Forehand Loop ATP vs WTA Forehand Questions
- Thread starter topspin_forehand
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10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
dude how old are you? just curious before I answerSo, guys...
What exactly qualifies as a pro-level FH?
1. Unit turn with both hands on racket. This position more or less.
2. Separation?
Drop... exactly like this.
Then swing ...
Yeah?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
12dude how old are you? just curious before I answer
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
That last pic/GIF makes it look like something different than is actually happening is happening. That’s the problem with video.So, guys...
What exactly qualifies as a pro-level FH?
1. Unit turn with both hands on racket. This position more or less.
2. Separation?
Drop... exactly like this.
Then swing ...
Yeah?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
ok, go ahead and replicate the fed sequence..
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Not replicate.
Understand the basic necessities and get as close to them as possible.
It's always interesting to me that with all the pro clips, instructions available, we rec players still can't get remotely close to the right form.
If you play basketball, most rec players can bounce and shoot the ball with very similar forms to a pro. Not tennis. We really bastardize the swings. Lol
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I tried to copy this Fed footwork sequence without hitting a single ball. Gave me some idea of the actual intensity of the movement. Not for regular 40 year old mortals.
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
Well done! I didn’t see a whole heck of a lot of difference until that last forehand.
As you can see at the end there, you lunged through the forehand, and Federer did not. Not just picking on you, but why do rec players think they have to drive their body through shots? It only slows your racket down.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Couple things.
For me, ball-less swing (shadow swing?) is always easy to look like a pro. When the ball is added in the equation all bets are off!
Can we copy pro forms and movements but without their intensity? Intensity is a separate issue, no?
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
The pro clips don’t give you a clue of what their body is actually doing.
As for instruction, yeah, they are from people who don’t have (insert last nine words of previous sentence.)
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I disagree. Pros aren't gods that do things through magic.
Human forms are mostly the same and thus relatable. Even @10sbeast888 said most pro's swing similar. (or something like that).
We rec players do not get the pro's efficiency or speed, but we can certainly replicate close and at slower speeds.
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johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Pro form is the form that can handle pro level balls. I can hit ball machine with good looking strokes, which means nothing. Old crafty 4.5s pick me apart on any given day.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
It comes down to individual's definition.
My def of "pro form" is just the way you swing your strokes that look like a pro. They have most elements you see in a pro stroke, minus the speed/strength.
Can you really hit ball machine and look like Fed?
Of course matches are different. Matches take a lot more than just strokes themselves. Eg, speed, stamina, footwork, your mind that day.
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
Yeah, and I’ve said that numerous times here. What does that have to do with anything? Again, you can’t just make your body parts go to the same places and get the same result because you don’t know what they are doing physically/ biomechanically that makes their body do what they are.
Good luck! How long have you been trying?
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
I'm not nearly as obsessed as you. I'm happy with the look. More worried about what it does for me in matches.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Since I started tennis and will continue until I quit.
What about you? You got a goal, to be somewhere? How long have you been in TT?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
it's good that you implied subjectivity or "to each his own" at this point because your idea of Fed lookalike is a good example.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Looks like you are in a fighting mode. Not what Im here for. Enjoy.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Calm down. I'm not nearly as sensitive as you.
I merely pointed out the subjectivity which is the difference between us.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
it comes down to racket control, hence the 'teach the hand first' idea.
same is on the golf range... all the guys shadow like tiger but hit like pu55y lol.
'all bets are off' because a shadow swing doesnt care about the face angle (usually the face is open for recs)... but when there is a real ball suddenly the player realizes the ball will fly over the back fence if keeps going with the 'Fed fh' lol.... so he has to stop rotation, shut it down with the hand, and the shot looks like just another 3.5 fh lol.
progression should be, hand first.... I have a index knuckle drill, you should be able to sustain 50 ball rallies with just the index knucle putting pressure on bevel 4 doing the door knob turning.
once you understand what true ww is then you can engage more and more of the K chain.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Don't waste any more time arguing with people here. Won't help you. Get a coach. Post some videos. Hit more balls. The look will improve along the way. When you tell others to calm down, often it's the other way around. I tried to lighten up the mood by posting two videos. Lesson learned, again.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
Damn you gonna hurt lot of puff balls posting like that.
But you aint wrong there. Aside from "face angle", ball-less swing absolutely doesn't have timing (for the ball) and timing is like 99.9% factor in tennis. LOL.
Anyway, I've been going at my FH fixing for past several weeks... I have learned quite a lot or perhaps re-discovered...
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
Damn you gonna hurt lot of puff balls posting like that.
But you aint wrong there. Aside from "face angle", ball-less swing absolutely doesn't have timing (for the ball) and timing is like 99.9% factor in tennis. LOL.
