Forehand: racket face angle is constant through the hitting zone

[ByeByePoly]

There’s a wrong premise/intent to roll RH over the ball. There’s a good techniques with rotating RH to come from below the handle to above to enhance brushing up the back of the ball, which is arm rolling/door knob turn/WW/ISR/whatever you want to call it. It also has effect on RF angle for grips up to strong SW (W seems to just brush with WW, not close).

I think the part of the arm rolling with rf staying constant is likely the confusing part when you first hear about the arm rolling. It would be easy to assume that meant rolling rf during contact.

Watch the fh @00:10 below. It looks like rf is pretty much set at 00:14 ... and swing path and the rolling both raise the rh to contact ... with rf pretty constant from 00:14 to contact (hard to observe that for sure ... but that is what it looks like).

Arm rolling with hand/wrist extension basically maintains rf ... a neutral hand/wrist would be rf roll with the arm.

Bottom line for me ... Fed's rf stays at constant angle through contact for standard non-mishit rally ball. I agree with @dominikk1985 ... that would be a good swing thought (cue). That becomes the foundation ... and as you suggest, we make adjustments from for high balls, etc.

 

[dominikk1985]

Btw I'm not saying we shouldn't teach PTD, flip and ISR, it can make sense to teach that much detail if a player doesn't get it himself. I'm just warning against a rapid change of direction of the racket around contact which as I said happened for some time when the FYB windshield wiper videos came out (swing straight to ball then try to rip racket across or roll it over the ball).

I just wanted to show that there is no change of direction or increased roll around contact, the racket movement remains pretty steady before, at and after contact and the "roll" or "across" is just a natural continuation of the swing path. Natural of course is relative, you still need to move correctly.

But whatever you do don't ever try to change/manipulate the racket face path from like 6-7 inches before to 6-7 inches after contact, in that area the racket face needs to move at a steady angle, even though of course a lot is going on in the body to maintain that angle (arm roll, arm swing...). You don't have success if you change direction within this "hitting zone" window.

Regarding the teaching I don't teach tennis but baseball and while I have a lot of biomechanics knowledge going to complicated ruined many of my early students. Thus I learned to always go from simple to complicated.

My motto is: using natural movements and not teaching is better than teaching but if a move is bad you need to change it. This means I first explain it in a simplified (and not quite correct) way like old school coaches did and then I let the student swing. Then the next step is evaluate, if the student does a move correctly, I won't teach him anything more and make it complicated. But if he does it wrong I will go into more detail and use fine tuning drills, sometimes even micro moves (like pronation). However I do try to avoid that and use natural movements whenever possible because any change is a risk. So go with the simple cue, see if it works and only if it doesn't go more complicated. If you teach micro moves excessively albeit the kid already does it naturally you are wasting time but with some kids it is needed.

Going into biomechanical detail is not an end itself to show how smart you are, know the details as a coach but try simple cues first and only go complicated if needed.

 

[dominikk1985]

You can see no roll or change of rackethead direction during this phase. Of course this is low intensity warm up but the principle doesnt change.

https://www.coachseye.com/v/650f7706a78a46f09f71b1ab3dc44545

 

[ByeByePoly]

Btw I'm not saying we shouldn't teach PTD, flip and ISR, it can make sense to teach that much detail if a player doesn't get it himself. I'm just warning against a rapid change of direction of the racket around contact which as I said happened for some time when the FYB windshield wiper videos came out (swing straight to ball then try to rip racket across or roll it over the ball).

I just wanted to show that there is no change of direction or increased roll around contact, the racket movement remains pretty steady before, at and after contact and the "roll" or "across" is just a natural continuation of the swing path. Natural of course is relative, you still need to move correctly.

But whatever you do don't ever try to change/manipulate the racket face path from like 6-7 inches before to 6-7 inches after contact, in that area the racket face needs to move at a steady angle, even though of course a lot is going on in the body to maintain that angle (arm roll, arm swing...). You don't have success if you change direction within this "hitting zone" window.

Regarding the teaching I don't teach tennis but baseball and while I have a lot of biomechanics knowledge going to complicated ruined many of my early students. Thus I learned to always go from simple to complicated.

