Forehand Tennis Serve
oserver
Professional
Open stance, open grip (weak semi-western grip: #3.5+ grip) serves from ad court.
Just want to show that we don't have to use continental grip, closed stance and fast pronation after the contact point to serve (triple tennis serve myths). Open stance, open grip (a weak semi-western grip - #3.5+ was used) can be equally effective.
Just want to show that we don't have to use continental grip, closed stance and fast pronation after the contact point to serve (triple tennis serve myths). Open stance, open grip (a weak semi-western grip - #3.5+ was used) can be equally effective.
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BevelDevil
Hall of Fame
Yeah, this was something I had to debate when my kid started playing. Most other kids at tennis camp where hitting "forehand/push" serves, which are much easier to learn. I taught him the traditional way and he's still struggling. I have him hit an underhanded second serve, and tell him to be patient with his serving development.
BlueB
Legend
oserver
Professional
Using forehand grip (open grips, grip # > 2) to serve has to match the open stance to. Not many coaches understand this concept and practice. It took me a while to figure this out. In making forehand strokes, we don't do the quick pronation, do we? So these three things (open stance, open grip, no pronation after contact point), have to line up in order to produce decent serves. Forehand serve means everything is the same as a forehand, including body rotation leads arm, not the other way around. The only difference is the height of the ball contact.
oserver
Professional
Yes, yes, yes, I have a new one
Let me know how the recent footages compare those made a few years ago. Plus, this video has something new - tennis without backhand, watch my two forehands on both right and left side, backhand kind of vaporized -
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sredna42
Hall of Fame
LIES! Since lockdown, I have been engaged in intense training, I shall try to upload the montage of it all, it is set to the song "eye of the tiger", and I too am beginning to unlock the 7 secrets of the Tiger's Serve. All energy is circular, and formless, which is why it is a huge mistake to dwell upon form. It is a red herring. I don't even have my eyes open when I serve now. I just imagine the flow of chi from the earth, through my body, focused by the spirit Tiger, and to the other side of the net for an ace.
BlueB
Legend
You never fail to entertain!Yes, yes, yes, I have a new one
360s are my favorite. I sometimes do it on my snowboard.
If you are ever in Vancouver BC, we should play few sets. I'd love to see all your theories live.
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oserver
Professional
Vancouver BC, nice place. I went there once and love to go there again.
If you do 360s on snow or ice, you know the feeling, the beauty of rotational move, the dopamine secretion effect, etc.. This is one of the reason we have ice skating, rhythmic gymnastic...
oserver
Professional
Watched USOpen lady's championship match yesterday. Here are some photos of Osaka's serve. I noticed her serves that deviated from the norm back in 2018. It look she has sticked to the unorthodox path -
2020 USOpen Osaka's semi-open stance serve photos
photos.app.goo.gl
2020 USOpen Osaka's forehand grip serve photos
2020 USOpen Osaka's semi-open stance serve photos
2020 USOpen Osaka's semi-open stance serve photos · Sep 12 – 15, 2020
Shared album · Tap to view!
photos.app.goo.gl
2020 USOpen Osaka's forehand grip serve photos
BlueB
Legend
All of these show the serve in progress, therefore the rear foot has left the ground already.Watched USOpen lady's championship match yesterday. Here are some photos of Osaka's serve. I noticed her serves that deviated from the norm back in 2018. It look she has sticked to the unorthodox path -
2020 USOpen Osaka's semi-open stance serve photos
2020 USOpen Osaka's semi-open stance serve photos · Sep 12 – 15, 2020
Shared album · Tap to view!
We really need to look onto the set below. Her starting position is actually super closed, almost like McEnroe used to do.
Look at the first pic, the very start of the serve. The racquet edge is pointing straight down, which is typical of Conti grip. If you focused on the hand position, the knuckle if the index finger is on the bevel corresponding to Conti.2020 USOpen Osaka's forehand grip serve photos
What probably confuses you is that it's not a hammer grip, therefore the other knuckles are not aligned along the same bevel, but diagonally.
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oserver
Professional
All photos say it all. No need to argue but you can trace her grip and stance changes back from 2018 matches.
oserver
Professional
BlueB
Legend
Very sure.
You are confused, or trying to mislead. Your yellow arrow lines up with the knuckle between intermediate and proximal phalanx. The red arrow lines up, roughly, with the middle of proximal phalanx and bevel #3. The knuckle between proximal phalanx and metacarpal is exactely where it should be for a proper serve - on, or close to, the bevel #2 "continental".
