Forehand Separation Angle: Forward Swing To Contact

[Chas Tennis]

The initial angle is different but everything rotates into the shot simultaneously from what I can see.

Could you post a video that demonstrates what you mean? (Right click on a Youtube and copy URL, paste in reply, state time in video)

Separation means that the line between the 2 shoulders and the line between the 2 hips move independently during the takeback and forward swing. The separation angle - as viewed from above - would change during the stroke to get the abdominal muscles involved in trunk twisting. That is what I see in ATP forehand videos. Usually, nearer to impact, the shoulder joint is also used to move the upper arm in the forward direction. Viewing high speed video is necessary to better understand trunk twisting by seeing the entire time history.

A significant percentage of TT forehand video posters don't do separation that resembles ATP or WTA separation. Trunk twisting is possibly the most significant difference in technique between rec players and pro players on forehand and one hand backhand drives.

Trunk twisting may be too stressful for some players.

 

[Pumpkin]

Could you post a video that demonstrates what you mean? (Right click on a Youtube and copy URL, paste in reply, state time in video)

Separation means that the line between the 2 shoulders and the line between the 2 hips move independently during the takeback and forward swing. The separation angle - as viewed from above - would change during the stroke to get the abdominal muscles involved in trunk twisting. That is what I see in ATP forehand videos. Usually, nearer to impact, the shoulder joint is also used to move the upper arm in the forward direction. Viewing high speed video is necessary to better understand trunk twisting by seeing the entire time history.

A significant percentage of TT forehand video posters don't do separation that resembles ATP or WTA separation. Trunk twisting is possibly the most significant difference in technique between rec players and pro players on forehand and one hand backhand drives.

Trunk twisting may be too stressful for some players.

Oh. I was going off the video you posted of Djokovic nailing a forehand. I see his shoulders rotated further than his hips in the preparation phase but then everything starts rotating or uncoiling simultaneously after that (into the shot)

 

[Chas Tennis]

Good points, especially about how the footwork integrates with rotation of the the body above it (this is very apparent in the Djokovic video). I guess you just say the uppermost body reaches its highest turning speed when it is slingshot by the hips. Like baseball players tennis players tend to step into their stroke when they can which suggests its the most effective way of getting that motion. Can you list the complete set of specific sub-motions being used (if it's not too much effort)? I think that would help a lot with clarifying things for people who wish to approach strongly from the biomechanical perspective.

"Can you list the complete set of specific sub-motions being used (if it's not too much effort)?"

Not complete -

Pelvis & Spine & Uppermost Body. The spine is mounted on the pelvis, so that anything that turns the pelvis also turns the spine. Trunk twisting can add to the turning that the spine is already getting from the pelvis to give total uppermost body turning.

Uppermost Body Turn & Shoulder Joint. The shoulder joint and upper arm are already moving because the uppermost body is turning forward. The uppermost body turn is usually first in ATP forehands and then the shoulder joint forward turn follows. If you look at high speed videos of ATP forehand drives you should see that for high paced forehands.

The rare above camera view is best for observing these important forward turns.

Fuzzy Yellow Balls video. Maybe Frank Salazar uses his shoulder joint earlier than most current ATP players. ?

I don't know the complete set of sub-motions being used. I'm still trying to observe the most significant sub-motions for racket head speed in high speed videos of ATP players.

The trunk twisting sub-motion is not being used by many TT posters.

There is a risk to trunk twisting especially for players with back issues.

 

[Shroud]

Only those who can hit 20-30 crosscourt FHs without missing in a consistency drill should post on this thread. Otherwise, you probably have bigger fundamentals to worry about first.

fortunately I don't have anything to say . On the far side and only got 17...

 

[Chas Tennis]

Oh. I was going off the video you posted of Djokovic nailing a forehand. I see his shoulders rotated further than his hips in the preparation phase but then everything starts rotating or uncoiling simultaneously after that (into the shot)

Where's the video?

or post the link in your post.

 

[Fintft]

fortunately I don't have anything to say . On the far side and only got 17...

OK, I'll try to prove it as well, with a vid, before posting in this thread again.
@socallefty so robs us of fun though I mean, common if @Curious is allowed to post here, why not us as well? j/k
Do 24 deep balls/minute DTM count though? Alas I have no video for it...

 

[Shroud]

OK, I'll try to prove it as well, with a vid, before posting in this thread again.
@socallefty so robs us of fun though I mean, common if @Curious is allowed to post here, why not us as well? j/k
Do 24 deep balls/minute DTM count though? Alas I have no video for it...

I have a vid where I am doing the 100 ball challenge and think it was like 120 or something. But was hitting both fh and bh and those shots I WAS trying to get it in so the shot quality is not as good

 

[optic yellow]

"Can you list the complete set of specific sub-motions being used (if it's not too much effort)?"

Not complete -

Pelvis & Spine & Uppermost Body. The spine is mounted on the pelvis, so that anything that turns the pelvis also turns the spine. Trunk twisting can add to the turning that the spine is already getting from the pelvis to give total uppermost body turning.

Uppermost Body Turn & Shoulder Joint. The shoulder joint and upper arm are already moving because the uppermost body is turning forward. The uppermost body turn is usually first in ATP forehands and then the shoulder joint forward turn follows. If you look at high speed videos of ATP forehand drives you should see that for high paced forehands.

The rare above camera view is best for observing these important forward turns.

