That maybe a result of getting struck by a lightening but survived from a brain trauma.
Wait did you actually survive brain trauma? God I feel so bad now
That maybe a result of getting struck by a lightening but survived from a brain trauma.
Do you honestly think this technique is capable of the same power, variety, and precision as a correct serve?
Wait did you actually survive brain trauma? God I feel so bad now
You can judge by several factors. Arc, movement after the bounce, sound of the racquet, and height are all factors.
No way those balls re bouncing over 5’. Get a ladder or some tall prop and make a vid. No way you can get it over 5’ with that technique unless you are hitting a lob serve- thats what I was alluding to with the pancake mixed doubles reference.
There is no noticeable kick off the court, either up or to the right. Kick serves bounce differently from what you expect. The trajectory in the air is like a slice serve but the ball grabs the court and accelerates in a different direction. Those serves you hit were basically flat serves with a touch of slice.
You also dont have the brushing sound at contact. On a kick its mostly spin and has a distinctive sound. You are hitting mostly flat but with some slice, kick serves will have a softer sound. Its not there in your vid
Another way to judge is the contact point. You simply are hitting the ball too far to the right to get anykind of top or gyro spin.
Here are some good examples of kick serves. Watch the bounce direction, bounce height, in air trajectory, contact point and listen for the sound. Your serve is nothing like the kick serves here.
Sadly I think you have lost all objectivity...
Not that it matters but yes.
Is that you hitting your kick serves?
Not that it matters but yes.
Not bad at your level. Same to my topspin serves too, at a 4.0 level.
Shroud's serve looks better than yours. Faster, more kick, more elegant. Why would anyone want to copy your serve?
3O (open stance, open grip and open wrist) is inheritably better hitting style than the 3C style. This is a proven phenomenon by now in forehand situation. I'm convinced that it will be proven in serve situation too, because it is all boiled down to math and physics. The differences between an overhead shot and a non-overhead shot doesn't change the equation because our wrist, elbow and shoulder are very flexible. This means that whatever can apply to forehand shots can also be applied to serve. One has to think hard on this point.
What prolonged the status quo in serve for so long, like a century or more? I think it's the pronation. Whoever invented the pronation concept and practice first was a genius. It somehow made players generation after generation believing that small muscle groups (around wrist, elbow, and shoulder) can beat the larger muscle groups down the body line. For sure, pronation and rapid wrist/elbow flexing can increase serve pace somewhat, but they are like a preemptive strike to deprive the larger muscle groups' full potential to drive the ball harder.
Time is the essence of the any tennis shot. Stronger shots always need the ball to stay as long as possible on the string bed. You must have seen elite players serve their racket out into the air in the effort to make the grip loose. Pronation and rapid wrist/elbow flexing make you grip the racket harder, making the kinetic chain on the whole arm rigid. A rigid wrist and arm let the ball bounce off the racket unnecessarily sooner, wasting big muscle groups' full potential. It's like winning a tactic battle but losing the war. Somehow the forehand evolution avoided this trap. Perhaps the westernizing of the grip and the opening of the stance happened a few decades ago, making pronation awkward for forehand.
Speaking about variety, there is no contest between 3O style serves and 3C style serves.
--------------Grip--------------Stance--------------------Hitting zone-----body stability
3O-----------#3 and #4------open and semi-open----wide--------------very stable
3C-----------#2----------------closed---------------------narrow-----------ok
Speaking about precision, it's a no brainer. Large hitting zone and better body stability make accuracy better. In the first part of my first video, there is a section of unedited serves of more than 10 shots, my serve percentage is pretty high.
Fools trust their thoughts and reject their eyes. The wise trust their eyes and reject their thoughts.
Impressive serves but I don't know if they are legal serves. In normal serves, the front foot is stationary throughout before the body take off. He moved front foot forward after the toss, that may become problematic (walking serve) in a formal match situation.
Brian's serves are totally legal. He has played multiple ATP events. Been discussed to death many times.
Even very few people gave thump up or wrote encourage comments, those very negative replies has reduced significantly.
to everyone else, please try and post for hilarious effect!To new posters or beginning tennis players reading this thread, try oserver's techniques at your own risk. I don't recommend them, and I don't know any serious coach or player who would.
gotta admit, that's a pretty advanced waiter tray serve. with enough practice, and obviously if the rest of your game is strong, it would be serviceable through 4.5Thank you Searah. Here are two videos I recorded on YouYube -
There was an earlier paper I wrote last year that explained the Forehand Serve in more detail. That time I called it in deferent names - the Wrist Extension Tennis Serve (WETS), Passive Arm Serve and so on -
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/open-tennis-serve-techniques-gary-lou/
if he can make this serve work...
