Forehand. How to smoothly tuck in the left arm on the forward swing.

[Raul_SJ]

Ideally, the left arm should extend parallel to the baseline on the takeback.

The problem for me then becomes how to smoothly retract the left arm on the forward swing. It feels awkward and looks ugly.

If I do it right, I notice more pace as retracting the off arm generates more torso rotation into the shot.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Weighing in on whether the off arm needs to be parallel to baseline requires factoring in Chas's reference to Curious posts on the off arm assist in the FH. If you haven't read his posts on FHs, use the search and check them out. Fantastic at explaining stuff. The short version is Curious described players using the off arm as a rhs assist. From the parallel arm position, the player's off arm rotates with the shoulder turn, and at time of slot firing, player tucks arm to resist rotation. By resisting rotation, more speed is passed on to the arm.

So if that is what happens, you can't do that (or at least not as well) from an off arm position less across.

I tried so hard to see this happening in Fed videos, including the one Chas posted. When Curious tells you something is happening in a stroke, believe it. To this day I think it's me ... I just can't see it. To me, it looks like the shoulders are uncoiling, off arm just traveling relaxed with uncoiling, and then shoulder turn finishes. At the finish, the relaxed off arm comes to it's natural end (no tucking of off arm as a rhs assist).

I'm not clear on what you are not seeing.

I understood Curious to be saying 1) get off arm parallel to baseline to facilitate shoulder turn on the takeback and then 2) tuck in your off arm on the forward swing to produce faster torso rotation. This is similar to an ice skater pulling in her arms to spin around faster.

I tried this a bit when I practiced yesteday. Most times didn't click. But the one time it worked, I hit with a lot more pace. I was very impressed. Very effortless. Even the other players stopped and complemented. The greater torso rotation was providing the power.

But I can't quite figure out the timing and execution of pulling in the off arm and spinning...

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'm not clear on what you are not seeing.

I understood Curious to be saying 1) get off arm parallel to baseline to facilitate shoulder turn on the takeback and then 2) tuck in your off arm on the forward swing. This
is similar to an ice skater pulling in her arms to rotate faster

I tried this a few times when I practiced yesteday. Most times I missed. But the one time it worked, I hit with a lot more pace. I was very impressed. The torso rotation was providing the power

But I can't quite figure out the timing...

"I'm not clear on what you are not seeing."

I could never convince myself there was a tuck assist vs the arm just stopping because shoulder quit turning (from watching video). In the end, it didn't matter because it wasn't something I wanted to add to my FH. My FH already has enough issues.

But if you see it, and feel it ... experiment and decide if it's worth adding it. I decided against flipping and tucking. Instead ... the 2hbh sucked up all my practice time.

 

[onehandbh]

Do it like this:

 

[rchjr2091]

I’ve been frustrated with my forehand... if I watch on video it’s more Del Potro style than Federer. I want it parallel to baseline but I’ve got so many other issues my non dominant hand is the least of my worries.... if my shoulders are correctly being rotated I’ve moved on to other issues and quit worrying about what it looks like .
I’m focused on improving my footwork these days .

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'm not clear on what you are not seeing.

I understood Curious to be saying 1) get off arm parallel to baseline to facilitate shoulder turn on the takeback and then 2) tuck in your off arm on the forward swing to produce faster torso rotation. This is similar to an ice skater pulling in her arms to spin around faster.

I tried this a bit when I practiced yesteday. Most times didn't click. But the one time it worked, I hit with a lot more pace. I was very impressed. Very effortless. Even the other players stopped and complemented. The greater torso rotation was providing the power.

But I can't quite figure out the timing and execution of pulling in the off arm and spinning...

Curiosity FH posts are who I meant. You can search for his excellent posts on FH.

I think he nails it with this one:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lerate-through-the-ball.573939/#post-10698263

 

[Old Skool Graphite]

More misinformation that will end up screwing up your technique

 

[Raul_SJ]

I could never convince myself there was a tuck assist vs the arm just stopping because shoulder quit turning (from watching video). In the end, it didn't matter because it wasn't something I wanted to add to my FH. My FH already has enough issues.

