Forehand variations in semi-western grip

[Ali Abdullah]

This might be the first time someone has asked this question but im trying to be very accurate here. From what I understand, on a semi-western grip, the heel pad and index knuckle rest on the 4th bevel of the racket. Now there can be 3 variations in this:

1- Heel pad and index knuckle are IN LINE with eachother on the 4th bevel.

2- Index knuckle is closer to the 3rd bevel and heel pad is closer to the 5th bevel but they still both rest on the same bevel. (means index knuckle is heel pad on 4th bevel, not in the same line)

3- Index knucle is closer to the 5th bevel and heel pad is closer to the 3rd bevel. Opposite to point 2.

Now especially with variation 2 and variation 3, I get a totally different feel on my forehand. I think no one uses variation 1, it feels ackward.

What I want to ask is, what variation do pros use and which one is preffered?

 

[Giannis]

I might misunderstand your description, but variation 2 seems to be achieved by using an extreme pistol grip, while variation 3 by using an extreme hammer grip. Either way, variation 1 is the most natural for me.

 

[red rook]

This is a good question and oddly enough one I have thought about too. Would like to hear from others.

 

[TTMR]

This is a good question and oddly enough one I have thought about too. Would like to hear from others.

Yes I have considered this as well. I think it actually depends on the shape of one's hands, which vary quite a bit from person to person (be wary of this when a coach advises you to change how you hold the racquet). For example, some people have longer fingers and shorter palms, or contrarily, shorter fingers and longer palms.

Before I quit playing, I used variation 2. In the past, I tried to 'convert' to variation 1, but discovered I would need a very large grip, or a lot of overgrips to be comfortable because of the size and shape of my hand.

 

[Ali Abdullah]

So im not the only one who is pondering upon this question.

Can some expert give a detailed response on this issue?

 

[tennis_pr0]

the pad on your hand, under your pinkie finger is what we are using as a reference. bevel 3 is eastern, in between 3 and 4 is semi western, bebel 4 is western, anything over bevel 4 is extreme western.

 

[Ali Abdullah]

the pad on your hand, under your pinkie finger is what we are using as a reference. bevel 3 is eastern, in between 3 and 4 is semi western, bebel 4 is western, anything over bevel 4 is extreme western.

Maybe you did not understand my question or I did not understand your answer.

If the heel pad is in between 3 and 4, where is the index knuckle?

 

[TTMR]

the pad on your hand, under your pinkie finger is what we are using as a reference. bevel 3 is eastern, in between 3 and 4 is semi western, bebel 4 is western, anything over bevel 4 is extreme western.

Maybe in the 80s this was the terminology. Nowadays 3 is eastern, 4 semiwestern, 5 western. Many players grip on the fifth bevel and it is not considered extreme (eg. Roddick, Djokovic).

 

[Limpinhitter]

Maybe in the 80s this was the terminology. Nowadays 3 is eastern, 4 semiwestern, 5 western. Many players grip on the fifth bevel and it is not considered extreme (eg. Roddick, Djokovic).

In the 60's there were no "bevel" definitions for the grips. An Eastern grip was shaking hands with the racquet which is close to putting the heel of your hand on the 2nd bevel. An Eastern backhand and continental grip were identical - putting the palm on top of the racquet which is close to putting the heel of the hand on the first bevel. An Aussie grip was between continental and Eastern forehand grips. A frying pan grip - picking the racquet up off of the ground was considered Western, and I don't even recall hearing the term semi-Western until many years later.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Maybe you did not understand my question or I did not understand your answer.

If the heel pad is in between 3 and 4, where is the index knuckle?

The modern definitions of the grips all have the heel of the hand and the first knuckle of the index finger on the same bevel. But, you should find what works and feels best for you. If you spread your fingers, the first knuckle will move counter-clockwise in relation to the heel. If you use a hammer grip, the first knuckle will move clockwise in relation to the heel.