Because people have been ignoring you, you vapid loser
"However you can't hit any real topspin with a forehand grip. " You may skipped the last few serves in my first video. You can watch it in slow motion mode to see the net clearances and bounce height. If they were not topspin shot, the balls won't land in, plus, those serves had some pace, not those high bounce but slow floating kickers. I was using my forehand (#4 grip) with open stance. The racket used was a old Ncode 90 (Federer's racket some 15 years ago).There are 3 aspects to a good serve: speed, spin and control. A forehand grip may help speed and control. Speed because the motion is very close to throwing and control because the racket motion is parallel to intended target.
However you can't hit any real topspin with a forehand grip. The videos shown above have a slice and sometimes back spin on them. Also your margin for error (going long or hitting the net) is very low. You are making a lot of faults for not having an opponent.
Topspin is king when it comes to the serve. The service box becomes very small under pressure.
"it would be serviceable through 4.5", what a compliment! Thank you. I'm only a 4.0 so I still have some hopegotta admit, that's a pretty advanced waiter tray serve. with enough practice, and obviously if the rest of your game is strong, it would be serviceable through 4.5
impossible to hit top, kick, or heavy curving slice... but with enough reps, placement, good enough for 4.5
So you disagree with the "good enough for 4.5" assessment?You cannot develope maximum pace with fry pan serve. Or open fry pan. Whatever the name. I'm sure it works for 4.0. A lot of 4.0 fry pan anyways.
does that earn me a 360 video? plz plz plz!"it would be serviceable through 4.5", what a compliment! Thank you. I'm only a 4.0 so I still have some hope.
lol, by "serviceable" meaning, if you don't double, and can get it to the weaker wing, regularly, it doesn't matter what technique you have...So you disagree with the "good enough for 4.5" assessment?
What level are you at? If you are 4.0 also, please post a serve video of you.
Don't insult the good name of Topspin Shot, thank you very much."However you can't hit any real topspin with a forehand grip. " You may skipped the last few serves in my first video. You can watch it in slow motion mode to see the net clearances and bounce height. If they were not topspin shot, the balls won't land in, plus, those serves had some pace, not those high bounce but slow floating kickers. I was using my forehand (#4 grip) with open stance. The racket used was a old Ncode 90 (Federer's racket some 15 years ago).
arguably that's a PRO...You cannot develope maximum pace with fry pan serve
does that earn me a 360 video? plz plz plz!
Yes, Sir. I'll do another 360 video soon. Mean while, anyone interested can watch that 180 degree turn serve at 2:46 (the first video). I made more than 270 degree turn if you count my right foot before I moved sideway to the base line (to form an open stance).
Fools trust their thoughts and reject their eyes. The wise trust their eyes and reject their thoughts.
"Argue with a fool and pretty soon no one will be able to tell the difference"
The real revaltion will be when the backhand tennis serve becomes a thing. A REAL thing.
The only time I've ever seen sub-optimal form taught as a concession to the intermediate player is Pat Dougherty "hammer that serve." He gives tips for modifying bad habits that are ingrained in club and rec players to get the most from those habits. Not rebuilding. Only time I've ever seen it on a video. Likely more club pros use similar kinds of band-aid fixes in person.There maybe two things in this comparison - is open stance serve better than the closed stance serve? If the answer is no, then is it a viable alternative? For my experiences, I definitely believe the open stance serve is better than the closed stance serve. Plus if it is followed by open grip and open wrist, a player's full serve potential can be all released. Everyone's preferences can be differ; I don't believe one size (or one kind) fit all dogma. That leads to the second question - is it a viable alternative? Definitely, it is simple to learn, fast to see results, plus the passive arm technique may save your tennis elbow for good.
The current teaching dogma for tennis serve is rigid - you have to use continental grip and pronation, or else ... period! No alternative. So, even if the "open stance serve" or the "Forehand Tennis Serve" is not better than the conventional tennis serve, if it can be a viable alternative, will it be a good thing?
The only time I've ever seen sub-optimal form taught as a concession to the intermediate player is Pat Dougherty "hammer that serve." He gives tips for modifying bad habits that are ingrained in club and rec players to get the most from those habits. Not rebuilding. Only time I've ever seen it on a video. Likely more club pros use similar kinds of band-aid fixes in person.
Frankly the video confused me because it was one of the first serve tutorials I hit upon when getting back to the sport after 20 years. Took me a minute to realize his audience, and that several sequences of the tutorial were not about high level serves (which I was hoping for).
