oserver

Professional
Do you honestly think this technique is capable of the same power, variety, and precision as a correct serve?

3O (open stance, open grip and open wrist) is inheritably better hitting style than the 3C style. This is a proven phenomenon by now in forehand situation. I'm convinced that it will be proven in serve situation too, because it is all boiled down to math and physics. The differences between an overhead shot and a non-overhead shot doesn't change the equation because our wrist, elbow and shoulder are very flexible. This means that whatever can apply to forehand shots can also be applied to serve. One has to think hard on this point.

What prolonged the status quo in serve for so long, like a century or more? I think it's the pronation. Whoever invented the pronation concept and practice first was a genius. It somehow made players generation after generation believing that small muscle groups (around wrist, elbow, and shoulder) can beat the larger muscle groups down the body line. For sure, pronation and rapid wrist/elbow flexing can increase serve pace somewhat, but they are like a preemptive strike to deprive the larger muscle groups' full potential to drive the ball harder.

Time is the essence of the any tennis shot. Stronger shots always need the ball to stay as long as possible on the string bed. You must have seen elite players serve their racket out into the air in the effort to make the grip loose. Pronation and rapid wrist/elbow flexing make you grip the racket harder, making the kinetic chain on the whole arm rigid. A rigid wrist and arm let the ball bounce off the racket unnecessarily sooner, wasting big muscle groups' full potential. It's like winning a tactic battle but losing the war. Somehow the forehand evolution avoided this trap. Perhaps the westernizing of the grip and the opening of the stance happened a few decades ago, making pronation awkward for forehand.

Speaking about variety, there is no contest between 3O style serves and 3C style serves.

--------------Grip--------------Stance--------------------Hitting zone-----body stability
3O-----------#3 and #4------open and semi-open----wide--------------very stable
3C-----------#2----------------closed---------------------narrow-----------ok

Speaking about precision, it's a no brainer. Large hitting zone and better body stability make accuracy better. In the first part of my first video, there is a section of unedited serves of more than 10 shots, my serve percentage is pretty high.
 
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oserver

Professional
You can judge by several factors. Arc, movement after the bounce, sound of the racquet, and height are all factors.

No way those balls re bouncing over 5’. Get a ladder or some tall prop and make a vid. No way you can get it over 5’ with that technique unless you are hitting a lob serve- thats what I was alluding to with the pancake mixed doubles reference.

There is no noticeable kick off the court, either up or to the right. Kick serves bounce differently from what you expect. The trajectory in the air is like a slice serve but the ball grabs the court and accelerates in a different direction. Those serves you hit were basically flat serves with a touch of slice.

You also dont have the brushing sound at contact. On a kick its mostly spin and has a distinctive sound. You are hitting mostly flat but with some slice, kick serves will have a softer sound. Its not there in your vid

Another way to judge is the contact point. You simply are hitting the ball too far to the right to get anykind of top or gyro spin.

Here are some good examples of kick serves. Watch the bounce direction, bounce height, in air trajectory, contact point and listen for the sound. Your serve is nothing like the kick serves here.

Sadly I think you have lost all objectivity...


Is that you hitting your kick serves?
 

oserver

Professional
Not that it matters but yes.

Not bad at your level. Same to my topspin serves too, at a 4.0 level.

The things matter more are not how high the net clearance is and how high the bounce is. You followed official line of instructions forms wise and techniques wise. I followed the exact opposite (open stance, open grip and open wrist) but can still produce similar or even better result, regardless the serves are flat first serve or topspin second serve. Many players and coaches won't believe it is possible (the first thing coaches like to correct is the grip to continental, the the stance to closed stances). I wrote before that the continental serve grip is just a myth, the closed stance too. These matter a lot more than the measurement of half foot high or low about the ball bounce.
 

oserver

Professional

Impressive serves but I don't know if they are legal serves. In normal serves, the front foot is stationary throughout before the body take off. He moved front foot forward after the toss, that may become problematic (walking serve) in a formal match situation.

