Forehand with wrist-snap

[zzzbrianxxx]

I'm all confused now. I heavily employ my wrist on my forehand. It's well controlled, powerful, and consistent. I'm starting to get the impression that the textbook forehand does not use a wrist-snap of any kind. Is this true?

I don't see how I could hit the ball over the net with out using my wrist. I understand that power comes from the body, but I feel that not using the wrist prohibits the flow of that energy.

 

[Noveson]

I am confused on this fact also. The "classic" tecnique is to keep your wrist straight, but look at both Feds and Nadals strokes. Very much wrist employed there. I think a bit of wrist comes naturally, or more than that to some players(me included). The only disadvantage I can see of a wristy shot is lack of consistency becuase of timing. If it works for you keep it

 

[zzzbrianxxx]

Look at this though. From the first shot you see he uses his wrist. Then look at the next shot. ZERO wrist-snip. How did he hit that shot above 30mph? I know that the first shot was flat and the second was pure topspin, but I mean c'mon, look at it. It boggles my mind and it's starting to bother me.

Look at about 55sec. in. That, to me, is the picture perfect FH, and is why I try to copy every time I go out and hit a FH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00

 

[alan-n]

Pronation with eastern / sw forehand grips are nothing new. Face it no matter how hard to try to do a "text book" forehand, you won't always be in position or the ball won't be in your hitting zone with a spin you are confortable with to pull off a "text book" forehand all the time. ..... if anything, if you are good with your forehand leave the "wrist snap" alone, its an addition that advanced players add to their forehands to help them add side spin or hit excessive topspin.

In those Federer forehands shots.. what you don't see is what happens to the ball at court level. Only in the court level videos do you see the amount of spins AND sidespin that Federer is generating.

 

[zzzbrianxxx]

alan, your grammatical mistakes prohibit my understanding. Are you saying there should be zero wrist snap if one is at all competent? Have you ever tried this? If you look at those youtube shots where Federer keeps his wrist stiff for topspin, he's not keeping his wrist straight, he's keeping it as far back as possible, and keeping it there untill the ball has come off of his strings. I can understand hitting a forehand and getting some power with a straight wrist, but not a wrist that is bent back. Doing that means the arm has to be extended nearly fully in front of you.

 

[alan-n]

Your original message refers to forehand pronation, which is allowing your wrist and forearm to rotate over the side or top of the ball to generate excessive spin. You want to do this when you want to generate more spin or sidespin.

What you are referring to in the last post is a "laid back wrist" and stays still throughout the shot. This is how you want to hit the ball when you drive it as a laid back wrist is more stable than one that isn't and allows you to hit STRAIGHT THROUGH the ball cleaner.... or basically ensure that the racquet face moves linearly / straight line through the ball. The laid back wrist generates power from your legs and body, there is so much whipping action/enery/racquet head speed if you chain your legs and body together that you need to keep the wrist laid back to ensure you have a stable swing path... If you aren't driving the ball by using your legs and body, yes I can see why you wouldn't have a laid back wrist.

 

[tennis_hand]

Not using wrist is such an old school thought. Which pro holds his wrist still and straight?

 

[mucat]

he's keeping it as far back as possible, and keeping it there untill the ball has come off of his strings.

After the ball come off the string, whatever you do will not affect the ball.

In the Federer slow motion video, Federer's wrist is firm and laid back, before and at contact. The movement you saw is pronation of the forearm, not wrist snap.

I am still amazed by how far out in front Federer can hit the ball. Love this video.

 

[mucat]

Not using wrist is such an old school thought. Which pro holds his wrist still and straight?

I remember I heard about this (exactly the same thing!!) when I was in junior high...20 years ago...I remember some of us called it "wrist powered tennis" (rough translation to english), some of us were obsessed with how to incorporate wrist into the FH. Now, 20 years later, I found out it is pronation, not wrist snap.

 

[drakulie]

Not using wrist is such an old school thought. Which pro holds his wrist still and straight?

All of them have their wrist laid back at contact. Although this may be considered and "old school" thought, it is still used today.

 

[Nero_S]

The way I see it, it is essential to have your wrist relaxed in flexion-extension direction. When you begin with swing, shoulder and elbow are going first into the shot since you are pulling racquet butt on the ball. Weight of the racquet gives substantial amount of inertia and therefore wrist lags behind forearm giving that "wrist laid back" look you see on the slow-mo videos. However, this "hyperextension" or back flexion of wrist stores huge amount of static energy since wrist now acts as a spring. As the swing moves toward contact point wrist begins to move with forearm and begins to move back toward its neutral position thus adding more to the racquet head speed. Depending of the contact point, due to mentioned lag, at the moment of ball impact on string, wrist can be more or less extended, which explains different appearance you se on pictures of pros. My impression is that more the western is grip, wrist meets ball in more extended position, mostly due to different shape of the swing.
If your wrist is relaxed in any other direction except flexion-extension, you will be inconsistent. It is possible to make your wrist firm, which adds to your consistency, but it will leave your stroke without huge amount of racquet head speed - in other words, power.
That's why you can get more power if you hit with relaxed arm and not so firm grip, and that's why good players play with heavy racquet. They are actually using weight (or inertia) in order to produce stronger shots.
I hope this is clear, since it requiers a basic knowledge of physics to understand.