But if you see it, and feel it ... experiment and decide if it's worth adding it. I decided against flipping and tucking. Instead ... the 2hbh sucked up all my practice time.

I can understand if you choose not to incorporate it into your forehand due to personal preference and comfort.

But I don't see how the tuck assist can be disputed. According to Chas and Curiousity's posts, it is based on physics. Tucking in the off arm will achieve greater torso rotation into the shot... But as you say, you don't see it. I clearly see Federer tucking in the off arm and then rotating into contact... I see it but have not fully tested it yet.

Curiosity posts, read next posts.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...on-hitting-arm-movement.560959/#post-10221592

To see this watch high speed videos of strong forehands, and note 1) the acceleration, 2) the arm speed and 3) the pull in of the left arm. Federer video below illustrates off arm motion well.

Demo - Take a can of soup in your left hand. The soup increases the angular momentum from just that of your arm and makes this effect easier to feel at slower rotation speeds. Arm straight and start from position of the hand when first taken off the racket after turning back the upper body. Try also arm farther across the chest for this demo. Accelerate the arm at a moderate acceleration and quickly pull it into your body. Add turning the upper body also. You can feel a boost to your upper body turning speed.

This is the same effect that an ice skater uses to increase spin rate. But for the ice skater both arms and a leg are brought in.

I tried so hard to see this happening in Fed videos, including the one Chas posted. When Curious tells you something is happening in a stroke, believe it. To this day I think it's me ... I just can't see it. To me, it looks like the shoulders are uncoiling, off arm just traveling relaxed with uncoiling, and then shoulder turn finishes. At the finish, the relaxed off arm comes to it's natural end (no tucking of off arm as a rhs assist).

So if you see the assist, the full parallel off arm matters, because that's a longer off arm path (momentum) to the moment of tuck

 

[Curious]

Maybe extending the left arm parallel to the baseline ensures a good torso rotation only and has no other effect on the power generation . So, maybe as long as you hold it parallel to the baseline during the loading phase it doesn't matter how you retract it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I can understand if you choose not to incorporate it into your forehand due to personal preference and comfort.

But I don't see how the tuck assist can be disputed. According to Chas and Curiousity's posts, it is based on physics. Tucking in the off arm will achieve greater torso rotation into the shot... But as you say, you don't see it. I clearly see Federer tucking in the off arm and then rotating into contact... I see it but have not fully tested it yet.

Dispute is too strong ... more just not convinced I see active tucking. I would state it this way. Watch Fed's off arm in the video in this thread. Assume his off arm is very relaxed ... which is what his arm and hand look like to me. Ask yourself "what would be natural motion/path a relaxed non-active-tucking arm would take as the shoulder rotation completed"? I think it would do what it does in that video. The arm is like crash test dummies ... continues after crash.

Regardless, I don't think this is something a rec player should care about. The pros are having to squeeze out the last tiny percent to compete at their level. We all a 100 flaws more important than off arm tucking. I don't have enough years left to work through the flaw list to get to tucking.

IMO ... the vastly more important (to rec players) Curiosity point in his post I linked is his comments about hip action. He believes as I do, the huge power source is torso/shoulder rotation ... and not much with hip rotation. He talks about bent knees, and powering up through hip, as opposed to hip rotation. The way I say it (see it), the hip rotation allows a bigger shoulder turn ... and the longer shoulder rotation is the real key to RHA.

Obviously many very knowledgeable members (I am not including me ... talking about instructors and members like Curiosity) disagree on this topic. I see what a rec player tries to do (or not) with hips as likely having a big impact on repeatable rec strokes. If I went and tried to consciously fire my hips first, I would mess up my strokes even worse than they are now. Scary thought. Yandell talked about a high level player (friend I think) that hosed his strokes with the hip firing thing.