Mostly, those serves are reverse sidespin serves, not typical topspin serves.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
3O (open stance, open grip and open wrist) is inheritably better hitting style than the 3C style. This is a proven phenomenon by now in forehand situation. I'm convinced that it will be proven in serve situation too, because it is all boiled down to math and physics. The differences between an overhead shot and a non-overhead shot doesn't change the equation because our wrist, elbow and shoulder are very flexible. This means that whatever can apply to forehand shots can also be applied to serve. One has to think hard on this point.

What prolonged the status quo in serve for so long, like a century or more? I think it's the pronation. Whoever invented the pronation concept and practice first was a genius. It somehow made players generation after generation believing that small muscle groups (around wrist, elbow, and shoulder) can beat the larger muscle groups down the body line. For sure, pronation and rapid wrist/elbow flexing can increase serve pace somewhat, but they are like a preemptive strike to deprive the larger muscle groups' full potential to drive the ball harder.

Time is the essence of the any tennis shot. Stronger shots always need the ball to stay as long as possible on the string bed. You must have seen elite players serve their racket out into the air in the effort to make the grip loose. Pronation and rapid wrist/elbow flexing make you grip the racket harder, making the kinetic chain on the whole arm rigid. A rigid wrist and arm let the ball bounce off the racket unnecessarily sooner, wasting big muscle groups' full potential. It's like winning a tactic battle but losing the war. Somehow the forehand evolution avoided this trap. Perhaps the westernizing of the grip and the opening of the stance happened a few decades ago, making pronation awkward for forehand.

Speaking about variety, there is no contest between 3O style serves and 3C style serves.

--------------Grip--------------Stance--------------------Hitting zone-----body stability
3O-----------#3 and #4------open and semi-open----wide--------------very stable
3C-----------#2----------------closed---------------------narrow-----------ok

Speaking about precision, it's a no brainer. Large hitting zone and better body stability make accuracy better. In the first part of my first video, there is a section of unedited serves of more than 10 shots, my serve percentage is pretty high.

Fools trust their thoughts and reject their eyes. The wise trust their eyes and reject their thoughts.
 

oserver

Professional
Fools trust their thoughts and reject their eyes. The wise trust their eyes and reject their thoughts.

Very philosophical! Agreed. That's why I used sound graphs to measure the timing of ball bounces to know the rough ball speed. Wish I had better equipments like a laser meter. You can see my improvised experiment data in the article "Open Tennis Serve Techniques" - a introduction of Wrist Extension Tennis Serve at LinkedIn site.
 

DNShade

Hall of Fame
Impressive serves but I don't know if they are legal serves. In normal serves, the front foot is stationary throughout before the body take off. He moved front foot forward after the toss, that may become problematic (walking serve) in a formal match situation.

Brian's serves are totally legal. He has played multiple ATP events. Been discussed to death many times.
 

oserver

Professional
Just a while ago, many posters on this forum regard the tennis serves using open stance and open grips (eastern forehand or semi-western grip) as beginner's serves, or just label the pancake/waiter's tray serves. Now I see a big change in that mentality. Even very few people gave thump up or wrote encourage comments, those very negative replies has reduced significantly. Admittedly, even my serves had improved compare to three, four years ago, or even before last summer, my serves are still 4.0 serves, not model serves for any legitimate showing. But in seeking improvement, one just need to beat your past, not anyone other than your older self. For viewers who had seen my older videos, you can judge this by yourself.

What's important? Those unorthodox forms and methods that made the improvement possible. This may break the myths of continental grip only and closed stance only official recommendations. This can free the mental stresses and impasses for many recreation players who have tried the "Correct" ways but have so far failed. Here are alternatives, in which you are not forced to change your current stance or grip to play better. For professional players, if you feel your serve has gone no where in six months or so, it doesn't hurt to give 3O serves a little try. You are comfortable with the 3O forehand already, so the 3O changes in serves are not a sea changes by any means.
 

willeric

Rookie
There are 3 aspects to a good serve: speed, spin and control. A forehand grip may help speed and control. Speed because the motion is very close to throwing and control because the racket motion is parallel to intended target.

However you can't hit any real topspin with a forehand grip. The videos shown above have a slice and sometimes back spin on them. Also your margin for error (going long or hitting the net) is very low. You are making a lot of faults for not having an opponent.

