Dragy
Legend
I get what you mean and fully agree. Maybe we could agree on altering "shape" of release? What I was referring to - kind of this type of contact difference:
Forehand tips i wished i knew earlier
- Thread starter Jaferd
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Dragy
Legend
These were 50ms pre and past contact... You are interested in follow-through, deceleration?
Slowtwitcher
Legend
If during the follow-through elbow goes up and wrist goes down, then ISR was happening through contact.
Dragy
Legend
Agree, and actually even here we can see how elbow was down, if not slightly forward, before contact, and started pointing more to the side after contact. And during such short period it's ok to not see 90+ degree of rotation - the fact that it's present is most important.
(and forearm stays supinated, as far as my judgement goes)
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Thanks for the video though, really great quality.
EDIT: go to the FH at 2:36 and you'll see what I'm talking about.
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J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I get what you mean and fully agree. Maybe we could agree on altering "shape" of release? What I was referring to - kind of this type of contact difference:
Man, you can say whatever you want, this is the internet.
J
Dragy
Legend
Well I usually try to want to say something I have foundation behind. So I wonder if I can pull something from your criticism of my wording - to find flaws in concepts I accept, or to develop better wording to communicate them.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Check if Nadal buggy-whipped the forehand where he's later on contact. He does that a lot. You need to compare exhibits where the player has hit both CC and IO out in front with a normal follow through. FWIW I agree that Jolly that the timing can't be later on IO. The stroke feels different because you need more footwork just to line up the IO and also because the ball is usually coming into you when you are going IO (whereas it's getting away from you on the CC/DTL).I get what you mean and fully agree. Maybe we could agree on altering "shape" of release? What I was referring to - kind of this type of contact difference:
5263
G.O.A.T.
I'd say that it is actively suspended just prior to contact as to " set the blade" for the nature of the contact intended. I believe that this active rotation during contact will hurt consistent execution in the mistaken effort for power.
5263
G.O.A.T.
yes, there is some pronation in leaving the drag position, but comparing the position of the arm dragging to the position after contact Imo does not address the issues here.My pleasure:
Dragy
Legend
Yes, sure, the latter contact is with buggy-whip finish. That finish is a consequence of using particular swing shape and “release” timing, actually.
The first image is also not “default” shot - it’s “faded” much more to make the ball go to the left and spin that way also.
I intentionally picked two shots on the opposite poles of the spectrum. Rafa is good at using them: his DTL bananas as well as I/O screamers are well know. And there’s a range in-between, with moderate degree of “draw/fade” action.
Now the question is, how mechanically you achieve either? What you do to keep wrist more laid back as you push hand forward? What you do to make racquet head come around more and “hook” the ball to a degree? Timing seems to be right tool here.
And yes, you can play without this stuff by aligning same cookie-cutter stroke from CC to I/O. The question is whether such approach is ultimate or optimal?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
The point I was trying to make was that Nadal goes buggy whip when the ball is somewhat getting big on him. So naturally the contact point would be later. But if you are aiming for a regular forehand on the IO, you will need an earlier contact point (similar to CC). A good example here could be, well, Federer. Doesn't look like he lets himself get late on the IO.
Dragy
Legend
There must be some misunderstanding. I never claimed that I/O shot should be hit late. Although it’s a widespread idea to hit earlier for CC, let the ball sink more for DTL or I/O.
What I was trying to put up is timing of release: at what instance coming towards contact racquet head may be released from being dragged in lag position. If you do it sooner, racquet pivots more, wrist gets closer to neutral position by contact. If you hold/delay the release and rotate torso/push hand forward up till very close to the ball, contact happens with racquet still laid back to significant degree.
Discussing early/late contact point is practical to some agenda, not so much for the other. For example, you may play against a high deep backspin shot, where the ball literally bounces in place, with either well-in-front contact or more to-the-side contact, driving it or buggy-whipping it... it’s not whether you are late or pushed back, but where you put yourself, intentionally or not.