I would be more concerned with being aware of where the heel of your hand is and how spread out your fingers are and let the first knuckle fall where it may. In other words, if you try to force the first knuckle on to a particular bevel, I think you're forcing a certain spread of the fingers that may not be optimal for you.

 

[Sanavan]

I had to grab my racquet after reading this!

My index knuckle rest on the center of 4th bevel and heel pad is on center of 3rd bevel. (this was not on authors options!).

 

[Ali Abdullah]

The modern definitions of the grips all have the heel of the hand and the first knuckle of the index finger on the same bevel. But, you should find what works and feels best for you. If you spread your fingers, the first knuckle will move counter-clockwise in relation to the heel. If you use a hammer grip, the first knuckle will move clockwise in relation to the heel.

I would be more concerned with being aware of where the heel of your hand is and how spread out your fingers are and let the first knuckle fall where it may. In other words, if you try to force the first knuckle on to a particular bevel, I think you're forcing a certain spread of the fingers that may not be optimal for you.

I use a pistol grip. I used to have a hammer grip. Now what happens is if my first knuckle of the index finger is below the heel pad, i feel comfortable but strokes arent that good and very less topspin. . With my knuckle of index finger above the heel pad,i get more natural topsin on my strokes n they're quite solid but i dont feel comfortable. So Im confused. I just want to get the proper grip and thn adjust myself to it.

 

[Ali Abdullah]

I had to grab my racquet after reading this!

My index knuckle rest on the center of 4th bevel and heel pad is on center of 3rd bevel. (this was not on authors options!).

Thats an extreme version of variation 3 I stated the variation keeping in mind that a semi western grip is when u have the heel pad and index knuckle on the same bevel, not different bevels like your grip.

 

[Bud]

Just lay your frame on the ground and pick it up. That's a standard SW grip (not mild, not extreme).

Most higher level players slightly change their grip depending on the shot. If they want more spin, they'll rotate the grip slightly more western and more eastern for low or flatter shots.

Based on pics, most pros seem to use standard to extreme SW for most of their shots.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I use a pistol grip. I used to have a hammer grip. Now what happens is if my first knuckle of the index finger is below the heel pad, i feel comfortable but strokes arent that good and very less topspin. . With my knuckle of index finger above the heel pad,i get more natural topsin on my strokes n they're quite solid but i dont feel comfortable. So Im confused. I just want to get the proper grip and thn adjust myself to it.

Use what works best. Comfort will come from use and familiarity.

 

[Ali Abdullah]

Does anyone have an idea of what variation the pros use?

 

[Bud]

Does anyone have an idea of what variation the pros use?

See last line of post #14

 

[Frank Silbermann]

In the 60's there were no "bevel" definitions for the grips. An Eastern grip was shaking hands with the racquet which is close to putting the heel of your hand on the 2nd bevel. An Eastern backhand and continental grip were identical - putting the palm on top of the racquet which is close to putting the heel of the hand on the first bevel. An Aussie grip was between continental and Eastern forehand grips. A frying pan grip - picking the racquet up off of the ground was considered Western, and I don't even recall hearing the term semi-Western until many years later.

Today's definitions are much closer to Bill Tilden's definitions eighty years ago (heel and knuckle both on bevel 3 for Eastern forehand, knuckle on bevel 1 for Eastern backhand and heel someone further towards or even on bevel 8).

After Tilden, we began to see grips among top pros migrating closer to the Continental style, and teaching pros did not want to take back their conclusion that the Eastern style is best, so they simply redefined it (heel on bevel 2 and knuckle anywhere on bevel 2 or three for Eastern forehand; heel on bevel 1 and knuckle on or close to bevel 2 for Eastern backhand). They saw no need to precisely define Western or semi-Western grips -- because you weren't supposed to use them anyway. But they did suggest that you could hit Western forehands and backhand with the same grip using the same side of the racket face.