Topspin is king when it comes to the serve. The service box becomes very small under pressure.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Thank you Searah. Here are two videos I recorded on YouYube -



There was an earlier paper I wrote last year that explained the Forehand Serve in more detail. That time I called it in deferent names - the Wrist Extension Tennis Serve (WETS), Passive Arm Serve and so on -

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/open-tennis-serve-techniques-gary-lou/
gotta admit, that's a pretty advanced waiter tray serve. with enough practice, and obviously if the rest of your game is strong, it would be serviceable through 4.5
impossible to hit top, kick, or heavy curving slice... but with enough reps, placement, good enough for 4.5
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
if he can make this serve work...
folks can get oserver's technique to work....
in the end we study modern technique for it's efficiency, maximizing power sources... but anyone can get "bad" technique to work with enough reps.
that said, just gotta know the CONs of adopting oserver's "technique".
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
You cannot develope maximum pace with fry pan serve. Or open fry pan. Whatever the name. I'm sure it works for 4.0. A lot of 4.0 fry pan anyways.
 

oserver

Professional
Because people have been ignoring you, you vapid loser

Haha, it looks like you are one of the people not ignoring me;). Am I winning or losing?

These 3O serve things are out of the box now and cannot be put back into the bottle. I'd like to see nay sayings with some substances, not just throwing pancakes.
 

oserver

Professional
There are 3 aspects to a good serve: speed, spin and control. A forehand grip may help speed and control. Speed because the motion is very close to throwing and control because the racket motion is parallel to intended target.

However you can't hit any real topspin with a forehand grip. The videos shown above have a slice and sometimes back spin on them. Also your margin for error (going long or hitting the net) is very low. You are making a lot of faults for not having an opponent.

Topspin is king when it comes to the serve. The service box becomes very small under pressure.
"However you can't hit any real topspin with a forehand grip. " You may skipped the last few serves in my first video. You can watch it in slow motion mode to see the net clearances and bounce height. If they were not topspin shot, the balls won't land in, plus, those serves had some pace, not those high bounce but slow floating kickers. I was using my forehand (#4 grip) with open stance. The racket used was a old Ncode 90 (Federer's racket some 15 years ago).
 

oserver

Professional
gotta admit, that's a pretty advanced waiter tray serve. with enough practice, and obviously if the rest of your game is strong, it would be serviceable through 4.5
impossible to hit top, kick, or heavy curving slice... but with enough reps, placement, good enough for 4.5
"it would be serviceable through 4.5", what a compliment! Thank you. I'm only a 4.0 so I still have some hope:).
 

oserver

Professional
You cannot develope maximum pace with fry pan serve. Or open fry pan. Whatever the name. I'm sure it works for 4.0. A lot of 4.0 fry pan anyways.
So you disagree with the "good enough for 4.5" assessment?

What level are you at? If you are 4.0 also, please post a serve video of you.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
"it would be serviceable through 4.5", what a compliment! Thank you. I'm only a 4.0 so I still have some hope:).
does that earn me a 360 video? plz plz plz!
So you disagree with the "good enough for 4.5" assessment?

What level are you at? If you are 4.0 also, please post a serve video of you.
lol, by "serviceable" meaning, if you don't double, and can get it to the weaker wing, regularly, it doesn't matter what technique you have...
but it's gonna take alot more reps to get there... because you give up your ability to make alot of spin, thus giving up clearance over the net... therefore, your toss, contact, etc... better be VERY good...
but by no means am i endorsing this "technique"

also by "serviceable" i mean, i bet fed/nadal could be forced to hit UH, or dink serves, and still beat me 0,0, because they have "some other good attributes" going for them... but they wouldn't beat me because a UH, or dink serve is a "superior/viable serve technique"
 
"However you can't hit any real topspin with a forehand grip. " You may skipped the last few serves in my first video. You can watch it in slow motion mode to see the net clearances and bounce height. If they were not topspin shot, the balls won't land in, plus, those serves had some pace, not those high bounce but slow floating kickers. I was using my forehand (#4 grip) with open stance. The racket used was a old Ncode 90 (Federer's racket some 15 years ago).
Don't insult the good name of Topspin Shot, thank you very much. :cool:
 

bitcoinoperated

Hall of Fame
Yes, Sir. I'll do another 360 video soon. Mean while, anyone interested can watch that 180 degree turn serve at 2:46 (the first video). I made more than 270 degree turn if you count my right foot before I moved sideway to the base line (to form an open stance).

ns053vds5737839a66206286621196.gif
 

oserver

Professional
What happened? Did I touched some nerves with this Forehand Serve terminology or practices?