Fuzzy Yellow Balls video. Maybe Frank Salazar uses his shoulder joint earlier than most current ATP players. ?

I don't know the complete set of sub-motions being used. I'm still trying to observe the most significant sub-motions for racket head speed in high speed videos of ATP players.

The trunk twisting sub-motion is not being used by many TT posters.

There is a risk to trunk twisting especially for players with back issues.

I love this video because of how well it illustrates good footwork too. So easy to see how he takes his steps to float himself into the right place to hit the shot he wants. I can't explain what he is doing with his feet because it is hard to put into words but I can appreciate the quality intuitively.

Regarding the actual swing, can you clarify the difference between "uppermost body" forward turn and "shoulder joint" forward turn? To me the shoulder joint turns forward as part of the uppermost body.

 

[Fintft]

I have a vid where I am doing the 100 ball challenge and think it was like 120 or something. But was hitting both fh and bh and those shots I WAS trying to get it in so the shot quality is not as good

Nice!

Well, I failed tonight (the days when I rallied 24-26 balls/minute with my coach deep, DTM are gone) as I've only kept 12 FHs cc in play. Not to mention that when we went high intensity my max was 4 FHs cc against a 4.5.
Need to practice more but I am not keeping my fingers crossed, at least not for the next two months, while I shall be still doing "light" chemo that I've started a month ago(until I get a second opinion and more tests).
Very humid today at still 30C at 9 pm when we stopped.
I shall try red clay in Europe in a couple of weeks as well, with coaches there. And after my hiking where I hope to lose again 10-15 LBs (like last year) and go under 100 kgs at 1,88 cms or 6'2".

 

[Fintft]

I have a vid where I am doing the 100 ball challenge and think it was like 120 or something. But was hitting both fh and bh and those shots I WAS trying to get it in so the shot quality is not as good

Made progress today, but I got no video to prove it( tapped my serve ealier): 30 on the FH side and 15 on the BH, with a 4.5.
Takeaways:
-60-70% power
- Strings matter, as I went back to the racquet with Tour Hex( Technifibre TF40 305), from the one with Hepta Power(Prokennex) that I had been using. Felt the same in practice and in a friendly match.

 

[ballmachineguy]

I didn’t advocate arming the ball. Remember, I said torso coil and use that stored energy.
Anyway Tom made this video to convince you that it doesn’t have to be fired in sequence. Rotating hips and shoulders at the same time is much much better than good enough.

You hear all you need to know right after his Intro page disappears. “So this subject comes up quite a bit with my online students that have watched a lot of YouTube videos.”
It is obvious that he has never even thought of this before and is trying to figure it out on the fly shooting the video. He even starts laughing when he tries the hips then torso then arm nonsense.

 

[Curious]

You hear all you need to know right after his Intro page disappears. “So this subject comes up quite a bit with my online students that have watched a lot of YouTube videos.”
It is obvious that he has never even thought of this before and is trying to figure it out on the fly shooting the video. He even starts laughing when he tries the hips then torso then arm nonsense.

Yup, hips and torso rotating together is more than good enough. Firing them in sequence is bs.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I love this video because of how well it illustrates good footwork too. So easy to see how he takes his steps to float himself into the right place to hit the shot he wants. I can't explain what he is doing with his feet because it is hard to put into words but I can appreciate the quality intuitively.

Regarding the actual swing, can you clarify the difference between "uppermost body" forward turn and "shoulder joint" forward turn? To me the shoulder joint turns forward as part of the uppermost body.

Terms -

There are conversational usages of terms and there are defined usages of terms for technical descriptions. As discussions become more scientific, it becomes more important to drop the conversational usages of terms. In 2022, tennis is not very technical in most discussions, but in biomechanics it is, and defined terms are required.

upper body - defined as the part of the body above the waist. Google it.

shoulder joint - defined joint, search specific joints and their motions for all details. Google it.

shoulder joint motions- defined specific joint motions of the shoulder joint. Google them.

rotation - a defined term for joint motions that technically refers to long axis rotation, of upper arm, of femur, etc. The usage of "rotation' is often very ambiguous - conversational or technical? - in discussing tennis strokes and body motions. Google: "rotation" for joint motions.

shoulder mass - bulk of shoulder, as seen prominently in videos. Different than shoulder joint. Use of terms to describe the shoulder mass are often ambiguous, and can be confused with the shoulder joint.

Example, people tend to call things by what is seen moving. "He is rotating his shoulders." this would be a body turn and/or spinal rotation in conversation. The shoulder joint may not move at all as the shoulder mass is rapidly carried along.

uppermost body - the part of the body extending between the two shoulders - picture a line between the 2 shoulders. Because of trunk twist, the uppermost body can turn in a much faster way than the upper body (it twists).

When the pelvis turns and the trunk twists as it does, the uppermost body turns and moves the shoulder mass forward along with the upper arm. Then later, when the shoulder joint activates, it adds speed to the upper arm. I refer to this uppermost body turn followed by shoulder joint motion as a two phase stroke. There is one axis, spine, for the uppermost body turn and a second axis for the shoulder joint.

 

[yossarian]

along.

uppermost body - the part of the body extending between the two shoulders - picture a line between the 2 shoulders. Because of trunk twist, the uppermost body can turn in a much faster way than the upper body (it twists).

Not a defined term in biomechanics. This is one you made up

 

[Sir Weed]

while I shall be still doing "light" chemo that I've started a month ago(until I get a second opinion and more tests).

Get well soon!