Forehand tips i wished i knew earlier

[Jaferd]

First is to not focus too much on using core and kinetic energy. I used to rotate my core/shoulder to fling and propel the racket forward without using too much arm action and it would always deccelerate by the time racket hit the ball. The racket won't release until after hitting. I think the core/shoulder turn is important but the last chain in the kinetic chain is the forearm pronation and instead of a passive pronation, most of the energy should be used to pronate the forearm which drives the racket forward, closes and face and release into the followthrough. It's all about rhs and you need active pronation to give you that high rhs. Don't use the arm and flexion of the forearm to drive the racket. Use active pronation. Keep wrist loose but not extended throughout the swing like a ww. The wrist should be in flexion at end of followthrough. I believe this is how Fed and Nadal do their forehand.

Second is to aim and hit outside of the ball for most shots. This will force you to release into the ball.

Third is to hit ball more to right of you if right handed. This forces you to rotate the body more. Pointing the left arm to the side fence will also force you to do a good unit turn.

Last is to set and be balanced in position before hitting, if time allows for it.

I actually do a little flick before I start pronating the forearm like a whip but not sure if necessary.

This is my way of hitting a fh and there are other ways and techniques may vary.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Third is to hit ball more to right of you if right handed. This forces you to rotate the body more. Pointing the left arm to the side fence will also force you to do a good unit turn.

Those are my big pointers that changed my FH the most.

 

[ZanderGoga]

These "tips" are terrible. If you're actively working to pronate your forearm, you are destroying both the energy you can deliver to your shot, and your body. This is not even close to "how Fed and Nadal do their forehand." And far worse, the advice is dangerous.

Ignoring the rest of the tips for the moment, any "advice" so bad that it actively harms people taking it, both physically and in terms of play, should be deleted by mods instantly. And this is as bad as it gets.

 

[Jaferd]

These "tips" are terrible. If you're actively working to pronate your forearm, you are destroying both the energy you can deliver to your shot, and your body. This is not even close to "how Fed and Nadal do their forehand." And far worse, the advice is dangerous.

Ignoring the rest of the tips for the moment, any "advice" so bad that it actively harms people taking it, both physically and in terms of play, should be deleted by mods instantly. And this is as bad as it gets.

Sorry you disagree but rhs is important to generate pace and spin and it's mostly done by the small fast muscles in the arm, not the core. The forearm pronation at the end of kinetic chain is how you finally deliver the energy from feet/core to produce the fast rhs. Pros always pronate their forearm, some more than others and that's how a racket is also released into the shot. Why do you think Fed has such a large forehand compared to his left. If you do a wta style forehand, you can definitely swing with your core/rotation only and do passive pronation so this is more of an atp style forehand tip. Also, I'm not saying that you simply pronate the forearm only, which is arming the ball. You can also exert minimally with the pronation but it should be actively done.

 

[HitMoreBHs]

These "tips" are terrible. If you're actively working to pronate your forearm, you are destroying both the energy you can deliver to your shot, and your body. This is not even close to "how Fed and Nadal do their forehand." And far worse, the advice is dangerous.

Ignoring the rest of the tips for the moment, any "advice" so bad that it actively harms people taking it, both physically and in terms of play, should be deleted by mods instantly. And this is as bad as it gets.

Would you accept the compromise that this is about a full, well timed release through impact? Some players have their legs and trunk rotation so far ahead of their forearm component of the kinetic chain that they either release too late or worse still, never quite release through properly ie: excessive lag. (In golf, this is a common downswing error and typically manifests as a blocked shot out into the right side junk). In such situations, it can be helpful to get a player to focus more on the forearm release so that it doesn’t end up lagging so far behind.

The manner of how one communicates this “tip” is obviously subjective. I wouldn’t describe things the way @Jaferd did, but I recognise the concept just fine.

