forehand video: proper setup leading to bad contact point - why?

ho

Semi-Pro
proper setup should lead to proper contact point and extension. but not always. where is the mistake being made?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6TmKO7lDws
Yes, the contact point his Push should be on the side, not by a little far out, therefore, he hit some time with his body and arm as one unit, sometime just by his arm reach out. In this case:
1.just wait for the ball to come to him the hit
2.rotate with his arm trailing the shoulder
 

ProgressoR

Hall of Fame
his stroke is pretty good

and correct set up is just part of the stroke, you have to be set up in the right position with respect to the ball, and everything after set up can go wrong, doesnt mean the set up isnt right.
 
He is good. I only watched the first 30 seconds of the vid but from that I would say he hs very nice strokes.

but why post a video from 2007?:D.
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
Just some context, this thread is a branch of another thread: A Forehand Progression.

Check out the thread yourselves.

This example comes up on the third page of the thread. I think it's fair to say that there was not any consensus that there were huge problems with this forehand. John Yandell thought it looked "pretty good."

Certainly if you think there are issues with the stroke you should say so. I'm not trying to stifle debate, but I also don't think the stroke should be presented as having problems that should be intuitively obvious to the casual observer.
 

Netzroller

Semi-Pro
'bad contact point'!?
That's some great hitting, I wish I had your strokes. I don't see any mistake, I mean even with correct technique you don't hit the ball perfectly every time. Just watch Federer framing balls once in a while.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Sometimes, we all get caught up in style and form, forgetting effectiveness.
Just what is an effective forehand? Obviously, consistent getting it IN, has some angles and DTL's, has enough pace not to get attacked, has enough pace TO attack.
Whether our feet move, our turret turns, our weight shifts, or we watch the ball like a hawk matters little, as long as the effectiveness trumps the mistakes.
Tennis is not all about form and beauty, it's definetely NOT ballet.
What matters is how well the ball gets hit, not how well you look in the pursuit of hitting the ball well.
Watch the Spanish contingent, including one Rafa. We CAN criticize the strokes, but can we really criticize the results?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
yup, his weight going the wrong way. i m kind of suprised that most ppl dont see that.
It's not that we don't see it.
I just don't agree with your point.
I'm not suggesting it is a perfect Fh, but
it is overall a nice modern Fh if we are looking at the same vid.
 

DavaiMarat

Professional
yes, and wid all his flaws, he beats all of YOU.
No one asked me if he was good...lol.

Simply pointing out what I see as a hitch. Can you work around it with a little natural ability? Sure.

Have I seen the same thing in some 4.0+, sure have. Again because it's not perfect doesn't mean it's broken. Look at nadal's reverse forehand. It's ugly, dangerous but boy does it produce a heavy ball.
 
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tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Its not his technique, its his feet. So lets continue this lame guessing game. Look at his forehand and look at his backhand and pay attention to his footwork. What do you see?
 

bad_call

Legend
^ dude is much lighter on his feet than this player. i tend to stay more planted which can be a problem if the ball comes back faster than i can "unstuck" my feet. :(
 

DavaiMarat

Professional
....Definitely not swinging the planet enough....
....no he's not swinging the human arm,
....no..wait...he's fighting the spirits within....
....wait he just has to listen to the earth more....
....definitely 2.0 tops....in Socal he'd be a 1.5
....He's too tight...
...He's too loose,
...Where's your footwork!
...he doesn't look like federer so he must be doing it wrong....
...Lack of MTM in his develop hindered his development....
...what's wrong with his stroke? looks good to me...
...reminds me of when I was his age...
...he's hitting vs. a ball machine/wall/feeder...so moot...
...Get a better hitting partner!
...Can't tell from that Camera angle...
...Looks good, keep up the good work...
...you only made 3/10 balls in the court!
...I dated his sister....in 1967...


Did I miss anything?
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
Its not his technique, its his feet. So lets continue this lame guessing game. Look at his forehand and look at his backhand and pay attention to his footwork. What do you see?

bad contact point causes bad feet , and not the reverse

his visualisation of slapping cause his feet to move that way

right DM?
 