My motto is: using natural movements and not teaching is better than teaching but if a move is bad you need to change it. This means I first explain it in a simplified (and not quite correct) way like old school coaches did and then I let the student swing. Then the next step is evaluate, if the student does a move correctly, I won't teach him anything more and make it complicated. But if he does it wrong I will go into more detail and use fine tuning drills, sometimes even micro moves (like pronation). However I do try to avoid that and use natural movements whenever possible because any change is a risk. So go with the simple cue, see if it works and only if it doesn't go more complicated. If you teach micro moves excessively albeit the kid already does it naturally you are wasting time but with some kids it is needed.

Going into biomechanical detail is not an end itself to show how smart you are, know the details as a coach but try simple cues first and only go complicated if needed.

hahaha ... you could greet the tennis student on the first day and tell them if you ever say "ISR" out loud to them ... it was their fault and not yours.

 

[dominikk1985]

Most what we see as roll happens at least 10 inches after contact albeit the motions leading to it of course start before contact.it is like with a baseball swing; if you move correctly the roll over will happen naturally but we try to delay it as long as possible.

https://www.coachseye.com/v/afe4d973779249c0845d6119caf8351c

 

[WestboroChe]

well this part follows discussion of "early acceleration", so the instruction is how to avoid snatching the racket abruptly from the slot, at the ball in the effort to swing super fast, as well as how to use that lead-in to align and set up for this stable contact. To have the face set and the racket traveling on the intended swing plane just prior to contact and to hold that as the player brings the racket "up, thru and across" the contact. This is probably where the idea of hitting thru 3 balls originated as a way to get players to experience this.

The biggest takeaway from watching the Fed FH is how out in front he hits the ball. This obviously means that he is accelerating through the shot and also preparing early. He tends to hit with a more linear motion than the windshield wiper motion which hits a flatter, more penetrating shot. Sometimes he flips his wrist to get a little more TS sometimes he doesn’t. And of course not every FH is a topspin drive.

Beyond this I don’t see how ruminating on the RF and stuff is helpful. There is no substitute for just hitting a bunch of balls and developing your own forehand. However I do believe it can be helpful to watch a player (at full speed) and keep that image in mind when hitting.

 

[Dragy]

Watch the fh @00:10 below. It looks like rf is pretty much set at 00:14 ... and swing path and the rolling both raise the rh to contact ... with rf pretty constant from 00:14 to contact (hard to observe that for sure ... but that is what it looks like).

I dunno what you mean by constant. With such low ball RF clearly opens up from facing the ground all the way into contact. Racquet head clearly goes up all the way into contact. RF clearly rotates from facing somewhere to the right to facing the target at contact to facing left. What is constant there?

 

[ByeByePoly]

I dunno what you mean by constant. With such low ball RF clearly opens up from facing the ground all the way into contact. Racquet head clearly goes up all the way into contact. RF clearly rotates from facing somewhere to the right to facing the target at contact to facing left. What is constant there?

I was just speculating on Fed's fh above from buttcap forward @00:14 to contact that the rf orientation to arm is fairly constant. There is no way to measure that ... just what it looks like to me. Also ... we are doing final arm/hand stuff to control shots ... you figure some of that controls rf.

Also ... to my eyes ... the arm rolling isn't an equal thing throughout the forward swing, some before contact but most after ... like dom posted above.

 

[dominikk1985]

I dunno what you mean by constant. With such low ball RF clearly opens up from facing the ground all the way into contact. Racquet head clearly goes up all the way into contact. RF clearly rotates from facing somewhere to the right to facing the target at contact to facing left. What is constant there?

Obviously it is not totally rigid all the time. It opens up during the flip but from after the flip to about 10 inches past contact the opening angle stays about the same. Then when he "runs out of arm" in the follow through the face starts to close again but the ball is long gone then. You are probably right that arm swing and arm roll are balancing each other which is why thw racket starts to close when the hand reaches its most forward extended position.

https://www.coachseye.com/v/650f7706a78a46f09f71b1ab3dc44545

 

[Dragy]

I was just speculating on Fed's fh above from buttcap forward @00:14 to contact that the rf orientation to arm is fairly constant. There is no way to measure that ... just what it looks like to me. Also ... we are doing final arm/hand stuff to control shots ... you figure some of that controls rf.

Also ... to my eyes ... the arm rolling isn't an equal thing throughout the forward swing, some before contact but most after ... like dom posted above.