 

[Ali Abdullah]

See last line of post #14

Yes, I understand that most pro's use a SW grip or more extreme SW but im talking in terms of the variations I mentioned. Cuz I can hold a SW grip in more thn 1 way even if i pick it up from the ground.

 

[10sLifer]

This might be the first time someone has asked this question but im trying to be very accurate here. From what I understand, on a semi-western grip, the heel pad and index knuckle rest on the 4th bevel of the racket. Now there can be 3 variations in this:

1- Heel pad and index knuckle are IN LINE with eachother on the 4th bevel.

2- Index knuckle is closer to the 3rd bevel and heel pad is closer to the 5th bevel but they still both rest on the same bevel. (means index knuckle is heel pad on 4th bevel, not in the same line)

3- Index knucle is closer to the 5th bevel and heel pad is closer to the 3rd bevel. Opposite to point 2.

Now especially with variation 2 and variation 3, I get a totally different feel on my forehand. I think no one uses variation 1, it feels ackward.

What I want to ask is, what variation do pros use and which one is preffered?

Yes but your assumptions are on the racquet bevels and not the very large large heal pad. The heal pad is about 2.5 inches long. You need to use the "bottom of the heal pad" and the base knuckle of the index finger on 3 to find the forehand grip. Like the greatest players of all time. Fed and Samp. Or just do what everyone else does and bring it over to four which nicely automatically closes the racquet face but takes away option of being a complete player. ;?

 

[Ali Abdullah]

Yes but your assumptions are on the racquet bevels and not the very large large heal pad. The heal pad is about 2.5 inches long. You need to use the "bottom of the heal pad" and the base knuckle of the index finger on 3 to find the forehand grip. Like the greatest players of all time. Fed and Samp. Or just do what everyone else does and bring it over to four which nicely automatically closes the racquet face but takes away option of being a complete player. ;?

Sorry for not being clear on my initial post but by heal pad, i already meant the bottom of the heal pad.

So what you're saying is that only a few players keep the bottom of the heal pad on the 3rd bevel while most players keep it on the 4th?

 

[rkelley]

Roughly the heel pad and the base knuckle on the index finger are on the same bevel (option 1 from the original post). Your fingers should be spread out a bit.

10sLifer's last comment was a dig at the prevalence of the SW grip, which is on bevel 4 (and of course you can go full W. on bevel 5 or anything inbetween.). He prefers the E. grip, on bevel 3. 10sLifer is a very good player and a teaching pro. He's not a proponent of the modern, WW forehand or the more Western grips (10sLifer - I hope I stated your position correctly - please chime in if I've mis-represented you).

 

[Ali Abdullah]

Roughly the heel pad and the base knuckle on the index finger are on the same bevel (option 1 from the original post). Your fingers should be spread out a bit.

10sLifer's last comment was a dig at the prevalence of the SW grip, which is on bevel 4 (and of course you can go full W. on bevel 5 or anything inbetween.). He prefers the E. grip, on bevel 3. 10sLifer is a very good player and a teaching pro. He's not a proponent of the modern, WW forehand or the more Western grips (10sLifer - I hope I stated your position correctly - please chime in if I've mis-represented you).

I think my original post wasnt clear. What im trying to say is that even when the base knuckle of index finger and bottom of heel pad rest on the 4th bevel, moving the heel pad a bit up or a bit low in relation to the base knuckle of index finger while still remaining on the 4th bevel( Meaning if the base knuckle is above or below the heel pad) the whole feeling of the shot changes.

Let me just make it simpler, do pros have thr base knuckle of the index finger BELOW OR ABOVE the bottom of the heel pad. By above or below i mean while staying on thr 4th bevel, is the heel pad below or above the base knuckle of the index finger.

 

[Ali Abdullah]

bump
........

 

[Ducker]

I use what ever grip will best handle the ball, i can hit with any grip. My grip ranges from cont-SW but never extreme SW most of the time im using SW. Sometimes ill change to eastern flatten out and hit a real driving ball, then go back to heavy spin using sw.

