Forehand Separation Angle: Forward Swing To Contact

[Raul_SJ]

Let's assume the hips have rotated 90 degrees and shoulders have rotated 100 degrees, creating a 10 degree seperation angle.

And we get into the "modern forehand" setup position, as shown in the Lock and Roll video.

1. How does this 10 degree separation angle change from forward swing initiation to contact?
That is, does the hip lead the swing forward? Or the shoulder? Or do they rotate together to contact?

2. What is the separation angle at contact?

 

[psv255]

Most biomechanically efficient sequence would start from the leg push, so the hips would fire first. The separation angle would decrease as the tension in the core releases into the shot, carrying the shoulders past the hips, creating a "negative" separation angle so to speak. At contact it would be at most 0, since the shoulder launches out from behind the hip in the vertical plane.
Basically for a righty FH the right shoulder starts behind the right hip and ends up level with or slightly in front of the right hip. Hip should lead the swing.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The view from above is very good for this issue. Unfortunately, high speed videos of tennis strokes taken from above are rare. Here is a FYB video of a Frank Salazar forehand. I can't say how representative Frank Salazar's forehand is of the techniques that are out there.

 

[andrehanderson]

hmmm...so the hip leads slightly ahead of the upper body?

 

[Curious]

Could it simply be because you coil more hence store more energy to be released later that way rather than the sequence of first fire hips then shoulders?
Only when shoulders pass the hips do you get real coiling, without that it’s just turning.

 

[Fintft]

Could it simply be because you coil more hence store more energy to be released later that way rather than the sequence of first fire hips then shoulders?
Only when shoulders pass the hips do you get real coiling, without that it’s just turning.

You don't want to arm the ball, even after coilling, so hips move first( or better yet it starts with the leg push).

 

[Curious]

You don't want to arm the ball, even after coilling, so hips move first( or better yet it starts with the leg push).

A great way to screw up rec forehand!

 

[Fintft]

A great way to screw up rec forehand!

I speak only for myself, do you as well?

 

[Curious]

I speak only for myself, do you as well?

I speak for both of us.

 

[Fintft]

I speak for both of us.

Which way will ruin your FH, arming the ball or Lock and roll video?

 

[Curious]

Which way will ruin your FH, arming the ball or Lock and roll video?

I didn’t advocate arming the ball. Remember, I said torso coil and use that stored energy.
Anyway Tom made this video to convince you that it doesn’t have to be fired in sequence. Rotating hips and shoulders at the same time is much much better than good enough.

 

[Fintft]

I didn’t advocate arming the ball. Remember, I said torso coil and use that stored energy.
Anyway Tom made this video to convince you that it doesn’t have to be fired in sequence. Rotating hips and shoulders at the same time is much much better than good enough.

Maybe, but you have to prove to me that you are hitting very relaxed.
Myself at the first sign of trouble( arm pain, lack of power etc) I go back to starting the move from the hips, for effortless power.

 

[socallefty]

Only those who can hit 20-30 crosscourt FHs without missing in a consistency drill should post on this thread. Otherwise, you probably have bigger fundamentals to worry about first.

 

[Curious]

Myself at the first sign of trouble( arm pain, lack of power etc) I go back to starting the move from the hips, for effortless power.

No problem with that. The problem is trying to fire them in sequence. Sounds good but not practical, nor necessary.

 

[Pride]

Only those who can hit 20-30 crosscourt FHs without missing in a consistency drill should post on this thread. Otherwise, you probably have bigger fundamentals to worry about first.

Does it count if they are all MEP slice forehands that end up short or very short?

 

[ballmachineguy]

If you are thinking about this, you are in big trouble. When you hit the ball at a contact point out in front, all of this takes care of itself. No wonder no one gets anywhere in this forum. Always complicating things.
Next, let’s figure out how the right gastrocnemius affects our one-hand backhand.

 

[socallefty]

Does it count if they are all MEP slice forehands that end up short or very short?

If they don‘t have depth your drilling partner probably won’t be able to keep the drill going so that you can hit 20-30 shots in a row - you have to be able to give them a ‘good’ ball.

 

[ballmachineguy]

hmmm...so the hip leads slightly ahead of the upper body?

Did Chas put you up to this with his “trunk muscle” comment? Don’t allow people to take you backwards.
It is that dilly-dallying you do making that loop with your wrist that causes any separation issues you may be having.

 

[Curious]

Always complicating things.
Next, let’s figure out how the right gastrocnemius affects our one-hand backhand.

I doubt it does much, it’s mostly the left one.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Could it simply be because you coil more hence store more energy to be released later that way rather than the sequence of first fire hips then shoulders?
Only when shoulders pass the hips do you get real coiling, without that it’s just turning.

No.

