FOREHAND SWING PATH - ISR (SHOULDER) & POWER (TORSO)

#1
Bought recently an action camera to use during the holidays with the family. So thought to combine usage and got to film a couple of my sessions. I was quite surprised to see that:

1. I did not have enough torso rotation although my take back was just fine and to generate power I was using the hand
2.The above created the following: to generate some top spin, the swing path of the arm was being driven by the shoulder and as such almost always after the ball left the strings no matter the vertical height of the contact point I raised my hand from the shoulder at almost eye level, which obviously led the racquet head to reach well above my head (!) before finishing the follow through above the left shoulder
3. As you can imagine the ISR was very limited

So wanting to fix this my questions are:

1. If the horizontal lath (power and therefore depth) is created by the legs and torso movement, what happens to the arm? How does the shoulder move (always in relation to an horizontal level). Do we still close it to the chest before hitting the ball or we kind of "lock" the width of the two hands to remain almost constant, start torso rotation, hit the ball and then "release"/loosen up the hitting arm so it comes around? The latter sounds to me more of a proper "kinematic chain".
(back when I started playing I was overusing the torso...or at least this is what I have been told was the reason I was mistiming the hits. I started moving the torso but the hitting arm was so loose that it was "left behind" and only when the torso and arm reached a point of no flex did the arm started moving to meet the torso.)

2. As regards ISR which i have read it is responsible to generate the top spin and therefore the vertical path (height) of the ball. Is this a by-product of the movement or do we need to intentionally start the ISR at such a point in the time window from before hitting the ball till right after the ball leaves the strings, depending how much spin and additional "weight" we want to put on the ball? Wouldn't this change the racket face tilt?

Hope those are legitimate questions to be answered by you guys and thanks in advance for any help.

EDIT: I use an Eastern grip with a straight arm swing.
 
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#2
Bought recently an action camera to use during the holidays with the family. So thought to combine usage and got to film a couple of my sessions. I was quite surprised to see that:

1. I did not have enough torso rotation although my take back was just fine and to generate power I was using the hand
2.The above created the following: to generate some top spin, the swing path of the arm was being driven by the shoulder and as such almost always after the ball left the strings no matter the vertical height of the contact point I raised my hand from the shoulder at almost eye level, which obviously led the racquet head to reach well above my head (!) before finishing the follow through above the left shoulder
3. As you can imagine teh ISR was very limited

So wanting to fix this my questions are:

1. If the horizontal lath (power and therefore depth) is created by the legs and torso movement, what happens to the arm? How does the shoulder move (always in relation to an horizontal level). Do we still close it to the chest before hitting the ball or we kind of "lock" the width of the two hands to remain almost constant, start torso rotation, hit the ball and then "release"/loosen up the hitting arm so it comes around? The latter sounds to me more of a proper "kinematic chain".
(back when I started playing I was overusing the torso...or at least this is what I have been told was the reason I was mistiming the hits. I started moving the torso but the hitting arm was so loose that it was "left behind" and only when the torso and arm reached a point of no flex did the arm started moving to meet the torso.)

2. As regards ISR which i have read it is responsible to generate the top spin and therefore the vertical path (height) of the ball. Is this a by-product of the movement or do we need to intentionally start the ISR at such a point in the time window from before hitting the ball till right after the ball leaves the strings, depending how much spin and additional "weight" we want to put on the ball? Wouldn't this change the racket face tilt?

Hope those are legitimate questions to be answered by you guys and thanks in advance for any help.
These questions are best answered by high speed videos of high level forehands. If you don't want to copy high level strokes you will have difficulty getting any creditable description of what another forehand is.

The forehand presently has a lot of variety in technique issues. Linear or circular body acceleration, bent elbow or straight elbow, pat the dog or other orientation, buggy whip finish, finish over left shoulder, windshield wiper finish, extra stretch shorten cycle (Sock), take back behind body or not to behind body....

This video by Dan Brown is very informative on the linear vs circular forehand stroke patterns. I believe that the more linear forehand was more common years ago.

The forehand has body rotation that may use spine twisting to some degree. Djokovic seems to use a lot of spine twist. Consider your back in deciding what to do.

There is 'separation' as observed on high level forehands. The line between the two shoulders turns back farther than the line between the two hips, that displays what is called 'separation'. This causes trunk/spine twist to some degree with trunk muscle stretching. Then on the forward swing the hips' turn may precede the shoulders' turn and farther stretch trunk muscles. 'Separation' has been discussed for forehands and other strokes. See videos.
 
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#3
These questions are best answered by high speed videos of high level forehands. If you don't want to copy high level strokes you will have difficulty getting any creditable description of what another forehand is.

The forehand presently has a lot of variety in technique issues. Linear or circular or body acceleration, bent elbow or straight elbow, pat the dog or other orientation, buggy whip finish, finish over left shoulder, windshield wiper finish, extra stretch shorten cycle (Sock), take back behind body or not to behind body....

This video by Dan Brown is very informative on the linear vs circular forehand stroke patterns. I believe that the more linear forehand was more common years ago.

The forehand has body rotation that may use spine twisting to some degree. Djokovic seems to use a lot of spine twist. Consider your back in deciding what to do.

There is 'separation' as observed on high level forehands. The line between the two shoulders turns back farther than the line between the two hips, that displays what is called 'separation'. This causes trunk/spine twist to some degree with trunk muscle stretching. Then on the forward swing the hips' turn may precede the shoulders' turn and farther stretch trunk muscles. 'Separation' has been discussed for forehands and other strokes. See videos.
Thanks a lot for this. My movement is pretty mush this guy's on the video except I don't have such a big take back. Mine is far more compact. That said, the video does not address my consideration. Whether he plays close or open or semi open his hand swing path is still such that the racquet head goes well beyond his eye level, because he uses his shoulder to move the hand horizontally across his body to complete the follow through. As such it is the same as the issue I am having.