We actually need better pics then those blurry snapshots:
You can see the knuckle somwhere between #2 and #3 bevels, which is a " strong conti" or a "weak eastern" if you wish. Many pros use this grip for a flatter first serve, same as some might go more towards bevel #1 for more of a topspin serve.
One way or another, it's still a mod of conti grip.
You can see the grip well in this photo, too. The starting position of her feet is also clear - a very closed stance.
If you looked at her forehand grip, it seems to be a SW or strong SW (bevel #4, or slightly towards #5). Therefore, her serving grip is removed from her forehand by 70° to 90°.
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r2473
G.O.A.T.
What level do you play?
I think stuff like this can be good at certain levels. It's basically another form of pushing. All you're trying to do is get consistency. And it looks like you got it.
I bet you're a bit of a nightmare to play for some people aren't you?
bitcoinoperated
Hall of Fame
So a pancake serve?
r2473
G.O.A.T.
If I had to guess, I'd say he's probably slightly autistic. Something like "Tiime To Play Sets" and "Dgold".
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
oserver
Professional
Are you paid to post the ad? Check the TW forum rules!Pancake Serve is still hit sideways on.. This is an open stance pancake serve so you lose angular momentum from your shoulder turn - and the additional velocity from the shoulder rotation - end result a 70 mph serve.. There was one dude here who could pancake a 90+ MPH serve..
oserver
Professional
Very sure.
You are confused, or trying to mislead. Your yellow arrow lines up with the knuckle between intermediate and proximal phalanx. The red arrow lines up, roughly, with the middle of proximal phalanx and bevel #3. The knuckle between proximal phalanx and metacarpal is exactely where it should be for a proper serve - on, or close to, the bevel #2 "continental".
We actually need better pics then those blurry snapshots:
You can see the knuckle somwhere between #2 and #3 bevels, which is a " strong conti" or a "weak eastern" if you wish. Many pros use this grip for a flatter first serve, same as some might go more towards bevel #1 for more of a topspin serve.
One way or another, it's still a mod of conti grip.
You can see the grip well in this photo, too. The starting position of her feet is also clear - a very closed stance.
If you looked at her forehand grip, it seems to be a SW or strong SW (bevel #4, or slightly towards #5). Therefore, her serving grip is removed from her forehand by 70° to 90°.
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Osaka's serve grip details
Look at the three lines I added from your first photo! This serve grip is at least an eastern forehand grip, more likely a strong eastern toward semi-western.
Did you receive any training in grip analysis? Passed USPTA coaching certificate or other comparable coach credentials?
rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
One serve to rule them all. One serve to find them. One serve to bring them all and in Pomo bind them.
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rogerroger917
Hall of Fame
Its a conti grip you nut job. Lol. You are still mad we love pomo more than oserve.
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oserver
Professional
Osaka's serve grip details
Focus, focus
- is the serve using continental grip? Just say yes or noIf you are unable to focus, just look straight at her eyes!
oserver
Professional
USTA 4.0
Believe or not, if measured by the angular rotation around the body axis, this kind of serves rotates more than the conventional closed stance, closed grip (continental grip) serves. The conventional serves have more cartwheel rotation through.
I played twice with USTA 5.0C player in 4.5 plus league a few years ago (now, USTA won't allow a one full point difference between single payers anymore), while I was 4.0. I was able to hold a serve game each time using these kind of 3O serves - open stance, open grip, open wrist.
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BlueB
Legend
I don't know if trolling, or really delusional as others suggest...
Her knuckle is clearly on the ridge between bevels #2 and #3, meaning strong conti or weak eastern. I leave it to the other participants to judge...
As for the certification, be careful, they might revoke it from you [emoji2958]
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Slowtwitcher
Legend
Aren't you the twirling guy???
oserver
Professional
For what, posting some videos or photos very relevant to the topics? What country are we in?
oserver
Professional
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Slowtwitcher
Legend
r2473
G.O.A.T.
It looks like a good, reliable, consistent serve to me. I bet the "odd" delivery confuses some opponents and gives you an advantage early in a match, until they get used to it. Every advantage helps.
Honestly, I think lots of rec players would benefit from a pretty simple serve like this that delivers consistency rather than try to hit a serve like Federer. Never figuring it out, and faulting away tons of service games.
I like it. I'd never do it myself. But I like it. Nice job!!
I think you are confusing tennis with pickleball - you get two chances so most people want to develop a weapon.. Safe and reliable - that's the job of a topspin or topslice serve - something hard to do with a pancake grip..