You are 1) lengthening trunk muscles to a favorable length for shortening AND 2) stretching them elastically. And it may be more complicated.......... But if you do not look at the video - and see everything - and instead replace it with a single undefined word such as "coiling" or "loading" then you will be missing some biomechanics

define "coiling"
define "loading"
"unit turn" is that like a barn door? all together?

 

[optic yellow]

The view from above is very good for this issue. Unfortunately, high speed videos of tennis strokes taken from above are rare. Here is a FYB video of a Frank Salazar forehand. I can't say how representative Frank Salazar's forehand is of the techniques that are out there.

This view really lets you appreciate his footwork too.

 

[Curious]

define "coiling"

Yes, stretching, lengthening certain muscles in the trunk. That’s clear enough for me. I’m not interested in further physical or biomechanical understanding of the action.

 

[optic yellow]

No.

You are 1) lengthening trunk muscles to a favorable length for shortening AND 2) stretching them elastically. And it may be more complicated.......... But if you do not look at the video - and see everything - and instead replace it with a single undefined word such as "coiling" or "loading" then you will be missing some biomechanics

define "coiling"
define "loading"
"unit turn" is that like a barn door? all together?

Coiling is how to think about it conceptually rather than technically. You need both to gain complete understanding.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Yes, stretching, lengthening certain muscles in the trunk. That’s clear enough for me. I’m not interested in further physical or biomechanical understanding of the action.

Coiling is how to think about it conceptually rather than technically. You need both to gain complete understanding.

There are many tennis terms that are ambiguous is usage. To me "coiling" is circular body rotation that at first lengthens muscles so that they are able to shorten effectively but may also stretch muscles. To understand muscle shortening and its limitations look at the microscopic Sarcomeres - they can only shorten over some percentage of their length.

In this video, in my opinion, Djokovic's feet are placed so that his trunk muscles can effectively shorten over the angle he wants for the forehand he intends to hit. He also is doing some muscle stretching, probably mostly for his obliques. Use of the trunk muscles is indicated by separation (a defined tennis term). Little separation, in other words little trunk twist, means there is little use of the trunk muscles. That might be the largest single contributor to racket head speed and pace. See B. Elliott video.

 

[optic yellow]

There are many tennis terms that are ambiguous is usage. To me "coiling" is circular body rotation that at first lengthens muscles so that they are able to shorten effectively but may also stretch muscles. To understand muscle shortening and its limitations look at the microscopic Sarcomeres - they can only shorten over some percentage of their length.

In this video, in my opinion, Djokovic's feet are placed so that his trunk muscles can effectively shorten over the angle he wants for the forehand he intends to hit. He also is doing some muscle stretching, probably mostly for his obliques. Use of the trunk muscles is indicated by separation (a defined tennis term). Little separation, in other words little trunk twist, means there is little use of the trunk muscles. That might be the largest single contributor to racket head speed and pace. See B. Elliott video.

Don't forget to remind me that separation is the angle between the line drawn through the hips and the line drawn through the shoulders.

Re: video, before you worry about his trunk notice how much his hips move. That is the true source of power in any sort of swinging motion since the whole upper body kinetic chain is built upon it. You set the upper body in motion using the hips and unfurl the chain on top of that momentum. I would imagine Djokovic set his feet the way he did to optimize the hip angle through the point of contact. Since that is also part of the trunk twist definition I imagine trunk twist may come in to play as well. I don't know how to define optimal in this case but I know an "optimal" angle for a given swing does mathematically exist.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Don't forget to remind me that separation is the angle between the line drawn through the hips and the line drawn through the shoulders.

.......as viewed from above.

 

[optic yellow]

.......as viewed from above.

Dammit.

See edit for thoughts on the video.

 

[ChaelAZ]

hmmm...so the hip leads slightly ahead of the upper body?

I did this video a while back for a thread on leg drive, hip activation, and timing. I had to make it private because Simon and Alex who run Love Tennis and Top Tennis Training asked to take it down because I used their footage for my editorial evaluation and commentary, but I will open for a bit to get what others are seeing. Will be private again though to respect their ask. It was a popular video, so I think it had value as a review.

Wutcha think?

 

[nyta2]

I did this video a while back for a thread on leg drive, hip activation, and timing. I had to make it private because Simon and Alex who run Love Tennis and Top Tennis Training asked to take it down because I used their footage for my editorial evaluation and commentary, but I will open for a bit to get what others are seeing. Will be private again though to respect their ask. It was a popular video, so I think it had value as a review.

Wutcha think?

i found this useful&funny... i stole it for my lessons

 

[ChaelAZ]

i found this useful&funny... i stole it for my lessons

 

[Chas Tennis]

Don't forget to remind me that separation is the angle between the line drawn through the hips and the line drawn through the shoulders.

