SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
However, a VAST majority of the Big 3 use the platform stance on the serve.
Forehand Loop ATP vs WTA Forehand Questions
- Thread starter topspin_forehand
- Start date
Well 66.6% of them do at least...
I have an ATP forehand because I am not flexible enough to take my racket tip behind my butt. Could it be the same issue with the ATP pros?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I had it at 66.7% but the judges say they will accept either approximation.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
This. Undoubtedly, the major reason for the ATP Fh. Rumors that Novak "Gumby" Djokovic is flexible are complete fabrications.
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10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
No. I think it’s irrelevant if racquet face is parallel to the ground:
And Ash Barty style, for example, is not limited in RHS. Some locked-wrist swings are.
@user92626 there are already too many fh threads so I'll just hijack one randomly... this picture is your question then.
so from padding the dog position, if you add ISR you end up in the Nole position above.... the purpose being that the additional ISR becomes extra run way for the ESR load.... so the sequence is actually ISR-ESR-ISR.
ask away..
user92626
G.O.A.T.
@10sbeast888 I'll come back to your post soon.
@Curious
I ran into this clip. This coach demos the take back to the swing with racket face almost never close super easy. It looks very natural whereas your way looks forced. Yeah?
@Curious
I ran into this clip. This coach demos the take back to the swing with racket face almost never close super easy. It looks very natural whereas your way looks forced. Yeah?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Rec players can’t swing like a pendulum because of tightness and bad timing. So they end up with a shallow drop. That’s where Kimiko’s genius comes into play: drop straight below the ball and swing up and forward.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Apparently it's a common problem. This coach describes it nicely. I got stuck in the pat the dog position and don't have a nice transition.
So, I think I need to introduce one more phase between "pat the dog" and forward swing. That is the ESR like you said.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
the ESR is not something you need to add.
it happens due to inertial.
the core rotation should start right before you reach the dog.... and because the racket is face down to the ground, by the time it touches the dog it should already in the process of the ESR.
it's all just one continuous motion.
if you just let the racket fall to the dog, without thinking about ESR, just pull the handle with the face down, the ESR will naturally happen. the arm must be relaxed like a wet noodle.
then the ESR reaches its extreme, that's when you feel some torque in your arm and shoulder, this snaps back into the ISR to produce racket speed.... the so-called lag n snap, or the so called SSC.
btw these are all common questions I have answered many times for my guys.
the coach in the video did mention 'momentum' and 'gravity'... there is actually no 'pad dog' in the girls motion, which is not necessary
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Look at the clip below. Mute the sound if necessary.
The top guy has a similar swing as the girl, ie he lets the racket head drop (on its weight?) and naturally gets the racket face open, ready for the forward swing.
Then, you get Sinner, who actively flips his racket face? Seems difficult, doesn't it?
Dragy
Legend
You need to get your elbow point down for uncoil. Classic WTA forehand gets elbow down at the end of the takeback. Sinner/Djokovic takeback ends with elbow back, racquet tip to the side. Then with drop comes flip, driven by elbow turning down. There’s nothing difficult, just timing/sequence.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Wow, the elbow thing, that's exactly what I was asking for earlier.
If you have a back swing like Djokovic's, Alcaraz's, how do you you flip the racket face completely the other way with ease for the forward swing? What concept or method do you use?
eg. do you intentionally open the racket face? Or, do supination? Or trace the racket edge?
Thanks man. Im gonna try your concept. Pretty neat. You should be a coach for real.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
it's not a big deal.. Sinner just has more ISR before the ESR.
need to see your grip and swing... fh is too complicated.. unlike the volley.
Dragy
Legend
I actually at some point did focus on ulnar side of the wrist — make it aim at the ball, this will put everything properly aligned:
It’s just an option, but I find it good as it allows to relax the grip and let the racquet lag (when you focus on racquet edge or index knuckle zone, that might trigger undesired tension and limit the free lag phase).
user92626
G.O.A.T.
So, one option is we focus on the ulnar side of our palm, like skipping stone on water, to get into proper forward swing alignment?I actually at some point did focus on ulnar side of the wrist — make it aim at the ball, this will put everything properly aligned:
It’s just an option, but I find it good as it allows to relax the grip and let the racquet lag (when you focus on racquet edge or index knuckle zone, that might trigger undesired tension and limit the free lag phase).
That makes sense.
I have trouble turning the palm up manually consciously. At high speed I would trip & frame shots.
Let me try your elbow drop & ulnar concepts. Thx
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Yes..going from alot of isr to sufficient esr is where I disconnect.
I do semi western grip.
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
Don’t forget to pay attention to your Extensor Pollicis Longus tendon.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Picture of it.?
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
user92626
G.O.A.T.
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
Look in a mirror.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
And see what?
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
Somebody with false fh hope.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
hope is nice.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Dragy, 10sbeast, and AllNo. I think it’s irrelevant if racquet face is parallel to the ground:
And Ash Barty style, for example, is not limited in RHS. Some locked-wrist swings are.
From this specific position, we drop our elbow to create ESR / racket face open ?
Why does that feel so abruptly as opposed to Del Potro style? Can Potro style be used with SemiW & less loopy?
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
these slow-mo's can be so misleading. I don't won't to go to the details of ESR... just saw this drill, the key is to keep a closed face and this drill teaches it perfectly as your dragging the racket on the ground you can't keep the face open... maybe use an old racket.
delpo or who ever,, they are all hitting the same shot.. just look different.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
@user92626 tagged you in Chas thread.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I agree and you need a racquet that swings easily.This drill is probably what I need. I think way too much about backswing. I messed up in today's game against my friend
Did you also notice the part where you are supposed to be ready as the ball crosees the net?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I do not have a timing problem. I prep and am ready for the ball just fine. I know this because the ball is always nicely in my strike zone.