Nero

 

[tennis_hand]

well, some people argue that wrist should not be used, because they probably mean you should not use wrist as you play badminton. but who actually play tennis like playing badminton? the interpretation of using wrist is not right for these people.

Wrist is used, but not in the way as you use it in badminton. "pronation" sounds better.

 

[drakulie]

well, some people argue that wrist should not be used, because they probably mean you should not use wrist as you play badminton. but who actually play tennis like playing badminton? the interpretation of using wrist is not right for these people.

Wrist is used, but not in the way as you use it in badminton. "pronation" sounds better.

"prone", means "face down/closed". So, I am not sure what you mean by pronation in the forehand.

In a forehand, the wrist is not used, rather it is laid back. As someone else aready said, what happens with the wrist after the ball has left the strings is insignificant.

here is a large pic of a forehand right before contact (note wrist laid back):

here is following picture sequence of the same swing at contact (note wrist laid back):

 

[drakulie]

Here is the complete action sequence of the above forehand. The wrist nor my arm/hand are prone. The wrist is laid back until after contact when it releases, and then well after contact does my hand become prone (picture 8. Notice how the ball is not even in the picture anymore):

Here is yet another forehand action sequence: Same result: Wrist laid back until well after contact:

 

[Nero_S]

This picture sequence exactlly illustrates that wrist actually lags behind forehand, which causes this "laid back" appearance you see. Note that on the beginning of the swing wrist is slightly laid back and as the swing progresses it becomes more laid back.

Nero

 

[drakulie]

This picture sequence exactlly illustrates that wrist actually lags behind forehand, which causes this "laid back" appearance you see. Note that on the beginning of the swing wrist is slightly laid back and as the swing progresses it becomes more laid back.

Nero

Correct. The wrist is laid back at contact. There is a "push" during contact, and after that "puch" the wrist releases.

There are times when the wrist is not laid back so much at contact, such as when you have to stretch.

 

[ShooterMcMarco]

Drakulie, those pics look like they belong in a book, hehe.

 

[drakulie]

Thanks! I'm working on putting together a bunch of pictures like this along with the videos to provide to easitennis.

Hopefully it will help people understand a lot of what we see is an "optical illusion", and enable them to hit proper strokes, rather than learning improper strokes by copying what they think they see.

 

[JCo872]

I'm all confused now. I heavily employ my wrist on my forehand. It's well controlled, powerful, and consistent. I'm starting to get the impression that the textbook forehand does not use a wrist-snap of any kind. Is this true?

I don't see how I could hit the ball over the net with out using my wrist. I understand that power comes from the body, but I feel that not using the wrist prohibits the flow of that energy.

This wrist/hand is supinated/flexed back and down before pulling to the ball. This is why the "butt cap points to the ball" before pulling forward. There is some relaxation of the wrist and an inside-out racket path to contact.

From contact on, however, you must keep your hand back and push forward through the ball for a moment, as drakulie mentioned. Check out the pros here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

Jeff

 

[drakulie]

This wrist/hand is supinated/flexed back and down before pulling to the ball. This is why the "butt cap points to the ball" before pulling forward. There is some relaxation of the wrist and an inside-out racket path to contact.

From contact on, however, you must keep your hand back and push forward through the ball for a moment, as drakulie mentioned. Check out the pros here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

Jeff

Nice link jeff. This is exactly what I was talking about in regards to the "push" during contact. Unfortunately, my pics only go so far.

 

[Byakuya]

All this talk about wrist pronation and open or close might get confusing. To have a simpler perception really is... whether continental, eastern, sm, western or whatever grip you use, that is the way your hand holds the racqet at contact with the ball. If the strings don't hit the ball in right angles the ball won't travel correctly. It doesn't matter what kind of wrist angle you use, power you exert, or swing style.. the ball has to travel to one destination...clear the net and land on the other side of the tennis court!! There will be a lot of variation not just among players but even with every stroke of a single player. The badminton example was good. If you play tennis like badminton, you will eventually hurt your wrist and/or hit the ball out. The tennis ball needs to be tear through the air, not glide like a shuttle c0ck birdy.

 

[paulfreda]

With all due respect ....... I am curious.
Those here who believe that there is no wrist release [or educated wrist], how do you explain the Lansdorp FH where his mantra is to have the tip of the frame point at the target with a fully released wrist ?