 

[Dragy]

@Jaferd check this out: if you look carefully at Fed’s arm configuration on the second frame, and maybe experiment in front of the mirror, you notice his forearm is supinated, while his upper arm is internally rotated, marked by elbow pointing to the side:

 

[Slowtwitcher]

These "tips" are terrible. If you're actively working to pronate your forearm, you are destroying both the energy you can deliver to your shot, and your body. This is not even close to "how Fed and Nadal do their forehand." And far worse, the advice is dangerous.

Ignoring the rest of the tips for the moment, any "advice" so bad that it actively harms people taking it, both physically and in terms of play, should be deleted by mods instantly. And this is as bad as it gets.

Sit back down and be quiet.

 

[Jaferd]

@Jaferd check this out: if you look carefully at Fed’s arm configuration on the second frame, and maybe experiment in front of the mirror, you notice his forearm is supinated, while his upper arm is internally rotated, marked by elbow pointing to the side:

When the arm and racket begin it's forward movement after the take backs, the forearm supinates automatically and there's also external shoulder rotation. When I start the pronation, there is an initial internal shoulder rotation that concludes with forearm pronation into the ball. I find that only doing internal shoulder rotation without pronation of the forearm just brushes the ball with more miss hits and lacks drive.

 

[GuyClinch]

When the arm and racket begin it's forward movement after the take backs, the forearm supinates automatically and there's also external shoulder rotation. When I start the pronation, there is an initial internal shoulder rotation that concludes with forearm pronation into the ball. I find that only doing internal shoulder rotation without pronation of the forearm just brushes the ball with more miss hits and lacks drive.

So internal shoulder rotation is rotation of the whole arm along the long axis - and forearm pronation is just along the same axis - but just the forearm right? You feel you get the best results when you separate these motions out? Interesting.. I pretty much think of the windshield wiper bit and concentrate on that instead of breaking the two movements down..

Not saying you are wrong or anything.. I just didn't know some player divided it out to that level..

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Sorry you disagree but rhs is important to generate pace and spin and it's mostly done by the small fast muscles in the arm, not the core.

I've always been taught that relying on the small muscles is a great way to get TE/GE and it's why one sees so many rec players with elbow braces but no pros.

 

[J011yroger]

Sorry, did I miss the video of the OP's forehand?

J

 

[Jaferd]

I've always been taught that relying on the small muscles is a great way to get TE/GE and it's why one sees so many rec players with elbow braces but no pros.

I'm sure pros get them also but they're better conditioned. Even if you don't actively pronate, you can still get te/ge due to the stretching of the tendons. Plus, there's active pronation when serving as well as when one throws a baseball or football.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Sorry, did I miss the video of the OP's forehand?

J

I think he used @travlerajm's camera.

 

[Curious]

What’s the discussion about?
Whether pronation happens actively or passively?

 

[Raul_SJ]

aim and hit outside of the ball

What on earth does this mean.


Explain yourself clearly. Don't be vague.

 

[Jaferd]

That's part of the discussion. That pronation is actively done.

Outside of the ball means not hitting the ball at the rear precisely but just to the right of it for a right hander. Imagine a clock dial laying flat with 12 pointing toward the front and 6 to the back. You would try to hit at 5, 5:30 ish from the bottom for a top spin. Same idea for back hand. It doesn't have to be for a CC ball. The path of the racket face is not linear but curved so it's ideal to come across the ball from right to left direction. If the racket face has a linear path when striking the ball, then it wouldn't make sense to hit the outside of the ball.

 

[PilotPete]

all tips are wrong here.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

That's part of the discussion. That pronation is actively done.

Outside of the ball means not hitting the ball at the rear precisely but just to the right of it for a right hander. Imagine a clock dial laying flat with 12 pointing toward the front and 6 to the back. You would try to hit at 5, 5:30 ish from the bottom for a top spin. Same idea for back hand. It doesn't have to be for a CC ball. The path of the racket face is not linear but curved so it's ideal to come across the ball from right to left direction. If the racket face has a linear path when striking the ball, then it wouldn't make sense to hit the outside of the ball.

So you're saying to hit the ball such that the contact point will send the ball back to where it came from? That's what I'm envisioning with the 5:30 position.