I thought this can be straight forward - use everything forehand to serve. Should be a no brainer for players who are pretty good at forehand already. Should be advantageous for new comers to get serve better, and at the same time, help one's forehand. One stone kills two birds...
 

oserver

Professional
Human body is a fantastic creation, especially the arms and hands beside the brain. Who else can do things like pronation, and so on and so forth. On the other hand, just because we are able to do something doesn't mean we have to keep doing it. Sometime we need to go to square one to figure things out. Fixation for something too hard, too long may not be good.
 

oserver

Professional
Pronation can be very good if we do it slowly, like what has been done in the modern forehand. The windshield wiper motion of modern forehand can be considered a big and slow pronation with a passive arm, unlike the smaller scale, fast and active version of the modern serves. So I'm not against pronation by one brush; I'm for it if it is done the forehand way.
 

oserver

Professional
The real revaltion will be when the backhand tennis serve becomes a thing. A REAL thing.

That can be fun, especially the two handed backhand serve. Too much athletic talent is needed for that one.

Who like to be the pioneer for that? Not me for sure:D!
 

coupergear

Professional
There maybe two things in this comparison - is open stance serve better than the closed stance serve? If the answer is no, then is it a viable alternative? For my experiences, I definitely believe the open stance serve is better than the closed stance serve. Plus if it is followed by open grip and open wrist, a player's full serve potential can be all released. Everyone's preferences can be differ; I don't believe one size (or one kind) fit all dogma. That leads to the second question - is it a viable alternative? Definitely, it is simple to learn, fast to see results, plus the passive arm technique may save your tennis elbow for good.

The current teaching dogma for tennis serve is rigid - you have to use continental grip and pronation, or else ... period! No alternative. So, even if the "open stance serve" or the "Forehand Tennis Serve" is not better than the conventional tennis serve, if it can be a viable alternative, will it be a good thing?
The only time I've ever seen sub-optimal form taught as a concession to the intermediate player is Pat Dougherty "hammer that serve." He gives tips for modifying bad habits that are ingrained in club and rec players to get the most from those habits. Not rebuilding. Only time I've ever seen it on a video. Likely more club pros use similar kinds of band-aid fixes in person.

Frankly the video confused me because it was one of the first serve tutorials I hit upon when getting back to the sport after 20 years. Took me a minute to realize his audience, and that several sequences of the tutorial were not about high level serves (which I was hoping for).
I kept going through his other videos and the high-level serving tutorials and indeed I believe they are some of the best but that first one that I saw threw me a bit. I personally think he should get rid of that I don't think it really helps anyone. I don't know that it's a smart idea to teach people Concepts that are suboptimal for that very reason people may or may not know that they are!
 

oserver

Professional
The only time I've ever seen sub-optimal form taught as a concession to the intermediate player is Pat Dougherty "hammer that serve." He gives tips for modifying bad habits that are ingrained in club and rec players to get the most from those habits. Not rebuilding. Only time I've ever seen it on a video. Likely more club pros use similar kinds of band-aid fixes in person.

Frankly the video confused me because it was one of the first serve tutorials I hit upon when getting back to the sport after 20 years. Took me a minute to realize his audience, and that several sequences of the tutorial were not about high level serves (which I was hoping for).
I kept going through his other videos and the high-level serving tutorials and indeed I believe they are some of the best but that first one that I saw threw me a bit. I personally think he should get rid of that I don't think it really helps anyone. I don't know that it's a smart idea to teach people Concepts that are suboptimal for that very reason people may or may not know that they are!

The forehand serve idea and practice do not distinguish between tennis beginners and professionals. It can be used by anyone. The 3Os of forehand serves are nice matchings of 3Os of forehand. The forehand serve method is not a patch for a particular weakness.

I asked a few times why forehand forms and techniques cannot be applied to serve. Is the reason being one is hitting high and another is hitting low?