ProgressoR

Hall of Fame
Personally I hit the ball any which way then afterwards focus on getting my feet in the right position. I have to say I am having limited success with this, even though my footwork is excellent.

I need to try harder.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Footwork has a huge influence on your contact point. Before, during and after you strike the ball. After? yup, after because everything is connected.

When I say footwork, or movement I don't mean getting to the ball quickly. It includes balance, positioning of the feet during the stroke and positioning of the feet after the stroke and so on, the whole shebang. So like I said, watch the guys forehand and then backhand and see if you can spot the difference.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
What happens first? Contact point or movement to the ball? hmm

sorry, but u are stoopid

visualization of contact


but u have a point, the feet may influence your mental picture. i take back the stoopid.

but this dude has his foot setup. so it must be his visualization of slapping the ball that cause his improper loading and unloading
 
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tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Look what his feet do on the shots that he shanks in the first 50 secs. Compare that to how he hits his backhand or when he hits a clean forehand. Pay attention to his right foot, how it sets up and finishes.

Gotta stop with the name calling, makes you look immature ;-)
 
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tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
I just skipped forward in the video and saw him rally, and its exactly as I said before. Its all in his feet, not his hands of why he's shanking. I only saw the beginning before but doesn't matter, it was clear as day.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
Look what his feet do on the shots that he shanks in the first 30 secs. Compare that to how he hits his backhand or when he hits a clean forehand. Pay attention to his right foot, how it sets up and finishes.

Gotta stop with the name calling, makes you look immature ;-)
yes , i got a lot of flack on the other thread.

but its insulting to me for you to assume i have not already considered your very basic question.

i think the root of the problem is his mental imagery. the moment u know u have to hit a forehand. the brain process a mental image of contact and sets your body in motion.

i think u have to make him feel the correct sensation of hitting the ball and his footwork will follow. right now, his visualization and muscle memory is right to left slap. if u can corret his contact, proper footwork will follow.

i dont hit thru the ball myself. it been very diffucult to change. for most people, they are not aware they are in fact slapping the ball, because they have never felt the sensation of properly hitting thru the ball. they have nothing to compare to.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Maybe, but we only know 7:30min of his game from that video and nothing more. We don't know his thought process and mind set when he's hitting a tennis ball, how he plays in competition, how many times he plays in a week and so on. Just a small snippet of his game.

Looking at his video the thing he lacks the most is movement. To put it bluntly he's lazy with his feet/legs and setting up to the ball. During the feeds he does well, but once they get into a rally its too slow, too late, and lacks dynamics. If he's trying to impress a college coach with that video it won't happen with a top team. The video is also 4 years old now so he could be a different player. However, seeing the kids rally and the way he moves I blame his coach as much as him for his lack of footwork.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
Maybe, but we only know 7:30min of his game from that video and nothing more. We don't know his thought process and mind set when he's hitting a tennis ball, how he plays in competition, how many times he plays in a week and so on. Just a small snippet of his game.

Looking at his video the thing he lacks the most is movement. To put it bluntly he's lazy with his feet/legs and setting up to the ball. During the feeds he does well, but once they get into a rally its too slow, too late, and lacks dynamics. If he's trying to impress a college coach with that video it won't happen with a top team. The video is also 4 years old now so he could be a different player. However, seeing the kids rally and the way he moves I blame his coach as much as him for his lack of footwork.
the thought process is universal to everyone. u dont think about how u hit the ball. its mental imagery and muscle memory. like we have 2 arms and 2 eyes etc. no guessing game to this point.

if he had hyper-active footwork, he would hyperactively arrive at a bad contact point.
 
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pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
As you may know, he doesn't have to use it all the time. Maybe, it would help if you tell us why you think he should have used it in a situation such and such, etc.
i beg to differ

mogul is necessary on all FH. the difference is the extent of the mogul.