Anyway, I've been going at my FH fixing for past several weeks... I have learned quite a lot or perhaps re-discovered...
there is another way to do it... I have tried this on a couple of guys, mixed results..
you do the Fed fh... but you aim at YOUR service line. the ball will likely hit the bottom of the net.
this trains a player what it feels like to swing with a closed face.
then you gradually raise the target until it goes over the net... ATP average net clearance is 2ft... recs can shoot for something like average 3ft due to the slower ball speed.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Post a video
user92626
G.O.A.T.
..of my shadow swing?
Or, of me hitting the ball? Im not super happy yet cuz it ain't much different fr last videos, 20 months ago. Probably just a tad more power.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I don't think it's as complicated as you make it sound.
Sure we may not swing as fast as the pros, but many of us can swing fast with Roger's technique.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
sure.. many can... my observation is kids who have learned from scratch usually have much better fh's than adults who self taught or learned 40 years ago with wooden rackets and try to adapt to todays equipment.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Do you guys think that simply achieving these 3 elements would elevate our FH, make it look more like pro (by that I mean pro quality):
- Raise racket head to at least our face's level
- Maintain a relatively upright posture with a wider footing base.
- Off-hand stays up.
-- With those elements achieved you can pretty much swing any way you want as long as the ball go where you want.
??
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Doesn't matter. Post anything. Work on it and update it after a while. I just don't want you to become one of the tipholics, who keep asking for tips and never actually improve. Once you post videos, you hold yourself accountable for actually improving
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
are you still working with your coach?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
ok, thanks for your concern.
I have tried that route. I didn't get much helpful tips from people viewing my clips. Even our most critical troll...I mean..critic @ballmachineguy said I only have a small issue and he's been trying to this day to come up with a solution. Nothing yet. So, that's not very productive.
Anyhoo. I'll post something when I get to it. In the mean time I still can get tips via posts. LOL.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
where is the old clip?ok, thanks for your concern.
I have tried that route. I didn't get much helpful tips from people viewing my clips. Even our most critical troll...I mean..critic @ballmachineguy said I only have a small issue and he's been trying to this day to come up with a solution. Nothing yet. So, that's not very productive.
Anyhoo. I'll post something when I get to it. In the mean time I still can get tips via posts. LOL.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
1 year old clips. Two different clips btw though they do look nearly identical.
I'll record a new clip soon. Hopefully better, larger swing...
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
1 year old clips. Two different clips btw though they do look nearly identical.
I'll record a new clip soon. Hopefully better, larger swing...
this is much better than I anticipated... there is nothing wrong... what are you not happy about on the court?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
thank you.
I want ..more of everything. J/k.
I dunno. Probably more power. I figure I'd need a larger swing (longer runway) and it's been screwing me up.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
thank you.
I want ..more of everything. J/k.
I dunno. Probably more power. I figure I'd need a larger swing (longer runway) and it's been screwing me up.
dude your swing is already bigger than Mannarino's.. imo at this point maybe some set up adjustment? frame + string combo..
share you some recent experience switching to the prestige line:
- low tension = more power... small swing, lower tension.. Mannarino at 10kg, worth a try.... I am at 30lbs with Solinco Tourbite;
- but you must have a stiff/responsive frame... the i.Prestige although at 62/63 flex actually play much more responsive... but e.g. the Youtek is completely dead piece of crap. (yes am trying different generations to find the optimal).
e.g. the same swing the youtek would be 10 ft shorter than the i. the diff between a stinger and a sitter.
you might just copy Mannarino's set up, and with the new improved volleys your ready to kick some a55!
Dragy
Legend
Oh, that guy! Has he issued his book he promised several years ago?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Uh..I take that as a good thing. ok thanks for vote of confidence. I suppose I should be less obsessed w the fh.
Already started paying attention on volley. Your tips made a big impact.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
Uh..I take that as a good thing. ok thanks for vote of confidence. I suppose I should be less obsessed w the fh.
Already started paying attention on volley. Your tips made a big impact.
dude I have made a confession that I am a pusher myself.. fh swing aint that bigger than yours... since your more than 12 years old.. thing is as adults who has the energy to swing like the pros... I can sustain for maybe 2 games then the overall quality suffers.
compact swing, let the loose strings do the work... your good.
Dragy
Legend
Your technique looks really good in these clips, I believe I said it previous time. Maybe it just doesn’t hold together too well when you move and get balls all over the court? Need to see on-court video!1 year old clips. Two different clips btw though they do look nearly identical.
I'll record a new clip soon. Hopefully better, larger swing...