I agree with basically every word here. I like the “RF orientation to arm” notion - it’s very close description of what is constant around contact.

Now we’ve covered arm rolling being unequal: the fact that the huge part of motion is end of swing and follow through doesn’t negate the importance of the initial rotation into the contact.

 

[Dragy]

but from after the flip to about 10 inches past contact the opening angle stays about the same.

About the same against the arm. Not against verticality.

 

[sureshs]

TW, where the people who can't do the thing tell the people who can do the thing that they are wrong.

J

Why don't you post something useful at least once in a while?

 

[J011yroger]

Why don't you post something useful at least once in a while?

I don't have the gif saved.

J

 

[JoelDali]

 

[ByeByePoly]

No doubt they are tired from chasing that medicine ball around the house.

 

[tennisbike]

Old post.. The topic actually is valid. The most critical thing about hitting a tennis ball happens during the short contact between the ball and the racket face. If the angle is off, the shot is bad or you get no shot. There is no debate about that.

Now I believe that having a fairly consistent racket face angle during contact is a fundamental skill for tennis. That is for groundstrokes, volley, forehand or backhands.

Try bouncing a tennis ball on your racket. What is the difference between you who can bounce 50 times without difficulty and a beginner?

 

[Chas Tennis]

For the racket shaft near horizontal the distance between the racket shaft centerline and the ball's impact point matters also. There's
1) the angle just before first touch of the ball to the strings. (last yellow line before impact)
2) the location of impact on the racket face during impact - I have not found a simple description of that. I don't believe that the impact time is so short that it can't affect the ball's trajectory. (green line)
3) the changing angle of the racket face after impact. It may be useful to observe but it can no longer affect the ball trajectory. (red lines)

See tennisspeed website for excellent displays of the racket face as observed from the side. See Djokovic forehand series, Part 9.

It takes a camera with small motion blur to record videos like this. Kinovea, a free open source video analysis application, can place the lines into videos or frame pictures.

 

[J011yroger]

For the racket shaft near horizontal the distance between the racket shaft centerline and the ball's impact point matters also. There's
1) the angle just before first touch of the ball to the strings. (last yellow line before impact)
2) the location of impact on the racket face during impact - I have not found a simple description of that. I don't believe that the impact time is so short that it can't affect the ball's trajectory. (green line)
3) the changing angle of the racket face after impact. It may be useful to observe but it can no longer affect the ball trajectory. (red lines)

See tennisspeed website for excellent displays of the racket face as observed from the side. See Djokovic forehand series, Part 9.

It takes a camera with small motion blur to record videos like this. Kinovea, a free open source video analysis application, can place the lines into videos or frame pictures.

How are they measuring? The racquet is literally pointing at the back fence for most of the stroke. This is a complete fabrication.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

How are they measuring? The racquet is literally pointing at the back fence for most of the stroke. This is a complete fabrication.

J

Here's a video specifically showing how they do it.

They draw a line from each side of the head frame - half way up - to the corresponding side of the frame. It works perfectly for viewing the racket face tilt from the side camera view at impact. The line gets shorter as the line between the sides of the frame turns away from perpendicular to the camera's viewing angle, as in the short yellow lines of the Nadal video. It would work best if the racket frame sides had markers placed on them.

 

[J011yroger]

Here's a video specifically showing how they do it.

They draw a line from each side of the head frame - half way up - to the corresponding side of the frame. It works perfectly for viewing the racket face tilt from the side camera view at impact. The line gets shorter as the line between the sides of the frame turns away from perpendicular to the camera's viewing angle, as in the short yellow lines of the Nadal video. It would work best if the racket frame sides had markers placed on them.

That's absurd.

J

 

[FedIsBoat]

Not so constant here:

 

[tennisbike]

My option is that there is little argument about the significance of this racket face angle at contact. A lot of posts discuss about the pitch, tipping up and down, but no body mentioned about yaw, rotation about vertical axis. I have a feeling this lining up, or snapping forward, the racket face from pulling the butt cap or pat-the-dog, from ESR stretched to ISR releasing is something pretty unique about with this so called modern or ATP forehand, from Thomas in Feel Tennis. But again this is probably something that one should just get on the court and hit a bunch, hundreds, or thousands, of balls to try to time it just right, to find it, instead of talking about it.