Big rec player stroke impact ... IMO:

- shoulder turn past hip line
- stances
- backswing arm position
- how much lag
- to flip or not
- To hip fire or not

Small impact:
- off arm ... tucking or otherwise.

Off arm becomes important if it's the only way a rec player consistently gets full shoulder turn. I do it because it gets me to the full turn more often than other choices. But the point isn't what my off arm is doing, it's what the torso/shoulders are doing. Graf didn't need the off arm across for her shiulder turn ... and many rec players might do fine without it also. Try pointing at the ball a couple of times and see if that prevents a full shoulder turn. It does not.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Maybe extending the left arm parallel to the baseline ensures a good torso rotation only and has no other effect on the power generation . So, maybe as long as you hold it parallel to the baseline during the loading phase it doesn't matter how you retract it.

LOL ... read what I just typed. We are thinking the same. Ironically ... I think you, me, Raul are similar in needing to understand something before we accept it.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

i personally wouldn't focus on active off-arm-tucking.
i've experimented with it, but i think it makes the stroke feel jerky (when i was trying to, i'd imagine i'm elbowing someone behind me).
i think it's more important to focus on "not sweeping" the off-arm (leaving it out straight), as that feels like it slows down the stroke, but i wouln't "actively-tuck-to-speed-up-the-rotation"
for me, focusing on initiating the swing off the back foot (ground, hips,...) is more important.

to not do the "arm sweep" thing, just catch (the frame) after the follow through over your shoulder,... (it should feel awkward trying to catch the racquet with a straight left arm)

 

[FiReFTW]

The off hand is extremely important

It provides:

1.Good unit turn (More rhs, more pace, more spin)
2.Balance
3.Firm and stable upper body
4.Aids in balance and rotation of the upper body during the swing (But you should not pull it and jerk it on ur own, it should flow naturaly with your upper body

 

[ByeByePoly]

The off hand is extremely important

It provides:

1.Good unit turn (More rhs, more pace, more spin)
2.Balance
3.Firm and stable upper body
4.Aids in balance and rotation of the upper body during the swing (But you should not pull it and jerk it on ur own, it should flow naturaly with your upper body

Just for debate/discussion purpose ... explain why you think the off arm provides the unit turn. For example, I think you could turn just as far with the left arm dangling.

 

[FiReFTW]

Just for debate/discussion purpose ... explain why you think the off arm provides the unit turn. For example, I think you could turn just as far with the left arm dangling.

Well yes, you can turn the same with off hand dangling. But usualy in a match u think about alot of things ans you can easily not umit turn or unit turn well with arm dangling, but with pointing ur arm sideways you cant prevent not having a good unit turn.
Alot of people wont have it tho if their arm is dangling but sure its possible without and some people can constantly do it like that.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well yes, you can turn the same with off hand dangling. But usualy in a match u think about alot of things ans you can easily not umit turn or unit turn well with arm dangling, but with pointing ur arm sideways you cant prevent not having a good unit turn.
Alot of people wont have it tho if their arm is dangling but sure its possible without and some people can constantly do it like that.

I agree with all of that ... now what do we talk about.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Just for debate/discussion purpose ... explain why you think the off arm provides the unit turn. For example, I think you could turn just as far with the left arm dangling.

Except you won't. I have patients that have lost vision on one side. They tell me they can drive because they can just turn their head more to see that side. Problem is, studies show that they don't. They just tend to ignore that side of the world.

There are some things that seem to require a cue to happen. Moving the off hand to to point towards the sideline seems to be necessary to fully turn the shoulders for most people.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

This is not something you need to think about.
Your arm will just go where it goes, naturally.
This is not even a thing anyone has ever thought about.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Except you won't. I have patients that have lost vision on one side. They tell me they can drive because they can just turn their head more to see that side. Problem is, studies show that they don't. They just tend to ignore that side of the world.

There are some things that seem to require a cue to happen. Moving the off hand to to point towards the sideline seems to be necessary to fully turn the shoulders for most people.

