BlueB

Legend
So you didn't see any differences in stance among the upper three photos and lower three photos? If there are some differences and the upper three photos show a more typical pin-point stance serve, then what do you like to call the serve stance show by the lower three photos? Wider pin-point stance? Weird pin-point stance? Odd pin-point stance?

Any tennis stance has two basic components - 1. the distance between the two feet 2. the angle formed by the baseline and the line formed by two feet. This feet line can be the heel line or toe line or any two useful points from two shoes. I think using the two toes at the time of taking off the grand is the better choice, otherwise we need to consider a third component - the initial orientation of each foot relative to baseline. This will make things muddy to define.
You obviously didn't read, or understand, anything of what I said. Even more likely, purposley ignoring, so you can continue to push your agenda.
 

BlueB

Legend
I used two simple criteria to define the stance after finding your problematic description/understanding of what stance means in tennis.

What stance would you call for the serve in lower three photos -

Upper 3 is pin-point stance, what stance is the lower three?
There is no stance in those pictures, only serve motion in progress. I told you that already, but you seem to have comprehension problems, or just stubbornly pushing your agenda.

Osaka starts her serve in a platform stance, normaly closed.

DSC_8734.jpg

https%3A%2F%2Flobandsmash.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgetty-images%2F2017%2F07%2F1268356992-850x560.jpeg

800.jpeg

merlin_159798960_8144688a-1074-4bbf-b0d4-9d345e477787-superJumbo.jpg

osaka1000.jpg
 
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TennisDawg

Hall of Fame
You’re serve is very unorthodox but it’s a decent serve. At the recreational level I think it’s actually pretty good. I also don’t think that technique will revolutionize tennis. Instructors at the Junior level have no reason to change to that technique. It just won’t fly. But, it seems to work for you. If the rest of your game is decent, I think you can get good results at the recreational level where the majority of us have to accept our limitations.
 

oserver

Professional
There is no stance in those pictures, only serve motion in progress. I told you that already, but you seem to have comprehension problems, or just stubbornly pushing your agenda.

Osaka starts her serve in a platform stance, normaly closed.

DSC_8734.jpg

https%3A%2F%2Flobandsmash.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgetty-images%2F2017%2F07%2F1268356992-850x560.jpeg

800.jpeg

merlin_159798960_8144688a-1074-4bbf-b0d4-9d345e477787-superJumbo.jpg

osaka1000.jpg
These are weird photo-pickings/argument I've ever seen. Are you saying her serve stances are all platform? So what's the differences between a platform and pin-point stance?

What's the most precise timing to define a serve stance, or a forehand/backhand stance? Can you use the time when she got a ball from ball boy....??
 

oserver

Professional
You’re serve is very unorthodox but it’s a decent serve. At the recreational level I think it’s actually pretty good. I also don’t think that technique will revolutionize tennis. Instructors at the Junior level have no reason to change to that technique. It just won’t fly. But, it seems to work for you. If the rest of your game is decent, I think you can get good results at the recreational level where the majority of us have to accept our limitations.
I started the thread of this unorthodox serve style for a change.

Totally agree with you that a lot of recreational players would benefit from these - no need to rapid pronate, no need to use continental grip to serve then change to forehand grip, super-relaxed arm and no need of fast flexing of the wrist, etc. I don't have tennis elbow problem anymore, a benefit from these kinds of open style serves and using two hand to hit both wings the forehand style. Plus I can use longer rackets 28-29' to hit harder and cover court better.
 

BlueB

Legend
These are weird photo-pickings/argument I've ever seen. Are you saying her serve stances are all platform? So what's the differences between a platform and pin-point stance?

What's the most precise timing to define a serve stance, or a forehand/backhand stance? Can you use the time when she got a ball from ball boy....??
If anyone is photo picking, it's you. You pulled frames from videos that suite your agenda.
It's pretty simple and you know it. When one is about to toss, or at the beginning of the toss, is the stance - before the feet have started moving. Stance means how you STAND, not how you move.
Same as a groundstroke, the stance is a ready to hit feet position, when you moved to the hitting position, possibly taken the racguet back, but before you started loading into the shot.
 

oserver

Professional
If anyone is photo picking, it's you. You pulled frames from videos that suite your agenda.
It's pretty simple and you know it. When one is about to toss, or at the beginning of the toss, is the stance - before the feet have started moving. Stance means how you STAND, not how you move.
Same as a groundstroke, the stance is a ready to hit feet position, when you moved to the hitting position, possibly taken the racguet back, but before you started loading into the shot.
Are you a tennis coach of any sort?

If what you said is true, then why we distinguish the platform and pin-point stances, assuming the initial back foot positions are the same?

Pin-point stance has a very short distance between two feet at take off (the back foot moving toward the front foot to load), while in platform stance, the two feet are wider apart initially and then the back foot moves closer to the front foot before leap off the ground !

Understand now?

Upper 3 is pin-point stance, what stance is the lower three?
 

oserver

Professional
Borrow you photos to prove another point I made. Osaka definitely were not using typical continental grip for those serves.