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compared to proper extension

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rfprse

Professional
Um... maybe only if you mean by the term as pushing off the right foot.
Otherwise, it's more or less refers to a footwork to deal with a wide ball with an open stance as well as to facilitate the recovery.
But terminological difference aside, would you expand on your claim? You would not mean that when someone steps into the ball, for example, that also requires a 'mogul' step.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
i beg to differ

mogul is necessary on all FH. the difference is the extent of the mogul.
That's a very interesting statement.

Mogul step derived from a need to balance during and recover from a wide ball when moving at speed. Unless your definition of a mogul step is different (wrong), there is no need to mogul step on every forehand.

Could you explain why you think it is necessary on all forehands?

cheers
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Push,
and what is wrong with his contact point?

balla, what is wrong with his footwork?

thanks
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
That's a very interesting statement.

Mogul step derived from a need to balance during and recover from a wide ball when moving at speed. Unless your definition of a mogul step is different (wrong), there is no need to mogul step on every forehand.

Could you explain why you think it is necessary on all forehands?

cheers

proper release of the racquet

the left side has to brake for the right side to come thru properly. u see this in a slap shot in hockey, golf swing, etc - any motion intiated with body rotation. if the left side doesnt break, u will only spinnig around forever. this is what robert is doing. contrast that to brice, he does a mini mogul on every forehand. specifically, he does a mini mogul when he intiate his swing forward.

are u familiar with the concept of hitting against a strong left side in golf?
have u read kerry mitchel article "no such thing as open stance"

u know when u hit a short ball moving forward with a double hop, thats also a "mogul"
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
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tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
Push,
and what is wrong with his contact point?

balla, what is wrong with his footwork?

thanks
Well in my opinion, when he's being fed the ball he looks fine but a few which he shanked he was too upright and didn't use his legs, it was all upper body or arm. Just watch the very last forehand in the video, he also nets it, how he's not using his legs in the shot, and even pulls back on a normal rally shot. The result spoke for itself I think, in the net.

I dunno, I guess if I was a coach of a college I'd be looking for more. This is a college recruitment video after all. I understand the fact that if you're just rallying he's not gonna be running around and plowing into shots like in a match, its more relaxed but even so it looks empty to me.

Basically I'd like to see his stroke start from the legs more. Like mentioned before he's just slapping at at the ball and I believe he's not utilizing his body enough, even if he is just hitting easy shots.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
Well in my opinion, when he's being fed the ball he looks fine but a few which he shanked he was too upright and didn't use his legs, it was all upper body or arm. Just watch the very last forehand in the video, he also nets it, how he's not using his legs in the shot, and even pulls back on a normal rally shot. The result spoke for itself I think, in the net.

I dunno, I guess if I was a coach of a college I'd be looking for more. This is a college recruitment video after all. I understand the fact that if you're just rallying he's not gonna be running around and plowing into shots like in a match, its more relaxed but even so it looks empty to me.

Basically I'd like to see his stroke start from the legs more. Like mentioned before he's just slapping at at the ball and I believe he's not utilizing his body enough, even if he is just hitting easy shots.
he is very upright.

he does use his body and legs but incorrectly. all the energy is utilized to propel him into a spin, instead of releasing it into the ball. its like the 2 inch punch. u have to focus all the stored energy in the smallest area possible.
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
at contact, his body/everything is moving in the wrong direction.

proof is in his following thru.

look at this video. he also leans back, but gets thru the ball a lot better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGxxrr_k3IM


this one - same problem as robert. it a very common fault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-q38npWHJo
Ok, I see what you are talking about.
I would deal with it thru stabilizing the head,
then the body and steps would be fine based on my experiences.
 

gregor.b

Professional
Body weight going the wrong way in 3 out of first 4 forehands.Must be getting there too late not setting up and going forward.Volleys he drops racquet head-no 'V' .Backhand-body weight falling wrong way.Hard to direct the ball with pace and direction if you are not in behind the ball.Looks like laziness or lack of crispness-nothing that an attitude adjustment can't fix.
 
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