My mother lost vision in the left eye a couple of years ago. You are right, they just lose vision width ... and don't seem to turn head any more. I have occasionally tried activities with one eye closed to see what she has to go through. I did not notice any additional turning of head to compensate.

I think the off arm across is the best cue ... it's why I use it. I didn't find it that hard to temporarily drop it when I drilled pointing at the ball. I basically had it down in the first ball machine session.

Off arm parallel with baseline in semi open stance is good unit turn, but in a neutral stance would be no unit turn.

 

[IowaGuy]

with pointing ur arm sideways you cant prevent not having a good unit turn

+1

Agassi is good model for this sideways-arm unit turn, IMHO. He also seems to "tuck" his off-arm during the stroke, although it seems very natural and not necessarily conscious.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

This is not something you need to think about.
Your arm will just go where it goes, naturally.
This is not even a thing anyone has ever thought about.

well it was a thing i have definitely thought about... i used to do the left-arm-sweeping thing..

 

[ByeByePoly]

+1

Agassi is good model for this sideways-arm unit turn, IMHO. He also seems to "tuck" his off-arm during the stroke, although it seems very natural and not necessarily conscious.

This made me get up and go watch the video on the PC where I can put it on slow motion with Chrome. Also step through frame by frame.

When I watch the video at .25 speed, or frame by frame, this is the sequence I see:

1) rapid shoulder uncoiling slows ... and hand naturally starts moving up toward elbow height
2) shoulder uncoiling pause/stop is reached ... and this sends hand higher than elbow
3) on follow through, shoulder turn starts again to finish the follow through

I still don't see any active tuck. If it happened, I would expect a very obvious "tuck/breaking" prior to the shoulder turn uncoiling end/pause.

Tuck off

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Tuck off

lol

 

[ChaelAZ]

The problem for me then becomes how to smoothly retract the left arm on the forward swing. It feels awkward and looks ugly.

OMG, I have a gay jazz hand! The dang thing jumps up and fricken waves! It is embarrassing really and I have finally started to find ways to improve it. For it it has to do with rotation, using the off-hand for the initial move of rotation for my body. So I essentially pull it across and in to open up my chest more flat to the net and let my racquet arm elbow/arm extend forward. I am just getting it so I watch videos and it drives me NUTS watching it as it is now!

 

[ByeByePoly]

OMG, I have a gay jazz hand! The dang thing jumps up and fricken waves! It is embarrassing really and I have finally started to find ways to improve it. For it it has to do with rotation, using the off-hand for the initial move of rotation for my body. So I essentially pull it across and in to open up my chest more flat to the net and let my racquet arm elbow/arm extend forward. I am just getting it so I watch videos and it drives me NUTS watching it as it is now!

Huh ... you combined the fh with the breaststroke (@Bender,@Shroud,@J011yroger ... that is swimming you sick b@stards)

 

[ByeByePoly]

OMG, I have a gay jazz hand! The dang thing jumps up and fricken waves! It is embarrassing really and I have finally started to find ways to improve it. For it it has to do with rotation, using the off-hand for the initial move of rotation for my body. So I essentially pull it across and in to open up my chest more flat to the net and let my racquet arm elbow/arm extend forward. I am just getting it so I watch videos and it drives me NUTS watching it as it is now!

Could be worse ... your hand could have whipped behind into a Nadal taint tug.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Maybe extending the left arm parallel to the baseline ensures a good torso rotation only and has no other effect on the power generation . So, maybe as long as you hold it parallel to the baseline during the loading phase it doesn't matter how you retract it.

My off arm was not extending at all. Just dangling. I see most 3.5 players do this. I added the off arm extension on the takeback.

But smooth retraction of the off arm on the forward swing is also critical. I notice that smooth retraction greatly affects the torso rotation on the forward swing.

Retract correctly and there is torso rotation and effortless power. If the off arm still sort of sticks out on the forward swing, the torso rotation slows down. So much so that my results are better with my old way ( dangling and no extension on the takeback) vs extending and then not retracting efficiently.

