic exposure control will select a faster shutter speed and you will have much less motion blur.

But your important issue to work on first is trunk twisting and whether that is safe for you. It may also be that uppermost body turn and adding some shoulder joint before impact is more consistent. ? If you can't see the issues that I'm talking about in the Djokovic forehand below, ask questions.

Copy the video links below and insert your Youtube forehand and compare your forehand. The instructions for comparing videos were in post #16 of the thread below.


On the forehand the OP is not using her off arm as usually the ATP players do. (She also did not use her off arm in her serve.)

The off arm is up, held straight and accelerated starting a little before the forward swing starts. This builds up speed and momentum in the off arm. When it is then pulled in it adds speed to the uppermost body turn.

This can be demonstrated and felt. No high speeds. Take the position of the arm up and out as for the player turned back - like the Djokovic thumbnail in the video below. Accelerate the upper arm to speed first, then uppermost body forward starts, and pull the arm in as for a forehand ATP player. See Djokovic video below. If your abdominal muscles are not locked you can feel some acceleration added to the turn of the uppermost body. You could hold a 1lb dumbbell or can of soup to help feel the momentum transfer.

First, compare off arm use for forehand.

The same momentum transfer principle applies to bringing the off arm down & in for the serve.
 
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ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Looks good. Need to get the hitting shoulder further forward. Just moving your contact point further in front of you should do it.
 

Dragy

Legend
Looks solid and fluid, I’d suggest trying one thing:
- step back a tad and play the ball as it gets lower into better strikezone. It will give you time, as you now look slightly rushed in your back-and-forth motion, and to no good. You don’t take the ball on the rise, so why make it harder for yourself? Prep a meter further back, hit it at chest/belly level. You’ll feel like you have all the time in the world, and control will improve (y)
 

Pumpkin

Professional
I read thru Chas Tennis university dissertation and I agree with much of what he says. You have the same problem as me but mine is worse. There's not quite enough trunk rotation and it's just a subtle difference in your case, before coming through with the left hip. Just a slight lack of separation. You dont engage your non hitting arm enough in terms of extension and it may be linked to the lack of separation as I also lack in that department but in this case, not as bad as you. Having said all that, it's a pretty decent looking forehand and you move well for a big guy. Just a subtle change for huge improvement I see. Don't go nuts and start rotating like a nutcase. It's just a little bit further.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
You are a leftie and should find some ATP leftie forehand high speed videos. Pick straight elbow or bent elbow forehand, closest to your technique.

If you are hitting with a Semi-Western grip and get a high ball, it is simple to adjust how closed the racket face is. Find what the pros are doing for high balls in a slow motion video.

-----------------------------------------------------------

To single frame in Youtube use the period & comma keys.

This video describes the more linear and more circular forehands ("modern forehand"). A player transition was recommended to the circular technique because he had injured his left knee and his linear stroke technique was aggravating his knee. You can see that with the foot planted, the left knee could be stressed by his body turning with the linear technique. This also relates to separation, where the uppermost body can turn more or less than the body below the pelvis. The player in the video does not do much separation as seen in current ATP videos. Too complicated for me to understand or describe, but some of his linear stroke might be like yours in my opinion? Also, look at ATP forehands as the video was made in 2007.

The comments by Dan Brown points out differences between the more linear - 'step forward shift your weight' technique vs the circular technique, where the player may not move forward, but stay in place. His video displays the linear and the more modern circular forehand techniques in an especially clear way, see the overlay of the linear and circular forehands.

See if you are the linear or the circular forehand technique?
 
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Humbi_HTX

Professional
@time_fly if you slow down the video, you can see that you start the swing with your arm and after smacking the ball you move forward as a result of the inertia of the swing.

My advice would be to slow down your swing and work on consistent contact in front and allowing the racquet to accelerate thru the swing without having to muscle it or smack the ball.
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
See if you are the linear or the circular forehand technique?

I normally hit a decent percentage of my forehands from the open or semi-open position. In this particular workout I was complaining about depth control, late contact, and too much “windshield wiper” on my swing. So he had me closing off my stance and using a more linear approach to the ball to helpfully get more extension and power. We both observed that out of the open stance I wasn’t consistently getting enough loading and drive out of my left leg, resulting in some short or loopy balls so he wanted to get me hitting more linear on balls where I have the option of using either approach.

Since I am only 3.5, a large percentage of my matches are against players who chip, block, and almost never hit anything hard and in that scenario I am the player who is always putting the pace on the ball. I think he is right that in these matches I should use a more linear approach because it takes less effort to drive balls with no incoming pace versus hitting an open stance forehand.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I normally hit a decent percentage of my forehands from the open or semi-open position. In this particular workout I was complaining about depth control, late contact, and too much “windshield wiper” on my swing. So he had me closing off my stance and using a more linear approach to the ball to helpfully get more extension and power. We both observed that out of the open stance I wasn’t consistently getting enough loading and drive out of my left leg, resulting in some short or loopy balls so he wanted to get me hitting more linear on balls where I have the option of using either approach.