Now with the one same setup and basically same swing timing and shape you can hit different shots by using different “release” option, for example, any of these trajectories:
Dragy
Legend
With regard to Roger in the vid, he seems to be doing exactly what I described: check how much away from the target his torso is rotated, with wrist still "lagged", right before contact, particularly angling a shorter ball inside the court:
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Hmm, that is something that is much harder to define so I try not to define it at all. I simply maintain thumb rule that I need to make contact out in front by the same amount as my non hitting arm is in front of me. And accordingly adjust the release depending on how much time I am getting. I mean, it's dynamic. Sometimes you get all the time in the world to line up the shot and sometimes you are pressed. If you asked me whether the timing of release is the same or different for CC or IO, I can't define that. I only think of where I need contact and adjust everything else according to it, including, of course, footwork and speed of movement.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Unless you are a member of the forehand disability support group like me and @sredna42 , in which case these things only happen in practice against weaker players when no one else is watching.
Dragy
Legend
That’s legit, and actually the ability to adjust till quite close before contact is a great feature - not getting locked and loaded to then see odd bounce, or net person shifting position to poach...
However, I found it rather helpful to gradually develop some awareness, starting with just noticing whether I hit more hooking the ball or fading it. Then I moved to using on not only forced, as part of adjustment, but intensionally - to find sharper CC angle, to find opponent’s BH, or to attack high deep ball with more authority.
Shoutout to @5263 for making me dive into it after couple of years of denial
Ok. Seems like I opened a can of worms. As the OP, let me address few issues and try to bring the discussion back a little. @Dragy, no worries. I've always found your posts informative and we are all here to learn and improve our games. As to disagreements among us, let us remember that there are millions of ways to hit a FH as millions of people play each day and each with his/her own style and they all work mostly. 
Little background. I played tennis as a child but was never good enough to be on the HS team. After a 30 year hiatus, I started playing again but had to relearn the FH. No more continental traditional swing but a more modern ATP style FH. Youtube videos and TT pundits would advise you to use the core/shoulder rotation and the arm and racket will do the rest by itself. I must have taken it too literally cause it didn't look right and was not working well. After years of trying different things and lessons, these tips are what I have discovered that helped me the most.
While it is important to start the swing and kinetic chain from the ground up, the active movement of the arm/forearm is the last link in the KC. The racket needs to accelerate into the ball. The acceleration can't happen too early cause it will decelerate at contact if so. This is what would happen when I throw my upper extremity into the shot by core rotation without using any arm muscles. The racket needs to release into the shot also, not after contact. I start with usual unit turn, trying to set up to contact the ball more to the right and in front to ensure good turn of shoulder/core, then after feet, legs, core, shoulder, I start the forward movement of the upper arm using pecs, etc and some isr but building up energy to finally release into the forearm by pronation. The wrist stays loose and the racket will fling forward, release and close at contact. @Curious, yes the pronation is an active movement I'm doing. In your video, you're a little too stiff. I would pronate the forearm even more than in your video. Your wrist is too rigid also. The wrist should be slightly flexed and radially deviated at the end of the followthrough. While the forearm will naturally and passively pronate if you flex the elbow with your swing, I find that it doesn't release as well and often late, especially if you really swing hard and fast, the racket would not come around until way past contact. My pros will say the same thing. you must pronate and accelerate the racket to get that high RHS. I believe all pros do active pronation but Fed and Nadal look different because they have a straighter arm. This is why they grunt. They are exerting energy in swinging the racket with the upper extremity but instead of flexing the elbow, they are using isr and more importantly pronation of the forearm to drive and accelerate the racket. It's easier to rotate the forearm than to flex it.
I try to focus on hitting the outside of the fall for all shots, except when trying to hit inside for inside out forehand as @Dragy recommends, because it forces me to keep my eye on the ball and the racket will also release into it more consistently.