 

[Curious]

If the off arm still sort of sticks out on the forward swing, the torso rotation slows down.

How is that even possible physically?

 

[Curious]

Could it actually be the arm being parallel to the baseline not the forearm which is mostly angled to the back at the fully loaded position? It straightens and retracts from there. If you focus more on this detail, maybe you can avoid the awkward feeling of holding the arm and the forearm together parallel to the baseline.

 

[Bender]

If you look at someone like Rafa the left arm once it’s moving backwards doesn’t seem to have an active role in the shot, whereas someone like Fed appears to be elbowing someone on his left hand side.

Imo so long as the left arm isn’t getting in the way of your upper body rotation it isn’t too much of an issue. The tuck is probably there to stop it flailing around and hitting the racquet as the racquet swings over to your left shoulder. Just let it follow your shoulder...if you try involve your left arm too much there’s that risk that you’d try and initiate with the left elbow than with the core, leading to a rather jerky motion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mad dog1]

How is that even possible physically?

It’s what Will Hamilton of fuzzy yellow balls termed the bear hug forehand.

 

[mad dog1]

Could it actually be the arm being parallel to the baseline not the forearm which is mostly angled to the back at the fully loaded position? It straightens and retracts from there. If you focus more on this detail, maybe you can avoid the awkward feeling of holding the arm and the forearm together parallel to the baseline.

Depends on the individual

 

[Curious]

Depends on the individual

I think it is a phase during the movement but it actually starts with the position shown in the pictures of Federer I posted above.

 

[Fintft]

to not do the "arm sweep" thing, just catch (the frame) after the follow through over your shoulder,... (it should feel awkward trying to catch the racquet with a straight left arm)

I agree also as per my coach.

 

[Chas Tennis]

If your feet are on the ground and your off arm is straight out from the body you can accelerate the off arm backwards. (Probably works with feet off the ground too. ?) The arm stores kinetic energy (KE). The farther out from the upper body rotation axis the micro mass is, the more energy it stores. Energy goes as the square of the radius out. (Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mv^2, where velocity v is proportional to the radius ) The hand is farthest out and a pound mass of hand for a given rotation rate stores 4 times the energy of a pound mass of arm that is only half the radius out compared to the hand.

To see this KE energy placed into the arm watch the off arm accelerate and reach high speed before the racket arm. I'd estimate at one point that the off hand is the fastest moving body part in the video or as fast as any other. It would also be informative to know those speeds but that would require overhead videos. (Frank Salazar has an overhead video made by Fuzzy Yellow Balls.)

Toly processed video of Fuzzy Yellow Balls video. Frank Salazar is the player.

The entire body does not have to speed up, only the upper body, say the shoulder girdle, naturally the trunk has to rotate too above the hips. I would not see that the off arm should be 'relaxed' when accelerating since the elbow stays straight and later when it tucks in, it bends. (The centrifical forces with the upper body rotating tend to keep the arm out not tucked in, so the muscles pulled the arm in.) Maybe the up to speed arm is relaxed for a short time in between, say, after the accelerating phase.

I had looked at a great number of high speed videos and many thousands of forehands on TV but until Curiosity described it had completely missed this off arm biomechanics of the forehand and serve.

Try holding the soup can. After the arm is up to speed see if you can get it to transfer momentum to the upper body when you pull in the soup can. Remember a pound of soup can in the hand has more KE energy per pound than any other pound of the arm.

 

[Digital Atheist]

 

[Raul_SJ]

Could be worse ... your hand could have whipped behind into a Nadal taint tug.

How is the off hand and torso rotation here? Is it getting close to passable? Excuse the lack of knee bend and split step. Contact felt good and I got some moderate topspin.

Need to work on being less jerky and less army. But I think its getting close to being acceptable.

How is that even possible physically?

Sort of like the second forehand. Resulting shot was winner but sort of ugly "Bear hug" look.