Since I am only 3.5, a large percentage of my matches are against players who chip, block, and almost never hit anything hard and in that scenario I am the player who is always putting the pace on the ball. I think he is right that in these matches I should use a more linear approach because it takes less effort to drive balls with no incoming pace versus hitting an open stance forehand.

I just observe what the current ATP players are doing and point out what I think are differences between their strokes and the poster's strokes. That is a reference for any player. I don't have time to study the statistics of what strokes and stances are being used by the ATP, so I form an opinion after watching a number of current players and their strokes. If you look at 10 players and 7 or 8 show a certain sub-motion and you see that often otherwise, that seems typical enough for me. I suggest to posters that more observations should be done before deciding on changes. The strokes I mean are the ones that the players choose to make when they are not pressured and want to hit pace.

I studied the one hand backhand and the current ATP players that use it. The videos showed that specific sub-motions were being used by most of the prominent 1HBH players. I did not recognize those sub-motions until I saw them in videos. That is a reference for the 1HBH in 2022.

The Dan Brown video seemed to be spot on for the linear and circular forehands. Before I saw that, there was advice being mixed together without ever identifying the technique that the advice applied to, linear or circular.

The high forehand means that you were pressured and were not able to hit your best shot. You were hitting pace and were inconsistent.

I once asked an instructor about handling high balls as I was trying to put top spin on all my forehands. It did not work for high balls. He said that 'you don't need top spin for high balls, use more side spin', I got an improvement doing that for high balls. He said to return deep with side spin but not try much on high balls. I have seen pros using side spin on high balls but I don't know percentages. But high balls are pressure and mostly I want to avoid all pressure and just compare players hitting what they can off of easy set up shots. That brings out their best technique vs an ATP player's best technique doing the same.

If you are hitting high or low and don't know why, the first thing to do is get a video of the angle on the racket face just before impact. The grip or its adjustment could be the cause or other. Consider pretend observations, every time the ball went high and out you observed that your racket face was neutral or open. You would have something. [You know that for normal top spin drives the racket face is closed by 5-10 degrees from the Tennisspeed article. You see his camera angle & racket head displays.] It is likely that in a few minutes that you might get an answer. Does your instructor use high speed video much?

There are no 3.5 techniques to study, no links. What are your models?
 
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Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Looks solid and fluid, I’d suggest trying one thing:
- step back a tad and play the ball as it gets lower into better strikezone. It will give you time, as you now look slightly rushed in your back-and-forth motion, and to no good. You don’t take the ball on the rise, so why make it harder for yourself? Prep a meter further back, hit it at chest/belly level. You’ll feel like you have all the time in the world, and control will improve (y)
Right on! Dragy, did you say that you are 5.5? How come you are not coaching (except us, here lol)?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
You have to decide between bent or straight elbow forehand. Did I see bend and then straight for impact on a shot? Did I see some internal shoulder rotation ISR on a shot for forward motion?

Here is Djokovic with a bent elbow. At 2:03. 2:16 and 3:56 are high forehands.

Look at all forehands for how closed the racket face is just before impact. See Tennisspeed article on Djokovic, link in earlier post.

Watch the line between the two shoulders and the line between the two hips. Notice also when the upper arm is moved forward by the shoulder joint and identify the shoulder joint motion. The upper arm will, for a time, be aligned with the line between the two shoulders and then move forward when the shoulder joint moves it. Stop on impacts and look at the line between the 2 shoulders, the line between the two hips, the line of the upper arm. Track those lines back and forth. A video taken from above would be ideal for viewing the forward motion of these lines and the separation angle (between hips & shoulders lines).

I believe that the forehand and the one hand backhand are 2 phase strokes where the uppermost body turns forward first, carrying the shoulder mass and upper arm with it, and then the shoulder joint is added before impact. Look for those features and timing in the Djokovic video.

The uppermost body turn (with shoulder joint & upper arm always included) is rotated by 1) foot motions, 2) knee motion and 3) trunk twisting (separation = trunk twisting). Those all show in videos.

Are you using separation?

You are husky and that probably affects your flexibility and forehand technique. ? Djokovic jumps off the ground to hit top spin on high balls. Is that feasible for you?

____________________________________________________________________________________________
I just saw WTA Paolini hit a top spin forehand on a very high ball. She lost on July 23, 2022 in Semi's, Palermo. Not in slow motion. You might want to search for techniques being used for forehand high balls, variety out there?

Paolini. See if you can find her hitting a high ball. 19 sec looks like one.

Here is what Paolini has to say about her improvement-

Paolini attributes her improvements to video analysis of her groundstrokes, which has led to a more effective serve and forehand on hard courts.

"I try to open a little bit less and lower the forehand [follow-through]. I was [finishing too low]. The serve, I have to improve my serve percentage and also the spin. I cannot play flat because I'm 160 centimeters. I have to be more precise, yeah, to improve the percentage. That's what we are working on."
I can't understand her forehand advice, it probably means to hit flatter. ?