 

[rkelley]

I think my original post wasnt clear. What im trying to say is that even when the base knuckle of index finger and bottom of heel pad rest on the 4th bevel, moving the heel pad a bit up or a bit low in relation to the base knuckle of index finger while still remaining on the 4th bevel( Meaning if the base knuckle is above or below the heel pad) the whole feeling of the shot changes.

Let me just make it simpler, do pros have thr base knuckle of the index finger BELOW OR ABOVE the bottom of the heel pad. By above or below i mean while staying on thr 4th bevel, is the heel pad below or above the base knuckle of the index finger.

At this level of subtly I don't know the answer. Honestly, I don't know that there is an answer. You want your fingers spread out a bit which will generally put your index base knuckle and your heel pad on the same bevel. The exact amount is a personal preference I think.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Today's definitions are much closer to Bill Tilden's definitions eighty years ago (heel and knuckle both on bevel 3 for Eastern forehand, knuckle on bevel 1 for Eastern backhand and heel someone further towards or even on bevel 8).

After Tilden, we began to see grips among top pros migrating closer to the Continental style, and teaching pros did not want to take back their conclusion that the Eastern style is best, so they simply redefined it (heel on bevel 2 and knuckle anywhere on bevel 2 or three for Eastern forehand; heel on bevel 1 and knuckle on or close to bevel 2 for Eastern backhand). They saw no need to precisely define Western or semi-Western grips -- because you weren't supposed to use them anyway. But they did suggest that you could hit Western forehands and backhand with the same grip using the same side of the racket face.

Tilden's fh grip was with the heel of the hand on, or close to, the 2nd bevel which is the modern definition of a Continental grip. Vines' and Perry's fh grips, like Laver's, were with the heel of the hand on the 1st bevel which is even more open than a modern definition of a Continental grip.

 

[JT Corona]

I think my original post wasnt clear. What im trying to say is that even when the base knuckle of index finger and bottom of heel pad rest on the 4th bevel, moving the heel pad a bit up or a bit low in relation to the base knuckle of index finger while still remaining on the 4th bevel( Meaning if the base knuckle is above or below the heel pad) the whole feeling of the shot changes.

Let me just make it simpler, do pros have thr base knuckle of the index finger BELOW OR ABOVE the bottom of the heel pad. By above or below i mean while staying on thr 4th bevel, is the heel pad below or above the base knuckle of the index finger.

I think the heel pad is below the base knuckle. I recently switched to an extreme eastern from an eastern, and so i've been tinkering around with different variations. What I'm learning is you want something that closes the face but at the same time you want a grip thats capable of flattening out shots. Also when I tried a more standard SW my grip would drift towards an extreme eastern so I just start with the extreme eastern cus it feels more stable to me. Btw i consider the extreme eastern a variation of the SW, it closes the face on the backswing much more easily and naturally than the eastern and the wiper motion is natural as well. Just try different grips and post some pics/vids if you can. I think the other posters are right in saying everyone's a little different. Going from an eastern to SW isn't an easy change but i think i found a grip i like and now i gotta work on the other things like timing the loop with unit turn, footwork etc.

 

[Ali Abdullah]

 

[Ali Abdullah]

First 2 pics are for variation 3 and last 2 pics are for variation 2.

SW grip. Does anyone see any problem in these grips?

 

[Chyeaah]

nice pro open =D. Or is it a pro tour (booo).

Good pics too show the variations but cant help to notice your tape is dodgy...

 

[Ali Abdullah]

bump!.................................

 

[Bud]

Please stop mindlessly bumping this thread

 

[Limpinhitter]

In picture #2, your grip looks too spread out. That will tend to inhibit pronation. I would tighten it up a bit.

 

[JT Corona]

i'm guessing variation 2 gives you more spin. anyways i do agree that these slight changes in grips can have different feels and results. Imo these grips are fine to use, and are in the same general area of what the pros use.