If anything, it’s what you were asking for: the transition into lag, the initiation of swing. You might be a bit tight driving your arm “in front of your body” initially, ripping in one short-timed motion. While the swing might be just a tad more “developing”, when you start with gentle uncoiling and transitioning into lag… and then with no pause go on into hit, but from that brief “entrance”, where your hand and arm feels as if staying back behind… but actually doesn’t, because you have that elbow-down thing
To me it’s a bit of “whip” effect, but not wild, and not around the wrist — but around the elbow maybe. Nunchaku maybe, not whip.
But again, I see no reason for this swing of yours not working well. If you manage to get to the ball well and timely, if you don’t tighten up and do swing freely — it looks decently powerful, the ball shoots out!
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
If you want to look good, work on footwork on a real court. The swing is totally fine. Stop chasing the diminishing return on the forehand hand motion. How are your one hander and serve?1 year old clips. Two different clips btw though they do look nearly identical.
I'll record a new clip soon. Hopefully better, larger swing...
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Thx. I don't think I get all of what you said, ie too advance for me.Your technique looks really good in these clips, I believe I said it previous time. Maybe it just doesn’t hold together too well when you move and get balls all over the court? Need to see on-court video!
If anything, it’s what you were asking for: the transition into lag, the initiation of swing. You might be a bit tight driving your arm “in front of your body” initially, ripping in one short-timed motion. While the swing might be just a tad more “developing”, when you start with gentle uncoiling and transitioning into lag… and then with no pause go on into hit, but from that brief “entrance”, where your hand and arm feels as if staying back behind… but actually doesn’t, because you have that elbow-down thing
To me it’s a bit of “whip” effect, but not wild, and not around the wrist — but around the elbow maybe. Nunchaku maybe, not whip.
But again, I see no reason for this swing of yours not working well. If you manage to get to the ball well and timely, if you don’t tighten up and do swing freely — it looks decently powerful, the ball shoots out!
But the points I got from you is I need to get more loose, and better footwork, get to the ball well on the court, echoed by @johnmccabe also (thanks John). Totally agreed.
Dragy
Legend
I’m not trying to be too technical, but seems I just cannot transmit it simpler while on the other side of the globe
I write longer posts trying to say one same thing multiple times in different words. On court together would be so much easier, because you can try immediately and feel when it clicks.But overall yeah, a bit more looseness and kind of “brawl in a pub” type of swing opposed to “lightning jab” of pro boxer. You maybe don’t try to deliberately wind it up hugely, but swing it with amplitude and clear desire to bust that mf’er right here, right now! And then switch to the next one.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Recorded today in slo-mo. Sorry about the flashing.
4 shadow swings!!!! then 3 with balls! Obviously ball-less is easier.
I've managed to change a few things: higher takeback, larger swing arc and off hand stays up somewhat!
I still need to work out the bending for low balls, and blah blah blah...
4 shadow swings!!!! then 3 with balls! Obviously ball-less is easier.
I've managed to change a few things: higher takeback, larger swing arc and off hand stays up somewhat!
I still need to work out the bending for low balls, and blah blah blah...
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
You mean, not afraid to go "messy", like do whatever strokes (messy pub brawl) if I have to, and only focus on elaborate strokes when I have time? If so, yeah..totally agree. A match is messy, my opponents are fast and I don't usually have time to set up! But given opportunity I can blast the ball ok.
Dragy
Legend
Funny, how we perceive analogies quite differently)) I mean, having a long swing which is seen and anticipated 2 days in advance, and any competent fighter will dodge it and pin you with a uppercut while you loose balance after missing his head entirely... But the ball won't do it to you. It will patiently wait/go exactly where you expect it. So you can develop your swing long enough and smooth enoough.
Maybe think of how they set records on boxing arcade machine, but tone it down to like 60%, keeping the amplitude and focus on clean delivery, the blow
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Kudos for the Prestiges.
Speaking of which (if you can find an affordable one, maybe on fleabay or from a German auction site), you may want to have a look at the Head TGT 293.1 prostock, in a Prestige PJ 16x18. I haven't seen another controlled racquet, with so much power ( plus feel ), mainly due to the fact of how easily in swings!
I've owned 3-4 versions from heavy to lighter ones and they all are easy to swing.
I use either full bed poly at 46/44 LBs or gut poly at 50/48 LBs, no need to go lower imo.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Recorded today in slo-mo. Sorry about the flashing.
4 shadow swings!!!! then 3 with balls! Obviously ball-less is easier.
I've managed to change a few things: higher takeback, larger swing arc and off hand stays up somewhat!
I still need to work out the bending for low balls, and blah blah blah...
More extension first if the goal is for better match performance,cuz that'll help you cut down UEs and increase power. If these slow feeds alter your swing, it's going to be much bigger challenges when you play against a human on real court.
The form has be improved hand in hand with the ability to read the incoming ball, movement, tactics and controlling the pace trajectory placement of the ball. Otherwise you'll feel everything returns to old habits in matches and nothing changes after working on it for years.