Lastly, to decide whether the forearm is pronated or supinated, it's best to look at the relationship between the wrist and the antecubital fossa, the front of the elbow. if they are facing the same plane, basically palm facing forward or up, then it's fully supinated. If they are 90 degrees off, then it's neutral. if they are facing the opposite plane and almost 160ish degrees off,palm down or back, then it's fully pronated. The Proximal forearm muscle don't move much so cant really tell by looking at that.
Hope I didn't make the can of worms bigger and I'm not here to claim that this is the right and only way of hitting a FH but just what I've found to help. I dont post videos of myself and I dont play usta because I lost vision in one eye so dont ask what USTA level I am. Cheers and keep on playing. Sorry for long post.
Little background. I played tennis as a child but was never good enough to be on the HS team. After a 30 year hiatus, I started playing again but had to relearn the FH. No more continental traditional swing but a more modern ATP style FH. Youtube videos and TT pundits would advise you to use the core/shoulder rotation and the arm and racket will do the rest by itself. I must have taken it too literally cause it didn't look right and was not working well. After years of trying different things and lessons, these tips are what I have discovered that helped me the most.
While it is important to start the swing and kinetic chain from the ground up, the active movement of the arm/forearm is the last link in the KC. The racket needs to accelerate into the ball. The acceleration can't happen too early cause it will decelerate at contact if so. This is what would happen when I throw my upper extremity into the shot by core rotation without using any arm muscles. The racket needs to release into the shot also, not after contact. I start with usual unit turn, trying to set up to contact the ball more to the right and in front to ensure good turn of shoulder/core, then after feet, legs, core, shoulder, I start the forward movement of the upper arm using pecs, etc and some isr but building up energy to finally release into the forearm by pronation. The wrist stays loose and the racket will fling forward, release and close at contact. @Curious, yes the pronation is an active movement I'm doing. In your video, you're a little too stiff. I would pronate the forearm even more than in your video. Your wrist is too rigid also. The wrist should be slightly flexed and radially deviated at the end of the followthrough. While the forearm will naturally and passively pronate if you flex the elbow with your swing, I find that it doesn't release as well and often late, especially if you really swing hard and fast, the racket would not come around until way past contact. My pros will say the same thing. you must pronate and accelerate the racket to get that high RHS. I believe all pros do active pronation but Fed and Nadal look different because they have a straighter arm. This is why they grunt. They are exerting energy in swinging the racket with the upper extremity but instead of flexing the elbow, they are using isr and more importantly pronation of the forearm to drive and accelerate the racket. It's easier to rotate the forearm than to flex it.
I try to focus on hitting the outside of the fall for all shots, except when trying to hit inside for inside out forehand as @Dragy recommends, because it forces me to keep my eye on the ball and the racket will also release into it more consistently.
Lastly, to decide whether the forearm is pronated or supinated, it's best to look at the relationship between the wrist and the antecubital fossa, the front of the elbow. if they are facing the same plane, basically palm facing forward or up, then it's fully supinated. If they are 90 degrees off, then it's neutral. if they are facing the opposite plane and almost 160ish degrees off,palm down or back, then it's fully pronated. The Proximal forearm muscle don't move much so cant really tell by looking at that.
Hope I didn't make the can of worms bigger and I'm not here to claim that this is the right and only way of hitting a FH but just what I've found to help. I dont post videos of myself and I dont play usta because I lost vision in one eye so dont ask what USTA level I am. Cheers and keep on playing. Sorry for long post.
Dragy
Legend
Why you believe pronation is more important? Muscles are weaker, while rotation axis for straight arm is same for ISR and pronation. Just a single reason, why?
What regards to pros, many of them call arm rotation "pronation" not bothering to distinguish it from ISR. And that may be legit right until the moment they say it to more erudite student who interprets it literally and begins abusing his forearm...