A more profound question is this: why forehand evolved to a totally different stroke both form wise and techniques wise in recent decades, but the serve is still kept mostly traditional? This for sure is a more difficult question to answer, but trying to answer it certainly will help to being our brain power up for analyzing difficult problems.
 

coupergear

Professional
The forehand serve idea and practice do not distinguish between tennis beginners and professionals. It can be used by anyone. The 3Os of forehand serves are nice matchings of 3Os of forehand. The forehand serve method is not a patch for a particular weakness.

I asked a few times why forehand forms and techniques cannot be applied to serve. Is the reason being one is hitting high and another is hitting low?

A more profound question is this: why forehand evolved to a totally different stroke both form wise and techniques wise in recent decades, but the serve is still kept mostly traditional? This for sure is a more difficult question to answer, but trying to answer it certainly will help to being our brain power up for analyzing difficult problems.
Simple. The racquet head size has changed dramatically over the years,
As well as the materials. With a midsize stiff modern racket, modern strings, looser tensions, you can impart much more topspin on your groundstrokes than a 75 square inch wood frame with high tension from yesteryear. Enables a lot more contact surface for "brushing up" without framing (apologies for the imperfect cue). Therefore with better equipment FH form has evolved to bigger looped backswings (lendl, agassi) towards modern ATP fh (fed, joe kovic)

The traditional serve motion the frame goes relatively straight through the ball (flat) there is much less upward motion on the ball. Therefore the more optimal service technique evolved earlier. Guys in the 1970s were popping serves into the 120s or more (Tanner et al).

Yet still, contrary to your post, the serve did continue to evolve. Big kick serves have only developed more recently (80s) (edberg) and this is also in conjunction with the larger racquet head size.

So you're forgetting about the changes in technology through the years.
 
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oserver

Professional
Simple. The racquet head size has changed dramatically over the years,
As well as the materials. With a midsize stiff modern racket, modern strings, looser tensions, you can impart much more topspin on your groundstrokes than a 75 square inch wood frame with high tension from yesteryear. Enables a lot more contact surface for "brushing up" without framing (apologies for the imperfect cue). Therefore with better equipment FH form has evolved to bigger looped backswings (lendl, agassi) towards modern ATP fh (fed, joe kovic)

The traditional serve motion the frame goes relatively straight through the ball (flat) there is much less upward motion on the ball. Therefore the more optimal service technique evolved earlier. Guys in the 1970s were popping serves into the 120s or more (Tanner et al).

Yet still, contrary to your post, the serve did continue to evolve. Big kick serves have only developed more recently (80s) (edberg) and this is also in conjunction with the larger racquet head size.

So you're forgetting about the changes in technology through the years.
Serves have been improved both pace wise and spin wise, like you said. But the forms - the stance and grip, plus the way to hit the serve, largely remained the same. On the other hand, all these forms and techniques in forehand changed significantly. Do you agree?
 

coupergear

Professional
Serves have been improved both pace wise and spin wise, like you said. But the forms - the stance and grip, plus the way to hit the serve, largely remained the same. On the other hand, all these forms and techniques in forehand changed significantly. Do you agree?
I agree that the groundstokes have evolved more than the serve in the past four decades and the primary reason is technology improvements. The improvements sparked groundstoke evolution far more than serve evolution (with exception the kicker).

However your implication that this somehow means there is more room for serve evolution does not follow.

There is less room. The serve had already evolved by the 60s and 70s to a very efficient effective form (serve merely being an extension of a 2 million year old hominid adaptation, the throw) incremental changes beyond that are smaller and smaller. Groundstrokes for tennis are a new movement pattern mostly, and not previously found much in hominid development. (Maybe clubbing enemies or animals? Pretty sure they were arming the hell out of the club back then, no lag at all. ) The main discussion we hear relating to the modern serve is the height of the server (servebots as they are affectionately known as). Another indicator the form has evolved...now it's about who has the physical traits to maximize that form. For serves height matters.

You claim to have a technique that beats 2 million years of natural selection? You get the tennis Darwin award.
 