 

[ByeByePoly]

How is the off hand and torso rotation here? Is it getting close to passable? Excuse the lack of knee bend and split step. Contact felt good and I got some moderate topspin.

Need to work on being less jerky and less army. But I think its getting close to being acceptable.



Sort of like the second forehand. Resulting shot was winner but sort of ugly "Bear hug" look.

You are tiny little tennis player in this video. If you made a mistake, it would be a small mistake.

 

[TennisCJC]

This is not something you need to think about.
Your arm will just go where it goes, naturally.
This is not even a thing anyone has ever thought about.

well, actually some people have thought about it for decades. tucking the off arm was written about and discussed by tennis coaches and baseball pitching coaches at least back into the 1970's. I think a player doesn't want to make a big deal of it if it isn't an issue. but I am sure some players don't do it naturally and a good coach might point it out and help the player to get a smoother tuck.

 

[meltphace 6]

This is not even a thing anyone has ever thought about.

Wrong. Most beginners don't make good use of their non hitting arm in a natural way. Heck, probably most lower level rec players don't.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/9/93/25._Ротационен_стол.ogv/25._Ротационен_стол.ogv.480p.webm

Two random YT vids:

 

[ByeByePoly]

Wrong. Most beginners don't make good use of their non hitting arm in a natural way. Heck, probably most low level rec players don't.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/9/93/25._Ротационен_стол.ogv/25._Ротационен_стол.ogv.480p.webm

Two random YT vids:

That was great ... hahaha!!! Is it legal to hold one of those weights in your left hand playing tennis? Great ... now you tell me the tennis holy grail after I switched to 2hbh.

 

[meltphace 6]

That was great ... hahaha!!! Is it legal to hold one of those weights in your left hand playing tennis? Great ... now you tell me the tennis holy grail after I switched to 2hbh.

Always at your service!

 

[ByeByePoly]

Always at your service!

I think I saw @Shroud doing this in one of his videos. The thing I like about that outfit is easier access and adjustment to my hamstring sleeves.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Wrong. Most beginners don't make good use of their non hitting arm in a natural way. Heck, probably most lower level rec players don't.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/9/93/25._Ротационен_стол.ogv/25._Ротационен_стол.ogv.480p.webm

Two random YT vids:

I just watched the 4.0 guys. LOL ... a blend of 5.0 and 3.0 shots ... I guess that averages out as 4.0? That's some range.

 

[meltphace 6]

I just watched the 4.0 guys. LOL ... a blend of 5.0 and 3.0 shots ... I guess that averages out as 4.0? That's some range.

Mean!

The weird thing is that I prefer to watch a rec match video taken from a low camera angle over those top view cam pro matches.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Mean!

The weird thing is that I prefer to watch a rec match video taken from a low camera angle over those top view cam pro matches.

Nah ... I wasn't being mean, at least didn't intend to. The 5.0 part of my observation was a compliment.

Big shots ... and big misses ... go big or go home.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Wrong. Most beginners don't make good use of their non hitting arm in a natural way. Heck, probably most lower level rec players don't.

It's not clear how much of the physical laws of ice skater rotation directly translates to tennis movements. Some were also contending a straight-arm forehand generates more leverage because of longer axis of rotation. But we know that many powerful bent forehands exist as well.

Some of the biggest forehands ever recorded were bent. Blake and Kyrgios.

 

[FiReFTW]

It's not clear how much of the physical laws directly translates to tennis. Some were also contending a straight-arm forehand generates more leverage because of longer axis of rotation. But we know that many powerful bent forehands exist as well.

Because people are different, have different fast twitch fibers, explosiveness etc...
And there are not many straight arm fhs on pro level also, you cant draw conclusions like that.
Straight arm does provide a bigger power ceiling all things being equal.

 

[meltphace 6]

Ideally, the left arm should extend parallel to the baseline on the takeback.

It's situational, IMO. Compare forehand cross court outside out vs cross court inside out for instance. Switch between hitting inside out, inside in and outside out (also backhand) and see/feel what happens.