The pronation muscles are not big but rotation is easier to do than flexing and moving a racket with flexion. Try it yourself. Prob with isr is that it's more limited range of motion and also you're not utilizing the energy in the last chain of KC. It also more effective at accelerating the racket. When you try to rotate, you will have some isr automatically. Then you just do isr, the forearm do not actively pronate and you lose out on that energy.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
So you are saying that adequate spacing and left arm pointing out to the side fence are bad tips?
Dragy
Legend
It doesn't move much to mark pronation/supination - it does to mark ISR.
They are facing up on pre-contact image of Roger, and they are completely out of sight, facing mostly inward on post-contact image of Roger. So within the timespan of 30ms pre/post contact all arm rotates at the same rate as wrist, which depicts the fact that there's no significant change of supinated forearm position until further into follow-through.
Observe the mighty ISR
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
If the forearm pronates actively that will do nothing for power on the FH. It will merely close the face of the racket.
Now if you actively flex the wrist prior to contact, that will promote power at the expense of control as you slap at the ball.
Dragy
Legend
If you try to engage 2 groups of muscles to work in same direction simultaneously, they both have to overcome the torque of the other. When you execute dead lift you keep your arms straight - don't try to bend the elbows. If you tried to, you'd need to reverse the big back muscles and glutes contraction. Same here, forearm cannot exert power for pronation on par with ISR. When you go slow, you can do both. When you ramp up intensity, to maximize ISR power output you need to keep forearm stable - supinated - not rely on weaker forearm muscles to resist the torque while channeling it towards the racquet rotation. You can only efficiently pass momentum to pronation when ISR is done, but the range is so short from drag to contact in release phase that there's no reason - ISR provides all you need.
Is the pics with the arrows, the face of the racket mirrors the wrist plane because he's using a eastern/semi ws grip. You notice that the wrist and the antecubital fossa( the arrow) pointing in the same direction. That's supinated. In the last shot, the racket face and wrist plane, is about 90 degrees apart, i.e. more neutral going toward pronation.It doesn't move much to mark pronation/supination - it does to mark ISR.
They are facing up on pre-contact image of Roger, and they are completely out of sight, facing mostly inward on post-contact image of Roger. So within the timespan of 30ms pre/post contact all arm rotates at the same rate as wrist, which depicts the fact that there's no significant change of supinated forearm position until further into follow-through.
Observe the mighty ISR
I've done isr but it's almost impossible to do isr without forearm pronation if arm is straight. What happens is that the racket face just rolls over the ball, like brushing it and no has no bite and power. Timing is also difficult with more miss-hits. That's just my experience.
Dragy
Legend
Pick a racquet, hold with eastern grip. Put wrist into extension. Return to neutral. Does the stringbed look towards same direction? With extended wrist put forearm into supination/pronation. Does the strinbed orientation change?
What you noticed has more to do with wrist release from full extension towards neutral position, not with supination/pronation.
Dragy
Legend
Slower you swing, harder to do ISR without pronation... and absolutely not required! Faster your swing - higher the contribution of racquet head inertia stretching forearm into supination while arm is basically swung forward, and while it's being internally rotated.
Actually nothing to beat ourselves around. Arm rotation is very evident on the GIF I posted - even if you wipe out the racquet, biceps orientation makes it clear. May some pronation happen as well somewhere coming into contact? Yes, I think so. Should we try to pronate the forearm with force? I'm in strong opposition!
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
It doesn't move much to mark pronation/supination - it does to mark ISR.
They are facing up on pre-contact image of Roger, and they are completely out of sight, facing mostly inward on post-contact image of Roger. So within the timespan of 30ms pre/post contact all arm rotates at the same rate as wrist, which depicts the fact that there's no significant change of supinated forearm position until further into follow-through.
Observe the mighty ISR
That gif is a thing of beauty.
J
Dragy
Legend
Yeah, that man, you know, is...