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coupergear

Professional
it looks like he played volleyball before playing tennis with the way he serves. its very volleyball esque
A novelty for sure. When you see slo-mo the motion really not different than a traditional serve. Yet he adds the big jump and flight. Seems to me he took an established form and made it even more complex, less predictable and less replicable. Not best recipe. Wonder what MPHs? but no doubt consistency a major issue vs traditional. Did he leap on both serves?
 

DarkMike

New User
A novelty for sure. When you see slo-mo the motion really not different than a traditional serve. Yet he adds the big jump and flight. Seems to me he took an established form and made it even more complex, less predictable and less replicable. Not best recipe. Wonder what MPHs? but no doubt consistency a major issue vs traditional. Did he leap on both serves?

i'm sure if he can go without tossing the racquet back into his dominant hand the consistency would go up. i only point out volleyball because of the fact that in a volleyball jump serve a lot of people are taught to toss the ball with their hitting hand, and a jump serve in volleyball the body is open and arched back during flight path just like how he does it.
 

oserver

Professional
I agree that the groundstokes have evolved more than the serve in the past four decades and the primary reason is technology improvements. The improvements sparked groundstoke evolution far more than serve evolution (with exception the kicker).

However your implication that this somehow means there is more room for serve evolution does not follow.

There is less room. The serve had already evolved by the 60s and 70s to a very efficient effective form (serve merely being an extension of a 2 million year old hominid adaptation, the throw) incremental changes beyond that are smaller and smaller. Groundstrokes for tennis are a new movement pattern mostly, and not previously found much in hominid development. (Maybe clubbing enemies or animals? Pretty sure they were arming the hell out of the club back then, no lag at all. ) The main discussion we hear relating to the modern serve is the height of the server (servebots as they are affectionately known as). Another indicator the form has evolved...now it's about who has the physical traits to maximize that form. For serves height matters.

You claim to have a technique that beats 2 million years of natural selection? You get the tennis Darwin award.

You have more knowledge in this area than most posters here. Glad to hear you voice and analysis.

One thing I don't agree is that old ways of doing things are always been replaced by new ways. In tech area, this is very apparent, and changes happen pretty fast (like an iPhone). In sport, changes happen slowly, sometimes gradually, sometime radically. The modern forehand was a radical change, from mostly 3C to mostly 3O. Then the human anatomy doesn't prohibit the application of 3O forehand to a 3O serve. I don't buy the argument of overhead vs. non-overhead that can rule out the application.

Just using the forehand passive arm/open wrist as the example. I believe this is new. It is different than the throwing arrow or stone in hunting, and differ than the baseball throwing. Those throwing activities, you have the fingers to hold the object (or tool); you have the control for the timing for the release. But in tennis, our fingers are not holding the ball; the ball bounce off the racket quickly or slowly depends on how you use your wrist, elbow, shoulder and lower body. The passive arm plus keeping the wrist at extension state at contact point are crucial for increasing the pace and spin. This way, the ball can stay longer on the string bed so the whole body has more time to drive the ball. The 3C serve model decreases this time. If we use the modern forehand model in serve, we are gaining the precious time back. I used sound graphs to measure the ball stay; it did show the differences between the 3C serves and 3O serves.
 

oserver

Professional
Great point Chas. Compare these serves.

Groth and Kyrgious, not much post impact pronation.



Rafter, Lopez, "full" pronation.




Above is a post from this interesting discussion about pronation. Any one catch some unusual ways of serves in this video of Pat Rafter?

All four elite servers don't follow the standard pronation almost every coach has been preaching (essentially abandoning pronation), but what caught my eyes was Pat's open stance serve (a little more than just a semi-open stance). So pat is abandoning two of the must do things in modern tennis serve dogmas - closed stance, pronation. If, a big if, Pad abandon the continental grip, then what we have - the forehand serve. Yes, forehand serve, form wise.

Pat Rafter

This is in addition to two other elite players' open stance serves I posted before -
Nikola Mektic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Xq7m3sagE

Viktor Troicki
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llcFOZMQ72Y
 
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BlueB

Legend
Rafter definitely pronates:
58baea_eb49df105c0044c8a672ed1f3b696666~mv2.jpg
Not only that, but he starts his serve from the classic, sideways, platform stance, all coiled up. Of course, he does extreme uncoiling, partialy to alow better footwork to charge forward, for his serve and volley style.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 
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