But what if I want to hit DTM or DTL?

 

[ChaelAZ]

At my age, don't they have a blue pill to help with pronation now?

 

[Jaferd]

So you're saying to hit the ball such that the contact point will send the ball back to where it came from? That's what I'm envisioning with the 5:30 position.

But what if I want to hit DTM or DTL?

It doesn't have to be hitting it back CC. You still direct the ball where you want it to go, CC, straight, or inside out, but you strike the ball just outside of center, i.e. 5:30. More so for CC. For an inside out that spins out wide, hitting the inside of the ball is ideal, about 630-7 position.
Again, hitting the outside of the ball is for top spin forehands. For flat forehands, I presume it would be less important but I'm not sure.

 

[sredna42]

Forehand tips I wish I'd known earlier

I still don't know how to hit one properly after all these years even

 

[sredna42]

What’s the discussion about?
Whether pronation happens actively or passively?

aliens. the pyramids. ghosts. the flip. no one knows or can come to an agreement on whether it exists still

 

[HitMoreBHs]

aim and hit outside of the ball for most shots

What on earth does this mean.


Explain yourself clearly. Don't be vague.

You can’t hit the inside of the ball. Don’t overanalyse, it is what it is.

 

[HitMoreBHs]

At my age, don't they have a blue pill to help with pronation now?

Indeed, but not the tennis variety.

 

[Curious]

How does Fognini flip/whip/snap it??
Is there active pronation or not?
I can confidently say that there’s passive supination at the beginning of the forward swing but what happens after that?

 

[Raul_SJ]

So you're saying to hit the ball such that the contact point will send the ball back to where it came from? That's what I'm envisioning with the 5:30 position.

But what if I want to hit DTM or DTL?

He says his tip does not relate to directional control and that is fine.
But the problem with these kind of tips is that there are people who say hit the "inside" of the ball for topspin or whatever.

You can’t hit the inside of the ball. Don’t overanalyse, it is what it is.

Can't hit the inside. Can't hit the outside. We always think of hitting the ball square on.

 

[curly_2350]

Sorry, did I miss the video of the OP's forehand?

But that wouldn’t help us pointlessly argue semantics and minutiae at all.

 

[vex]

Just drag the racket strings up the ball. I’d start there.

also, I’d tell people to stop honing your FH if it’s at least functional and only come back to it after you can hit overheads and volleys

 

[Bender]

At my age, don't they have a blue pill to help with pronation now?

You mean the little blue pill?

 

[socallefty]

Can someone please explain what the difference is between ‘active pronation’ and ‘passive pronation’? I googled it and didn’t find anything useful to help me understand this. I know what pronation and supination mean, but have no idea how to do it actively or passively. Without finding any biomechanics or tennis research papers using these terms, it seems like these are made-up TTW forum concepts.

 

[Dragy]

When the arm and racket begin it's forward movement after the take backs, the forearm supinates automatically and there's also external shoulder rotation. When I start the pronation, there is an initial internal shoulder rotation that concludes with forearm pronation into the ball. I find that only doing internal shoulder rotation without pronation of the forearm just brushes the ball with more miss hits and lacks drive.

Wait, have you done what I suggested? Examined and experimented with Fed’s arm configuration captured on that image? That one illustrates there’s no pronation by the moment ball is ~30ms gone. Forearm is still supinated. Meanwhile, there’s noticeable ISR happening.
If you rely on pronation predominantly, that’s either misunderstanding or an issue, in my opinion.

 

[Jaferd]

Wait, have you done what I suggested? Examined and experimented with Fed’s arm configuration captured on that image? That one illustrates there’s no pronation by the moment ball is ~30ms gone. Forearm is still supinated. Meanwhile, there’s noticeable ISR happening.
If you rely on pronation predominantly, that’s either misunderstanding or an issue, in my opinion.