Slowtwitcher
Legend
I'm enjoying this thread... what was the question again?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
All I know is, I shank a lot more topspin forehands trying to hit crosscourt than I do trying to hit down the line.That’s legit, and actually the ability to adjust till quite close before contact is a great feature - not getting locked and loaded to then see odd bounce, or net person shifting position to poach...
However, I found it rather helpful to gradually develop some awareness, starting with just noticing whether I hit more hooking the ball or fading it. Then I moved to using on not only forced, as part of adjustment, but intensionally - to find sharper CC angle, to find opponent’s BH, or to attack high deep ball with more authority.
Shoutout to @5263 for making me dive into it after couple of years of denial
Try hitting the outside of the ball even with DTL shot.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I actually now have doubts about the active pronation that I showed in my video. There’s a good chance that most of the action/effort Fognini puts into the swing is up to the stage shown in the video below. The rest is just the continuation of the momentum that he creates with this initial phase explosive motion. There may not be any more active muscle contractions from that point on.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Lately I'd say you missed a lot!
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
While I generally agree with your first paragraph and for me (some of) the advice didn't resonate, I cannot agree with the second. Just like you, the OPer is entitled to their opinion and in all fairness they were trying to be helpful. Maybe instead, if it can be proven the advice is dangerous, then a health warning should be attached (I'd be all for that).
But before you go seeking intervention from mods, you might want to consider the possibility that one day someone on here will be calling for some of your posts - or even your account - to be deleted because they think you are giving terrible advice on a particular topic. If you want to make your case then the best way to do that is by pointing out the risks to those reading with evidence, linking to studies showing why it might be dangerous to actively pronate as an example. Imo that will work better than just calling for instant removal.
I always thought ideas were to be shared, both the good AND the bad, since that tends to promote discussion and aids in the learning process. And in general I give most people enough credit to decide for themselves who they will and won't listen to based on the information presented, but that's just me.
+1.
EDIT: I found the following (knew I'd seen it a while back) and it discusses pronation on the forehand, and imo I think he gets it right (the entire video is worth a quick look but I've timestamped the relevant section @ 2:28).
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Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Hah, now you're just being ridiculous!Even cute girls strolling on (his @J011yroger ) tennis courts? I find that hard to believe
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I was just a tad worried for him, tha's all
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
True enough, but when it's not being done right, certain cues might be required to help fix the issue. Here is a good example of a forehand that's missing some elements:
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
you missed the key ingredient to internet glory: training at the STC
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Did you notice they ignored you?
If the long time players here were honest about their games, most would come to realize that, while fun to work on those small improvements you see in slow motion, even if they had been able to exactly replicate them all they would still have had the about the same amount of progression in NTRP. For me, while I have improve strokes in the last 10 years, it is funny for me to look back and read (and know) the various things that I thought I could improve and level up, but really haven't overall. So many other factors (and age/time) really are an amazing counter puncher to nuance progress. I think having worked with high school kids and juniors, and watching them compete with just the above rudimentary skills (not in a way that might skyrocket them to greatness, but at level play) has helped me understand some of that. Even more so observing recreational play at tournaments and championships. Probably a lot of others and coaches around already knew it.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
This is very dark ... I don't want to hear such logical nonsense ever again.
You were obligated to develop pretty strokes to help balance out all of the rec DIY. It also protected you from ttw video review.
I want to make clear that it's not all about active pronation to generate power and nothing else. Core/shoulder rotation and kinetic chain is still the key but I'm just saying that instead of thinking the arm and racket will just swing around, accelerate and release on it's own will automatically happen is not true. You still need to put energy into the swing with your arm and that's when I continue with internal shoulder rotation followed and continue with pronation. No wrist involvement. So yes, I do isr but I also have some active pronation. We're kind of on the same page but I just add pronation into the equation.
Happy hitting.
Seems legit. I always thought on an angled dipper there is a lot of ISR - I never really heard of the wrist pronation bit be something you have to actively think about though..