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Most people want to be rich and marry a model.
Sometimes you're better off working for the government and marrying a woman that's not quite so high maintenance.
oserver
Professional
I think you are too simplistic to define a serve as pancake if the grip is bigger than continental (#2), like #3, #3.5 or #4. This March 2017 video had some serves using #3.5 grip. Are they pancakes?
Note that I was using single-handed forehand and single-handed backhand then, not anymore; and won't ever go back to it. Two-handed forehand and two-handed forehand style backhand is the holy grail for me now.
Open Tennis Serve Practice in Single, including 360 degree serves
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Nope, and I think the intent of the video was quite clear
.There's no way you can genuinely claim from the posted photos that she has a forehand grip, since none of the key checkpoints are visible ... are they? All the evidence I've seen (including photos posted in this thread by other members) and other YT videos, suggests she has some version of a continental, possibly the "Aussie grip" on first serves - something Serena also uses. There is no revelation here.
And there is no forehand grip in sight! 2020 AO Open Footage.
oserver
Professional
Note that I didn't say she changed completely to use semi-open grip or semi-stance to serve every ball. She mastered a range of options in terms of feet positions and hand grips. My analysis is focus on a single serve or serve photo, something maybe overlooked by people, even those TV commentators or experts. I studied and practiced alternative serves for more than 6 years now, so may have some unique perspectives. That's all.Nope, and I think the intent of the video was quite clear
There's no way you can genuinely claim from the posted photos that she has a forehand grip, since none of the key checkpoints are visible ... are they? All the evidence I've seen (including photos posted in this thread by other members) and other YT videos, suggests she has some version of a continental, possibly the "Aussie grip" on first serves - something Serena also uses. There is no revelation here.
And there is no forehand grip in sight! 2020 AO Open Footage.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
oserver
Professional
What? Were you implying that the two quotes of mine contradict to each other?
oserver
Professional
Only enough practice plus confidence can lead to variations. Osaka's serve power is not as good as Serena Williams, but variations definitely are plus for her overall game.
Osaka's closed & semi-open stance serve photos -
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BAE5cz91eJgfDo6j9
Osaka's closed & semi-open stance serve photos -
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BAE5cz91eJgfDo6j9
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
how did you rule out an errant toss? How did you rule out that its a special serve (probably a wide serve)? What percentage of the time did she do that serve?
oserver
Professional
I know; all you like to say is that she did it accidentally by having a bad toss or something else. Let's wait for more videos to come out to judge if it is by training or by accidentally occurrences.
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
well you are making claims and basing it on one serve. I would have thought you would have looked into it more and hope you understand that even at the pro level bad tosses happen and than can affect things. Certainly there is a vid you can point to?
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
I implied nothing.
Just watch the final and observe all occurrences of this footwork variation as a percentage of all serves. Note the serve, deuce or ad court, and toss placement.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Downloading now since it seems like this is backwards. I've watched various highlights from 2018, and at that time she was regularly using the corkscrew pinpoint (where the back foot steps past parallel, but never in front of the left foot) and much more recently she has gone to what seems to be the "preferred" technique, where the back leg steps directly behind and parallel to the front foot, enabling her to push with both legs. Seems like she has more pop these days too, based on the speed gun numbers I can recall during these highlights, but that needs to be confirmed and stance may not even be a contributor.
2018 US Open R4 versus Sabalenka.
2020 AO Open R3 versus Gauff.
Pause and frame advance. It's not hard to see.
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BlueB
Legend
There is no open stance here.
First of all, you are not showing the stance at all. Stance, by definition of it, is how you stand, not move or jump. For serve, that would be the starting position. All of your pics are serve in progress, therefore a motion, not a stance.
Second, as alredy noted, you are using ad court to illustrate closed and duce for "semi open". The stance and motion needs to be explained relative to intent - the direction where the ball needs to go, not relative to the base line.
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oserver
Professional
So you didn't see any differences in stance among the upper three photos and lower three photos? If there are some differences and the upper three photos show a more typical pin-point stance serve, then what do you like to call the serve stance show by the lower three photos? Wider pin-point stance? Weird pin-point stance? Odd pin-point stance?
Any tennis stance has two basic components - 1. the distance between the two feet 2. the angle formed by the baseline and the line formed by two feet. This feet line can be the heel line or toe line or any two useful points from two shoes. I think using the two toes at the time of taking off the grand is the better choice, otherwise we need to consider a third component - the initial orientation of each foot relative to baseline. This will make things muddy to define.
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