Sorry but I do see that the forearm has pronated between those two shots. There is also some isr but not as much as the pronation. One way to tell is that in the first pic, the racket and the elbow are both pointing roughly in the same direction. In the second pic, they are pointing almost in the opposite direction. If strictly isr and no pronation is happening, they would still point in the same direction. However, these pics and even videos still do not proof that pronation is active or passive, i.e. with strength and intention or without.

 

[Jaferd]

I'm not sure how accurate this is but if you look at around 1:16 mark, you will notice that the ulna and radius cross each other before the ball is struck. This is due to pronation of the forearm.

 

[Dragy]

In the second pic, they are pointing almost in the opposite direction.

Lol ok

 

[Raul_SJ]

@Jaferd check this out: if you look carefully at Fed’s arm configuration on the second frame, and maybe experiment in front of the mirror, you notice his forearm is supinated, while his upper arm is internally rotated, marked by elbow pointing to the side:

Frame 1 --> Frame 2.
It looks like the forearm has moved from a supinated position to a less supinated position (i.e. moving towards the pronation direction).

Forearm is still supinated.

The forearm is in a supinated position (beyond neutral) in Frame #2? Not clearly seeing this. It looks to be at least several degrees past neutral and into pronation, or at the most, neutral.

 

[Jaferd]

Lol ok

Wow. You really can't see that the elbow and racket are both pointing down and after contact, the elbow is still mostly down though less so but the racket is in the opposite direction?!

 

[Jaferd]

Frame 1 --> Frame 2.
It looks like the forearm has moved from a supinated position to a pronated position.



The forearm is in a supinated position (beyond neutral) in Frame #2? Not clearly seeing this. It looks to be in a neutral or pronated position.

In this diagram. Supination is palm up, pronation is palm down. First pic shows palm up, hence racket pointing down and then palm facing down in the second pic. The forearm goes from supine position to a printed position after contact and into follow through.

 

[Raul_SJ]

In this diagram. Supination is palm up, pronation is palm down. First pic shows palm up, hence racket pointing down and then palm facing down in the second pic. The forearm goes from supine position to a printed position after contact and into follow through.

Yes, it is clear that the forearm is in a supinated position in the first pic and has pronated by the second pic (i.e. moved towards the pronation direction to some extent -- lets leave aside if it has gone beyond neutral).

Not sure what the dispute is.

 

[Dragy]

Frame 1 --> Frame 2.
It looks like the forearm has moved from a supinated position to a less supinated position (i.e. moving towards the pronation direction).



The forearm is in a supinated position (beyond neutral) in Frame #2? Not clearly seeing this. It looks to be at least several degrees past neutral and into pronation, or at the most, neutral.

You need to try it yourself. Make extensor muscles apper on top of the forearm like Roger, and see where wrist will be if it was neutral, supinated, pronated. Better with a racquet or something to hold.

If to get more tennis-practical, you shouldn't of course try to hold supinated position - it will take care of itself. You even shouldn't execute ISR with direct control: just aiming for that Roger's position - with arm extended forward, racquet head rotated over the hand - will do the job of engaging proper muscles. Forearm better kept relatively relaxed, letting bigger muscles bear the load.

 

[Raul_SJ]

You need to try it yourself. Make extensor muscles apper on top of the forearm like Roger, and see where wrist will be if it was neutral, supinated, pronated. Better with a racquet or something to hold.

If to get more tennis-practical, you shouldn't of course try to hold supinated position - it will take care of itself. You even shouldn't execute ISR with direct control: just aiming for that Roger's position - with arm extended forward, racquet head rotated over the hand - will do the job of engaging proper muscles. Forearm better kept relatively relaxed, letting bigger muscles bear the load.

Will try this... You are saying that 30 ms after contact, the forearm has still not gone beyond neutral, it is still in a supinated position.

That one illustrates there’s no pronation by the moment ball is ~30ms gone. Forearm is still supinated.

 

[cortado]

This obsession with wind-shield-wiper, pronation/supination whatever is bizarre. When you do it right those things happen without any conscious attempt to do them.