Re: video, before you worry about his trunk notice how much his hips move. That is the true source of power in any sort of swinging motion since the whole upper body kinetic chain is built upon it. You set the upper body in motion using the hips and unfurl the chain on top of that momentum. I would imagine Djokovic set his feet the way he did to optimize the hip angle through the point of contact. Since that is also part of the trunk twist definition I imagine trunk twist may come in to play as well. I don't know how to define optimal in this case but I know an "optimal" angle for a given swing does mathematically exist.

Uppermost body turn demo -

1) feet - move feet to walk in a small circle so that the uppermost body turns.

2) knees - with feet on the ground bend knees to move hips / pelvis so that the uppermost body turns.

3) trunk twist - with pelvis still, stand and use only the trunk muscles so that the uppermost body turns. Demo separation slowly backward and forward

4) something else?

The feet can include running and planting a foot to cause everything above to turn rapidly.

Look at strokes and see everything being used by the ATP & WTA players and the timing. Notice that there is a very limited number of specific sub-motions being used.

Why are specific sub-motions left out or minimized by club players?

Bruce Elliott, long time tennis biomechanics researcher, says that the turning speed of the uppermost body has a high correlation with ball velocity.

 

[Pumpkin]

It looks to me as though the hips and shoulders ( and torso I guess) rotate at the same time.

 

[Fintft]

It looks to me as though the hips and shoulders ( and torso I guess) rotate at the same time.

Edit:

Or hips slightly ahead of the racquet (I missread your post), as in that Kyrigos vid. But they innitiate the move and the racquet drops and lags, don't forget that part....

Many of my friends can not demonstrate a shadow swing, without the racquet, of a hand lag And I crack up.

 

[Chas Tennis]

It looks to me as though the hips and shoulders ( and torso I guess) rotate at the same time.

Look at high speed videos. Post an ATP player that rotates hips & shoulders at the same time and angle.

I see posters that rotate the hips line and the shoulders line the same time and angle. I call that technique a "barn door forehand".

 

[TennisCJC]

Ground up. Hips pull the shoulders, shoulders pull the arm and the racket head comes through last. I think of it as energy coming from the ground and going up through the body. Letting the hips start rotating before the shoulders allows the chest muscles to stretch, allowing the shoulders to lead the rotation before the arm allows the arm to get some whip from the rotating torso. I think this is the true "lag" in the modern forehand. The arm lags the shoulder, the shoulder lags the hips and these lags create muscle stretching muscles that add power when the stretched muscles recover back to their natural position. The lag is short in my view and you can think of it a continuous energy flow through the legs, hips, shoulders and arm. Another thought that helps me is to think of loading by bending my knees a bit and loading my weight into my R foot (I am R handed). Then I fire the R thigh and hip to lead the uncoiling of the body. The legs and hips will come around and up and stop allowing the shoulders and arm to swing through. Firing the R leg and hip works as a practice thought for me and my best forehands happen when I execute this with decent timing.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Ground up. Hips pull the shoulders, shoulders pull the arm and the racket head comes through last. I think of it as energy coming from the ground and going up through the body. Letting the hips start rotating before the shoulders allows the chest muscles to stretch, allowing the shoulders to lead the rotation before the arm allows the arm to get some whip from the rotating torso. I think this is the true "lag" in the modern forehand. The arm lags the shoulder, the shoulder lags the hips and these lags create muscle stretching muscles that add power when the stretched muscles recover back to their natural position. The lag is short in my view and you can think of it a continuous energy flow through the legs, hips, shoulders and arm. Another thought that helps me is to think of loading by bending my knees a bit and loading my weight into my R foot (I am R handed). Then I fire the R thigh and hip to lead the uncoiling of the body. The legs and hips will come around and up and stop allowing the shoulders and arm to swing through. Firing the R leg and hip works as a practice thought for me and my best forehands happen when I execute this with decent timing.

That sounds complicated. If people actually coach like that the pickleball explosion makes a lot of sense.
“Do what now? Hey, look over there, Pickleball!”

 

[TennisCJC]

That sounds complicated. If people actually coach like that the pickleball explosion makes a lot of sense.
“Do what now? Hey, look over there, Pickleball!”

Actually it is simple. Energy comes from the ground up: legs, hips, shoulders & arm but it is a smooth continuous flow. It is also pretty common in many other sports. Throwing a ball for example uses the same approach. Not a golfer but I think a good golf swing is similar too. Stand in your den and take a few shadow swing and think of loading into your back leg and then rotating up and around from the ground up in a smooth flowing manner. It's simple really.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Actually it is simple. Energy comes from the ground up: legs, hips, shoulders & arm but it is a smooth continuous flow. It is also pretty common in many other sports. Throwing a ball for example uses the same approach. Not a golfer but I think a good golf swing is similar too. Stand in your den and take a few shadow swing and think of loading into your back leg and then rotating up and around from the ground up in a smooth flowing manner. It's simple really.

I was being sarcastic. Not the way it works at the highest level.