And the stances in all three photos are not her serve stances, but her stance at ready position, just like a ready position stance in ground stroke is not the same as the actual stance used (including in hitting for any stroke).
 
Borrow you photos to prove another point I made. Osaka definitely were not using typical continental grip for those serves.

And the stances in all three photos are not her serve stances, but her stance at ready position, just like a ready position stance in ground stroke is not the same as the actual stance used (including in hitting for any stroke).

Aren't you the twirling guy?
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
When one is about to toss, or at the beginning of the toss, is the stance - before the feet have started moving. Stance means how you STAND, not how you move.
This is a debatable topic for sure, but your definition is one that I've never seen before regarding the serve, both on here and in the coaching community in general.
Citation or source needed, since traditionally the definition of a pinpoint stance is MOVING the back foot up.

The reason I think the bold text above is wrong, is because that would make Serena and Isner platform servers, and I've never seen them referred to as such.

 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Borrow you photos to prove another point I made. Osaka definitely were not using typical continental grip for those serves.

And the stances in all three photos are not her serve stances, but her stance at ready position, just like a ready position stance in ground stroke is not the same as the actual stance used (including in hitting for any stroke).
You've been shown clear evidence from the AO 2020 and the US Open 2020 with photos where she definitely IS using a form of continental (various posters have done this for you). That would probably be something worth addressing if you were serious about this claim, but instead you go find some images that demonstrate absolutely nothing about her grip, since there is no key checkpoint to reference (not for the first time). That's not just cherry picking, but rather an attempt at deceiving the gullible.
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
These are weird photo-pickings/argument I've ever seen. Are you saying her serve stances are all platform? So what's the differences between a platform and pin-point stance?

What's the most precise timing to define a serve stance, or a forehand/backhand stance? Can you use the time when she got a ball from ball boy....??
Photos show that serve begins as platform (closed with feet apart). Very clear from the photos.
 

oserver

Professional
Photos show that serve begins as platform (closed with feet apart). Very clear from the photos.
"Photos show that serve begins as platform (closed with feet apart)." Ok, you said begins...! Is there an ending stance. If it has an ending stance or final stance before leaping off the grand, what it is?

If the beginning stance is the same as the ending (or final) stance, then there is no need to have a term - pin-point stance, period!
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stance

Definition of stance

1 chiefly Scotland
a: STATION
b: SITE

2
a: a way of standing or being placed : POSTURE
b: intellectual or emotional attitudetook an antiwar stance

3
a: the position of the feet of a golfer or batter preparatory to making a swing
b: the position of both body and feet from which an athlete starts or operates
Sure, I guess I should have been clearer since I know how to use a dictionary. I was after a source for your usage of "platform stance" as it relates to the tennis serve, since definitions and usage are contextual. For instance, how would you differentiate Serena Williams and John Isner (where the back foot moves) from Federer or Raonic. Given your own earlier usage, wouldn't you have to classify all of those servers I listed as platform?
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
"Photos show that serve begins as platform (closed with feet apart)." Ok, you said begins...! Is there an ending stance. If it has an ending stance or final stance before leaping off the grand, what it is?

If the beginning stance is the same as the ending (or final) stance, then there is no need to have a term - pin-point stance, period!
There is no "stance" once action begins. That movement is just that, movement. Here's an easy way to understand this.
In martial arts, one will take a "ready stance" or "fighting stance". They may then move through motions of kicking/punching/blocking/etc. They are not "kicking stancing". Stance is not action, it is. OT a verb, there is no "-ing" associated with it. The stance is the beginning of something, before the action.
Don't confuse someone sliding their rear foot into a pinpoint stance before the serve as the serve. It is not.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Don't confuse someone sliding their rear foot into a pinpoint stance before the serve as the serve. It is not.
o_O It sure is a component, or part of the serve. Unless you don't think the toss counts as part of the service motion either, in which I will disagree.
Consider this: using the countdown clock on the pro tour, the clock stops counting down when the player enters the beginning of his or her service motion (that is before the toss and well before any foot sliding). So the rules of the professional game consider everything that follows from that point (until they hit the ball) a part of the service motion.

Edit: All this talk of stances is actually irrelevant to @oserver's point, because he doesn't have one!
 
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zipplock

Hall of Fame
o_O It sure is a component, or part of the serve. Unless you don't think the toss counts as part of the service motion either, in which I will disagree.
Consider this: using the countdown clock on the pro tour, the clock stops counting down when the player enters the beginning of his or her service motion (that is before the toss and well before any foot sliding). So the rules of the professional game consider everything that follows from that point (until they hit the ball) a part of the service motion.