 

[Dragy]

When you do it right

Could you elaborate, what exactly should be done right? I mean, you have a guy who doesn't do things right. How you make him develop WW pronation supination bizzare monstrous FH? Do you have a working methodology?

 

[Slowtwitcher]

It's tiring to see the Federer FH being brought up over and over, a FH that literally nobody else hits (Nadal is the closest but different grip). Not even Dimitrov hits Federer's FH! At the same time, a ton of pros hit the same FH (Djokovic, Wawrinka before and now Sinner, Musetti, Alcaraz, etc).

But by all means, let's keep discussing a FH that nobody else hits.

 

[Curious]

It's tiring to see the Federer FH being brought up over and over, a FH that literally nobody else hits (Nadal is the closest but different grip). Not even Dimitrov hits Federer's FH! At the same time, a ton of pros hit the same FH (Djokovic, Wawrinka before and now Sinner, Musetti, Alcaraz, etc).

But by all means, let's keep discussing a FH that nobody else hits.

Don’t they all pronate like Federer?

 

[Dragy]

Wow. You really can't see that the elbow and racket are both pointing down and after contact, the elbow is still mostly down though less so but the racket is in the opposite direction?!

I'm actually sorry for dropping the style, wasn't my intension to try to ridicule you.

If you agree to step back from discussing pronation and to look at the fact that arm rotates in a fashion that RH is moving from below the hand to above the hand approaching contact - there is no arguement. It's crucial element of good topspin drive.
I'd also suggest that you experiment not only with earlier "release" and hitting outside of the ball - which is perfect to lift and spin the ball, as well as to direct it more CC, or curving inward on DTL shots... But also with delaying "release" aiming for inside of the ball - execution suitable for easier penetration, I/O targeting and making the ball curve outward on those I/O shots, as well as staying inside the lines on I/I drives. Discovering benefits of "outisde track" is great, exploring opposite action makes picture complete

 

[blablavla]

I'm sure pros get them also but they're better conditioned. Even if you don't actively pronate, you can still get te/ge due to the stretching of the tendons. Plus, there's active pronation when serving as well as when one throws a baseball or football.

1. pros do it for the money, plus they work all their life on fitness conditioning

2. what's in it for me, as an amateur to work deliberately on a technique that will result in te/ge?

3. why shouldn't I rather practice a technique that will allow me enjoy this sport without te/ge?

 

[blablavla]

It's tiring to see the Federer FH being brought up over and over, a FH that literally nobody else hits (Nadal is the closest but different grip). Not even Dimitrov hits Federer's FH! At the same time, a ton of pros hit the same FH (Djokovic, Wawrinka before and now Sinner, Musetti, Alcaraz, etc).

But by all means, let's keep discussing a FH that nobody else hits.

what about Srsh forkhand?

 

[J011yroger]

I'm actually sorry for dropping the style, wasn't my intension to try to ridicule you.

If you agree to step back from discussing pronation and to look at the fact that arm rotates in a fashion that RH is moving from below the hand to above the hand approaching contact - there is no arguement. It's crucial element of good topspin drive.
I'd also suggest that you experiment not only with earlier "release" and hitting outside of the ball - which is perfect to lift and spin the ball, as well as to direct it more CC, or curving inward on DTL shots... But also with delaying "release" aiming for inside of the ball - execution suitable for easier penetration, I/O targeting and making the ball curve outward on those I/O shots, as well as staying inside the lines on I/I drives. Discovering benefits of "outisde track" is great, exploring opposite action makes picture complete

Timing of the release is the same on I/O, I/I and CC. If you delayed the release, the ball would go long.

J

 

[Dragy]

It's tiring to see the Federer FH being brought up over and over, a FH that literally nobody else hits (Nadal is the closest but different grip). Not even Dimitrov hits Federer's FH! At the same time, a ton of pros hit the same FH (Djokovic, Wawrinka before and now Sinner, Musetti, Alcaraz, etc).

But by all means, let's keep discussing a FH that nobody else hits.

My pleasure:

 

[Slowtwitcher]

My pleasure:

Post frame 3 and 4, please.