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that this is a technical flaw. I am just saying that perhaps there should/could be a better way/technique.
 
#4
Thanks a lot for this. My movement is pretty mush this guy's on the video except I don't have such a big take back. Mine is far more compact. That said, the video does not address my consideration. Whether he plays close or open or semi open his hand swing path is still such that the racquet head goes well beyond his eye level, because he uses his shoulder to move the hand horizontally across his body to complete the follow through. As such it is the same as the issue I am having.

Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that this is a technical flaw. I am just saying that perhaps there should/could be a better way/technique.
View some high level forehands and take your pick. Or do statistics to see what most are doing.

Where the racket ends in the follow through is somewhat optional as the follow throughs are after impact.

An instructor showed us a winshield wiper to keep the ball down that ended around the hip.
 
#5
Bought recently an action camera to use during the holidays with the family. So thought to combine usage and got to film a couple of my sessions. I was quite surprised to see that:

1. I did not have enough torso rotation although my take back was just fine and to generate power I was using the hand
2.The above created the following: to generate some top spin, the swing path of the arm was being driven by the shoulder and as such almost always after the ball left the strings no matter the vertical height of the contact point I raised my hand from the shoulder at almost eye level, which obviously led the racquet head to reach well above my head (!) before finishing the follow through above the left shoulder
3. As you can imagine the ISR was very limited

So wanting to fix this my questions are:

1. If the horizontal lath (power and therefore depth) is created by the legs and torso movement, what happens to the arm? How does the shoulder move (always in relation to an horizontal level). Do we still close it to the chest before hitting the ball or we kind of "lock" the width of the two hands to remain almost constant, start torso rotation, hit the ball and then "release"/loosen up the hitting arm so it comes around? The latter sounds to me more of a proper "kinematic chain".
(back when I started playing I was overusing the torso...or at least this is what I have been told was the reason I was mistiming the hits. I started moving the torso but the hitting arm was so loose that it was "left behind" and only when the torso and arm reached a point of no flex did the arm started moving to meet the torso.)

2. As regards ISR which i have read it is responsible to generate the top spin and therefore the vertical path (height) of the ball. Is this a by-product of the movement or do we need to intentionally start the ISR at such a point in the time window from before hitting the ball till right after the ball leaves the strings, depending how much spin and additional "weight" we want to put on the ball? Wouldn't this change the racket face tilt?

Hope those are legitimate questions to be answered by you guys and thanks in advance for any help.

EDIT: I use an Eastern grip with a straight arm swing.
With an ATP forehand the internal shoulder rotation begins as soon as the racket "snap" starts to occur after the racket has been lagging.

Think of the lag as loading up your shoulder and stretching your muscles and the snap is the release.

If you look at the pros and play the videos at 0.25 speed in the settings icon:



If you focus on the shoulders, they turn, and as soon as it gets near front facing it slows down, almost stopping so that the shoulders are facing into the court.

Its at this point the racket lag begins to catch up and "snap". This makes sense, as in order for the racket to catch up you must slow down your rotation or the racket would just keep lagging.

So once the shoulders stop turning/slow down turning its at this point the racket snap and the internal shoulder rotation begins and you hit the ball.

In summary, roughly as soon as your shoulder turn approaches parallel and you are facing front on into the court, you can begin your internal shoulder rotation to coincide with the racket snap (which is basically a loading up of and then releasing your internal shoulder rotation).

The only caveat id put in is that it varies on the angle in which youre facing front on when you stop/slow down turning your shoulders. Federer and Djokovic appear to have a slight negative angle, that is their right shoulder is slightly behind the left, whereas Nadal appears to hit the ball at a positive angle with his right shoulder in front of his left. Id assume this is to do with the fact Nadal has a western grip which means his contact point is more in front.

Another way to put it perhaps would be to say as soon as your shoulder turn slows down to a position where youre setup and comfortable to hit the ball at the contact point, the racket snap and internal shoulder rotation should start to take over to go and hit the ball at contact point.
 
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#6
Djokovic and Federer forehands
https://tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html


I especially like the racket tilt illustrations that show before, at and after impact with colored lines (late in the article). You should use your high speed video camera in bright sunlight to get similar videos and compare racket tilts around impact.

Note - it is best to use forceful forehands representative of their best shots and not unknown effort practice videos.
 
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Dragy

Professional
#7
Id assume this is to do with the fact Nadal has a western grip which means his contact point is more in front.
I believe Djokovic has more extreme grip than Nadal, who is actually pretty close to true SW.
Djokovic and Federer forehands
https://tennisspeedresearch.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part.html


I especially like the racket tilt illustrations that show before, at and after impact with colored lines (late in the article). You should use your high speed video camera in bright sunlight to get similar videos and compare racket tilts around impact.

Note - it is best to use forceful forehands representative of their best shots and not unknown effort practice videos.
Wasn’t this an off-center hit?
 
#8
I believe Djokovic has more extreme grip than Nadal, who is actually pretty close to true SW.

Wasn’t this an off-center hit?
yes, Federer hit it off center and that's what caused the racket face to close more after impact. if he hit it clean, it would not change the angle much. That's important to note so some one not as informed as me and you doesn't try to say Federer hits topspin by rolling the face over the top of the ball
 
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