Edit: All this talk of stances is actually irrelevant to @oserver's point, because he doesn't have one!
If a person cannot understand that "stance" means the position of the feet BEFORE the service motion begins, then there is nothing more to say. That level of intelligence is right up there with someone who cannot understand that water is wet.
 

oserver

Professional
If a person cannot understand that "stance" means the position of the feet BEFORE the service motion begins, then there is nothing more to say. That level of intelligence is right up there with someone who cannot understand that water is wet.
Why making things more complex than necessary? In tennis platform stance, the beginning stance is the same as the ending stance, since both feet don't change positions from ready state to load state (stance at leaping off the ground). But in pin-point stance, from ready stance, the back foot moves closer to the front foot at load state, roughly along the line of the two feet. So only the stance at loading state counts for any kind of serve.
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
Why making things more complex than necessary? In tennis platform stance, the beginning stance is the same as the ending stance, since both feet don't change positions from ready state to load state (stance at leaping off the ground). But in pin-point stance, from ready stance, the back foot moves closer to the front foot at load state, roughly along the line of the two feet. So only the stance at loading state counts for any kind of serve.
Water is wet.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
If a person cannot understand that "stance" means the position of the feet BEFORE the service motion begins, then there is nothing more to say. That level of intelligence is right up there with someone who cannot understand that water is wet.
Taking into consideration the bolded text, can you define a pinpoint stance and how it is different to the platform? Should be pretty easy given water is wet.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Feet apart is platform, together is pinpoint.
OK, so everyone I've ever seen considers Isner pinpoint (his feet end up together but he moves his back foot after the serve begins). So according to this:
"If a person cannot understand that "stance" means the position of the feet BEFORE the service motion begins"
that would make him platform, since he starts with the feet apart, right?

Salzenstein's definition "it becomes a pinpoint stance when the back foot moves up at any point in the motion". You think he is wrong?
 

oserver

Professional
OK, so everyone I've ever seen considers Isner pinpoint (his feet end up together but he moves his back foot after the serve begins). So according to this:
"If a person cannot understand that "stance" means the position of the feet BEFORE the service motion begins"
that would make him platform, since he starts with the feet apart, right?

Salzenstein's definition "it becomes a pinpoint stance when the back foot moves up at any point in the motion". You think he is wrong?
If a person cannot understand that "stance" means the position of the feet BEFORE the service motion begins

This statement is just plain wrong. Are you quoted it from a Bible or some sort of heavenly scripts?
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
OK, so everyone I've ever seen considers Isner pinpoint (his feet end up together but he moves his back foot after the serve begins). So according to this:
"If a person cannot understand that "stance" means the position of the feet BEFORE the service motion begins"
that would make him platform, since he starts with the feet apart, right?

Salzenstein's definition "it becomes a pinpoint stance when the back foot moves up at any point in the motion". You think he is wrong?
Yes, because I understand English. Eisner begins with a platform stance, THEN begins his service motion which includes dragging his foot. Again, the STANCE is the position of the feet BEFORE the service motion begins. Whatever his feet do AFTER the service motion is not his stance, rather part of his service motion. If Isner established his feet together BEFORE the service motion began (Monfils used to do this), then that would be called a pinpoint stance. I'm sorry you cannot understand that water is wet.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Yes, because I understand English.
But very little about the concept of language, how it changes and evolves, and the fact that words develop meanings based on usage and not just dictionary definitions.

You can classify Isner, the Williams sisters, Karlovic, Lopez and all those who step up as platform, and I'll continue to be "wrong" like almost everyone else and call them pinpoint.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
@oserver, did you discover that Osaka has moved away from the corkscrew (where the back foot steps past the front), and to the currently preferred pinpoint method, where the back foot steps directly behind the front?
 
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zipplock

Hall of Fame
But very little about the concept of language, how it changes and evolves, and the fact that words develop meanings based on usage and not just dictionary definitions.

You can classify Isner, the Williams sisters, Karlovic, Lopez and all those who step up as platform, and I'll continue to be "wrong" like almost everyone else and call them pinpoint.
At least you admit you're wrong... Just to be clear, wrong means to be incorrect or untrue, in case you thought wrong actually means something else ...
 

oserver

Professional
@oserver, did you discover that Osaka has moved away from the corkscrew (where the back foot steps past the front), and to the currently preferred pinpoint method, where the back foot steps directly behind the front?
As I posted, Osaka demonstrated that she can do wider range of stances and grips too in her serve. I wrote an article about open stance serve back in April, 2014 that provided more detailed analysis about open stance serve variations -

Open Stance Tennis Serve Variations
 

oserver

Professional
I can't believe it's been over two years and you guys are still falling for this drivel

If one has a chance to ask what Osaka would think about this topic, I suspect that she has lots to say, since she must spend a lot of hours to master wider range of serve stances and serve grips than most of her pears.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
lol this thread

the 360 groundstrokes video really caps it off, though
Tips & Instruction >>>>> General Pro Player Discussion
If one has a chance to ask what Osaka would think about this topic, I suspect that she has lots to say, since she must spend a lot of hours to master wider range of serve stances and serve grips than most of her pears.
I have a feeling it'll boil down to "if I'm not getting as much spin during a match I'd move my grip over a little bit, and if I'm not getting as much angle, then I'd maybe turn a bit more to the side"

At no point do I think she'll say "yeah, when traditional serves don't work I whip out my Tefal skillet leaded up to Le Creuset specs and swat that mother like it owed me money"
 
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