 

[optic yellow]

Actually it is simple. Energy comes from the ground up: legs, hips, shoulders & arm but it is a smooth continuous flow. It is also pretty common in many other sports. Throwing a ball for example uses the same approach. Not a golfer but I think a good golf swing is similar too. Stand in your den and take a few shadow swing and think of loading into your back leg and then rotating up and around from the ground up in a smooth flowing manner. It's simple really.

Good golf swing is absolutely the same. It is why I was able to teach myself a proper forehand so quickly as an adult after being a slice junkballer for most of my life. Literally every power motion with the upper extremity uses roughly the same kinetic chain until the shoulder.

 

[optic yellow]

Uppermost body turn demo -

1) feet - move feet to walk in a small circle so that the uppermost body turns.

2) knees - with feet on the ground bend knees to move hips / pelvis so that the uppermost body turns.

3) trunk twist - with pelvis still, stand and use only the trunk muscles so that the uppermost body turns. Demo separation slowly backward and forward

4) something else?

The feet can include running and planting a foot to cause everything above to turn rapidly.

Look at strokes and see everything being used by the ATP & WTA players and the timing. Notice that there is a very limited number of specific sub-motions being used.

Why are specific sub-motions left out or minimized by club players?

Bruce Elliott, long time tennis biomechanics researcher, says that the turning speed of the uppermost body has a high correlation with ball velocity.

Good points, especially about how the footwork integrates with rotation of the the body above it (this is very apparent in the Djokovic video). I guess you just say the uppermost body reaches its highest turning speed when it is slingshot by the hips. Like baseball players tennis players tend to step into their stroke when they can which suggests its the most effective way of getting that motion. Can you list the complete set of specific sub-motions being used (if it's not too much effort)? I think that would help a lot with clarifying things for people who wish to approach strongly from the biomechanical perspective.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Good golf swing is absolutely the same. It is why I was able to teach myself a proper forehand so quickly as an adult after being a slice junkballer for most of my life. Literally every power motion with the upper extremity uses roughly the same kinetic chain until the shoulder.

A golf swing does work that way. Not necessarily a tennis stroke.

 

[optic yellow]

A golf swing does work that way. Not necessarily a tennis stroke.

A standard groundstroke does not work like he described?

 

[Pumpkin]

Look at high speed videos. Post an ATP player that rotates hips & shoulders at the same time and angle.

I see posters that rotate the hips line and the shoulders line the same time and angle. I call that technique a "barn door forehand".

The initial angle is different but everything rotates into the shot simultaneously from what I can see.

 

[ballmachineguy]

A standard groundstroke does not work like he described?

No. Only have to worry about what is happening at shoulder level. The rest takes care of itself as far as contributing to the stroke. What TennisCJC made sound like a sequence of events would lead to erratic, lower velocity shots.
Sure you want to put your feet in the right place and bend the knees, get turned etc, but when it comes time to hit the legs, hips and core will just naturally do what is needed to support the swing. Never give it a thought.

 

[Fintft]

No. Only have to worry about what is happening at shoulder level. The rest takes care of itself as far as contributing to the stroke. What TennisCJC made sound like a sequence of events would lead to erratic, lower velocity shots.
Sure you want to put your feet in the right place and bend the knees, get turned etc, but when it comes time to hit the legs, hips and core will just naturally do what is needed to support the swing. Never give it a thought.

Edit: Some of us do, though...

 

[optic yellow]

No. Only have to worry about what is happening at shoulder level. The rest takes care of itself as far as contributing to the stroke. What TennisCJC made sound like a sequence of events would lead to erratic, lower velocity shots.
Sure you want to put your feet in the right place and bend the knees, get turned etc, but when it comes time to hit the legs, hips and core will just naturally do what is needed to support the swing. Never give it a thought.

That is the same in golf.

 

[ballmachineguy]

That is the same in golf.

Kind of. But the sequence and the timing are of utmost importance in golf. Try hitting a golf bal on one foot or both feet off the ground.

 

[user92626]

I speak only for myself, do you as well?

I speak for both of us.

When did you two get married to each other?

It's always a challenge to figure out who has the final word. Eventually we agreed on flipping a coin. Head I win, tail she loses.

 

[optic yellow]

Kind of. But the sequence and the timing are of utmost importance in golf. Try hitting a golf bal on one foot or both feet off the ground.

They are not so important in tennis? I suppose it is a more forgiving implement and target, though modern drivers make it kind of close

 

[Fintft]

When did you two get married to each other?

It's always a challenge to figure out who has the final word. Eventually we agreed on flipping a coin. Head I win, tail she loses.

I was just trying to help, not trying to have the final word, especially as better players chipped in and explained things so much better than me.
At least we made progress, as a little while ago our @Curious didn't want to consider the ATP FH , while now he seems to like it