Where I screw up is the mumbo jumbo racket raise, takeback, back swing and ultimately the forward swing. It all feels like a mess. LOL
----
She's teaching from the unit turn position, you want to swing quickly to the contact point.
But it's really two different motions, even opposite.
In her rally with a person, she times (slow down if necessary) her back swing with the incoming ball then speed up the forward swing. Time mark 4:00
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Dragy
Legend
Maybe because you try to deliver the blow fast like in table-tennis? As the ball approaches, you should begin opening towards it, simultaneously aligning/dropping the hand. Not yet “swing to hit the ball”. Swing can be considered as one single action. But it’s not just ball strike from takeback. It’s a swing that ends with ball contact and extension/follow-through.
The phase I’m talking about, the very beginning of the gif: the arm is still back, the elbow pivoted down, the uncoil already begun.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
After the drop,ie the hand goesdown as low as needed, we intentionally turn our hand or what?Maybe because you try to deliver the blow fast like in table-tennis? As the ball approaches, you should begin opening towards it, simultaneously aligning/dropping the hand. Not yet “swing to hit the ball”. Swing can be considered as one single action. But it’s not just ball strike from takeback. It’s a swing that ends with ball contact and extension/follow-through.
The phase I’m talking about, the very beginning of the gif: the arm is still back, the elbow pivoted down, the uncoil already begun.
Dragy
Legend
Everything gets smooth and intuitive since you figured out the way to do it right and practiced the s..t out of it, doesn’t it?
My suggestions on here are not some way of engineering the stroke, but suggested focuses to solve the issue, to help brain and body figure out and remember good swing. All these things may be a one-time application which does or doesn’t push the cart in the right direction.
Most of the time, if one struggles to transition from Djokovic/Sinner takeback into good forward swing configuration, this is tightness and/or rushing into impact (maybe due to being late). The initial goal is to feel the smooth transition and experience successful clean strokes, even if only moderately fast. Eliminate the effort to hit the ball before uncoiling and accelerating. Only hit from elbow-down, buttcap forward, easy-and-smooth phase.
That’s kind of my philosophy.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
This drill is probably what I need. I think way too much about backswing. I messed up in today's game against my friend
correct - in your mind it should just be "dog", then pull to "impact".... there is no conscious backswing.
but make sure the face is closed, use my '8 inches' idea.. explained in the Chas thread.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
@Dragy @10sbeast888 @Chas Tennis
I tweaked my swing path a bit, more importantly the concept in my mind, and rediscovered the consistency and power feelings.
Who knew there's so many little things that can go wrong, especially when you're obsessed and go off the rail from something else!!
With this adjusted swing path & concept the flipping transition between back swing and forward swing has become manageable if not to say easy.
I tweaked my swing path a bit, more importantly the concept in my mind, and rediscovered the consistency and power feelings.
Who knew there's so many little things that can go wrong, especially when you're obsessed and go off the rail from something else!!
With this adjusted swing path & concept the flipping transition between back swing and forward swing has become manageable if not to say easy.
Dragy
Legend
Nice to hear!
Dragy
Legend
No, the primary sources of RHS are torso rotation, which creates circular swing of the arm, and Internal Shoulder Rotation, bringing racquet from lag position over and through the ball.
Referring to this diagram, the left pix represents a fully stretch back swing. Yes?
Then, we swing the arm together (for the FH). Is this the primary action responsible for most of the power in the stroke?
But that’s only to know once, not to think of on court.
You take racquet back with full torso turn and leg + torso load (coil).
You initiate the swing with drop, uncoiling and elbow-down, buttcap forward flip/swivel.
You swipe across the ball with ISR and racquet head surpassing the hand, somewhere near the end of major torso uncoil.
You power source is full body load and unload. Your power delivery is arm & racquet head coming through at the end, while achieving clean contact.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Compare it frame-by-frame to an ATP stroke and list all differences.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Which atp?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I did not follow your post. No specifics in your post and I had not read the earlier posts. If you have a stroke improvement of some sort, video it now, and compare your new stroke to your favorite ATP player for that stroke. If technique is different you are on your own. Post specifics. What stroke?
If it is back turn & swing to forward turn & swing timing then that can be observed for ATP pros and seems to be quick. That would involve the stretch shorten cycle (SSC) of certain muscles. When you stretch muscles they lose elasticity in a short time, if you sped up the time between your take back and forward swing and it works better, consider the SSC and its timing for all muscles and joint motions.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
it's not that easy.
What you said is akin to watching Anatoly lift, and we mimic n can lift a thousand lbs like he.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Is the tip of the racquet pointing up and above your shoulder?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Yes. But what's that got to do with swing arc size?
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
dude really like to help ya at this point a vid is needed.
fh is impossible to teach with just key strokes.
I tot a few guys, countless number of hours, can be multiple issues, lack of wrist structure, open face, distance to the ball, lack of left hand support... so many things can go wrong.
also countless number of regressions.... bad habits come back whenever the ball is too easy, too hard, or guy wants to win a match with the old shyt so I told them don't play for score when your building the shyt or just prepare to lose with the new technique.
the complexity is about the same as teaching a complete newbie without license to drive a stick shift. you'd not want to send this guy to public traffic after typing some instructions.
or maybe do a clinic/private lesson locally...
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Big or moderate "C".