I kept going through his other videos and the high-level serving tutorials and indeed I believe they are some of the best but that first one that I saw threw me a bit. I personally think he should get rid of that I don't think it really helps anyone. I don't know that it's a smart idea to teach people Concepts that are suboptimal for that very reason people may or may not know that they are!
Simple. The racquet head size has changed dramatically over the years,The forehand serve idea and practice do not distinguish between tennis beginners and professionals. It can be used by anyone. The 3Os of forehand serves are nice matchings of 3Os of forehand. The forehand serve method is not a patch for a particular weakness.
I asked a few times why forehand forms and techniques cannot be applied to serve. Is the reason being one is hitting high and another is hitting low?
A more profound question is this: why forehand evolved to a totally different stroke both form wise and techniques wise in recent decades, but the serve is still kept mostly traditional? This for sure is a more difficult question to answer, but trying to answer it certainly will help to being our brain power up for analyzing difficult problems.
Serves have been improved both pace wise and spin wise, like you said. But the forms - the stance and grip, plus the way to hit the serve, largely remained the same. On the other hand, all these forms and techniques in forehand changed significantly. Do you agree?Simple. The racquet head size has changed dramatically over the years,
As well as the materials. With a midsize stiff modern racket, modern strings, looser tensions, you can impart much more topspin on your groundstrokes than a 75 square inch wood frame with high tension from yesteryear. Enables a lot more contact surface for "brushing up" without framing (apologies for the imperfect cue). Therefore with better equipment FH form has evolved to bigger looped backswings (lendl, agassi) towards modern ATP fh (fed, joe kovic)
The traditional serve motion the frame goes relatively straight through the ball (flat) there is much less upward motion on the ball. Therefore the more optimal service technique evolved earlier. Guys in the 1970s were popping serves into the 120s or more (Tanner et al).
Yet still, contrary to your post, the serve did continue to evolve. Big kick serves have only developed more recently (80s) (edberg) and this is also in conjunction with the larger racquet head size.
So you're forgetting about the changes in technology through the years.
I agree that the groundstokes have evolved more than the serve in the past four decades and the primary reason is technology improvements. The improvements sparked groundstoke evolution far more than serve evolution (with exception the kicker).Serves have been improved both pace wise and spin wise, like you said. But the forms - the stance and grip, plus the way to hit the serve, largely remained the same. On the other hand, all these forms and techniques in forehand changed significantly. Do you agree?
A novelty for sure. When you see slo-mo the motion really not different than a traditional serve. Yet he adds the big jump and flight. Seems to me he took an established form and made it even more complex, less predictable and less replicable. Not best recipe. Wonder what MPHs? but no doubt consistency a major issue vs traditional. Did he leap on both serves?it looks like he played volleyball before playing tennis with the way he serves. its very volleyball esque
A novelty for sure. When you see slo-mo the motion really not different than a traditional serve. Yet he adds the big jump and flight. Seems to me he took an established form and made it even more complex, less predictable and less replicable. Not best recipe. Wonder what MPHs? but no doubt consistency a major issue vs traditional. Did he leap on both serves?
I agree that the groundstokes have evolved more than the serve in the past four decades and the primary reason is technology improvements. The improvements sparked groundstoke evolution far more than serve evolution (with exception the kicker).
However your implication that this somehow means there is more room for serve evolution does not follow.
There is less room. The serve had already evolved by the 60s and 70s to a very efficient effective form (serve merely being an extension of a 2 million year old hominid adaptation, the throw) incremental changes beyond that are smaller and smaller. Groundstrokes for tennis are a new movement pattern mostly, and not previously found much in hominid development. (Maybe clubbing enemies or animals? Pretty sure they were arming the hell out of the club back then, no lag at all. ) The main discussion we hear relating to the modern serve is the height of the server (servebots as they are affectionately known as). Another indicator the form has evolved...now it's about who has the physical traits to maximize that form. For serves height matters.
You claim to have a technique that beats 2 million years of natural selection? You get the tennis Darwin award.
Great point Chas. Compare these serves.
Groth and Kyrgious, not much post impact pronation.
Rafter, Lopez, "full" pronation.
So pat is abandoning two of the must do things in modern tennis serve dogmas - closed stance, pronation.
Not only that, but he starts his serve from the classic, sideways, platform stance, all coiled up. Of course, he does extreme uncoiling, partialy to alow better footwork to charge forward, for his serve and volley style.Rafter definitely pronates:
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