4. She quoted Jenson Brooksby in her press .....

______________________________________________________________

A simple issue is the racket face tilt.

Word descriptions miss other things that can be seen in videos.
 
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pencilcheck

Hall of Fame
I've been having consistency issues with my forehand, especially with respect to depth control. I took a lesson focusing on the forehand today, and took a couple videos in the last 10 minutes. I think I need to extend both arms more, but what else should I be doing better? By the way it was really hot and humid in there and I had already been drilling for almost an hour, so my footwork and swing speed are a little sluggish but I think the general swing mechanics are still clear.

Forehand practice / rear view (you can really see the depth control problems in the first half of this one before I settle into a better rhythm at the end).

Forehand practice / side view

Thanks in advance for any tips!
recommend looking up wawrinka, your body type is similar to his, might be good to see what he is doing to help your game.
 

Dragy

Legend
Well, didn't you say "I am not going to go down from 5.5 to 5.0"? :)
Yeah definitely gonna keep that level, expect to get there by 55 first and never drop back!
I actually think 20 more years of tennis training is good enough for some ATP points, given my wisdom and TT crowd support
 

Pumpkin

Professional
@Chas Tennis everthing you say is probably right, but it's so hard to get your body to comply. I've been working hard on my forehand for 6 years and I just can't get it. The question is, how can you get your body to do what you know it should do?
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
@Chas Tennis everthing you say is probably right, but it's so hard to get your body to comply. I've been working hard on my forehand for 6 years and I just can't get it. The question is, how can you get your body to do what you know it should do?
  1. Shadow swings?
  2. Anything to get you relaxed, such as exhaling as you start your swing.
  3. Poly strings or gut/poly hybrid.
  4. A racquet about 310g static weight and head light.
  5. Video yourself.
  6. Lessons.
  7. Long term planning, i.e don't push, not even in matches.
 

Pumpkin

Professional
  1. Shadow swings?
  2. Anything to get you relaxed, such as exhaling as you start your swing.
  3. Poly strings or gut/poly hybrid.
  4. A racquet about 310g static weight and head light.
  5. Video yourself.
  6. Lessons.
  7. Long term planning, i.e don't push, not even in matches.
Hi Fintft. Thanks. I do shadow swings ( if you mean swings without the ball) and I do it well. I've videod myself and I know what I'm doing wrong. Even pain in my lower left back shows me that I am lifting up too soon. But I just can't get it right. I'll keep trying.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Hi Fintft. Thanks. I do shadow swings ( if you mean swings without the ball) and I do it well. I've videod myself and I know what I'm doing wrong. Even pain in my lower left back shows me that I am lifting up too soon. But I just can't get it right. I'll keep trying.
My first coach told me to imagine that I go thru a couple of balls linned up, before coming over...He understood that I was trying to generate RHS, by comming over the ball too soon.
Is your elbow straight at contact?

Also are you pulling at the racquet handle and throwing it at the ball(with the ATP lag and all)?
 

Pumpkin

Professional
My first coach told me to imagine that I go thru a couple of balls linned up, before coming over...He understood that I was trying to generate RHS, by comming over the ball too soon.
Is your elbow straight at contact?

Also are you pulling at the racquet handle and throwing it at the ball(with the ATP lag and all)?
Yes funny you mention that. Today I practiced and I did the going through a couple of balls thing . So I thought of that but it didn't work. It was like I was pushing at the ball. I do get good lag. BTW there has been 3 times in my life where I have gotten it so it shows its possible.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Hi Fintft. Thanks. I do shadow swings ( if you mean swings without the ball) and I do it well. I've videod myself and I know what I'm doing wrong. Even pain in my lower left back shows me that I am lifting up too soon. But I just can't get it right. I'll keep trying.

If you have back pain stop experimenting with trunk twisting.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Yes funny you mention that. Today I practiced and I did the going through a couple of balls thing . So I thought of that but it didn't work. It was like I was pushing at the ball. I do get good lag. BTW there has been 3 times in my life where I have gotten it so it shows its possible.

Are you taking high speed videos?
 

Spin Diesel

Hall of Fame
As someone else already said - I think the biggest problem is your preparation is too late. And then you‘re in a hurry and therefor it‘s hard to get consistent timing on your stroke, causing a lack of control.

You should prepare as soon as you see the shot is coming to your forehand (of course same for the BH).
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
As someone else already said - I think the biggest problem is your preparation is too late. And then you‘re in a hurry and therefor it‘s hard to get consistent timing on your stroke, causing a lack of control.

You should prepare as soon as you see the shot is coming to your forehand (of course same for the BH).
@time_fly I've typed at nauseaum here how Bolettieri told me to "start taking the racquet back with two hands, as soon as you decide on which side you are going to hit and that way a semi pivot back( unit turn) will also happen "...
My own coach wants me to be done with my "business" (both prep and movement?!) before the ball crosses the net.

Most people say that you are supposed to have the racquet into your furthest back position by the ball bounce (I yell at one friend who wants to learn, b/c of that, all the time :))
 
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