The fully laid back wrist FH is simply ONE kind of shot. A very good one indeed. A consistent one no doubt. Perfect for big topspin. But not for a drive. I believe teaching overemphasis on this layback destroys the the progress of talented players who are not strong minded enough to ignor some of the advice they get. It is no coincidence that many of the greatest players of the last half century have had styles totally different than the orthodoxy of their time; McEnroe, Borg, Connors [2HBH], Nadal to name a few.

Releasing the wrist in to the ball on a shot for which you have the time is what a natural athlete will do if not coerced by his teachers and his consistency will not suffer if he chooses the right balls to rip.

JMHO

 

[drakulie]

With all due respect ....... I am curious.
Those here who believe that there is no wrist release [or educated wrist], how do you explain the Lansdorp FH where his mantra is to have the tip of the frame point at the target with a fully released wrist ?

What you are talking about in regards to the Landsdorp FH is AFTER contact. During the contact stage even in the Landsdorp FH the wrist is laid back.

The fully laid back wrist FH is simply ONE kind of shot. A very good one indeed. A consistent one no doubt. Perfect for big topspin. But not for a drive.

Whether one drives the ball, or puts topspin-- the wrist is laid back. It is the swing path that changes, not the wrist.

 

[paulfreda]

Wrist release

What you are talking about in regards to the Landsdorp FH is AFTER contact. During the contact stage even in the Landsdorp FH the wrist is laid back.

Of course it is fully released after contact.
But it is also intentionally being released thru contact. Otherwise Robert would be saying .... drive your wrist toward the target [until you need to relieve tension by releasing the wrist].

Whether one drives the ball, or puts topspin-- the wrist is laid back. It is the swing path that changes, not the wrist.

Swing path low to high, of course for topspin.
But if you are hitting a drive on a benign ball, releasing the wrist is as natural as throwing a baseball or hitting a serve. In both cases there is a wrist release; in some cases a wrist snap. To tell a talented student not to do this is destructive IMO.

 

[drakulie]

Of course it is fully released after contact.

If you feel you already knew this then why woudl you provide contradictory information, and use landsdorp?

But it is also intentionally being released thru contact.

No it isn't. The "contact" stage is so quick there is no way one could possibly time it to purposely snap or release it at "contact". The wrist naturally releases on its own after the contact stage.

Otherwise Robert would be saying .... drive your wrist toward the target [until you need to relieve tension by releasing the wrist].

The wrist is not intentionally being forced to lay back. There is a difference.

Swing path low to high, of course for topspin.
But if you are hitting a drive on a benign ball, releasing the wrist is as natural as throwing a baseball or hitting a serve. In both cases there is a wrist release; in some cases a wrist snap. To tell a talented student not to do this is destructive IMO.

On ANY fh there is a wrist release. However, as I said before the wirst is laid back at contact, and there should not be an intentional "snap" of the wrist.

In addtition, there should not be a snap of the wrist in the serve either. That was incorrect advice you gave on the other thread.

Anyway, not one pro does this. If you have any proof that ANY pro does what you are advocating post it. Otherwise don't give out misleading information. Here is a link that shows several pro forehands:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/topspin.php

 

[drakulie]

Here is a closeup of what is going on with the wrist:

In a forehand, the wrist is not used, rather it is laid back. As someone else aready said, what happens with the wrist after the ball has left the strings is insignificant.

here is a large pic of a forehand right before contact (note wrist laid back):

here is following picture sequence of the same swing at contact (note wrist laid back):

 

[drakulie]

Here is the complete action sequence: The first one was a flatter ball, the second one had more topspin.

By the way, the reason Landsdorp teaches his fh with the follow thru pointing at the target is to get his students into the habit of hitting thru the ball. Afterwards, he does not advoacte this as much, and allows the student to have their own unique follow-thru.

Here is the complete action sequence of the above forehand. The wrist nor my arm/hand are prone. The wrist is laid back until after contact when it releases, and then well after contact does my hand become prone (picture 8. Notice how the ball is not even in the picture anymore):

Here is yet another forehand action sequence: Same result: Wrist laid back until well after contact:

 

[DragonFly]

Look at this though. From the first shot you see he uses his wrist. Then look at the next shot. ZERO wrist-snip. How did he hit that shot above 30mph? I know that the first shot was flat and the second was pure topspin, but I mean c'mon, look at it. It boggles my mind and it's starting to bother me.

Look at about 55sec. in. That, to me, is the picture perfect FH, and is why I try to copy every time I go out and hit a FH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00

Fed's use of wrist comes before the contact moment, his wrist snap is earlier and isn't shown in those vids. after the wrist snap happens, his wrist stays straight thorughout the stroke.

 

[paulfreda]

To release or not to release .....

The "contact" stage is so quick there is no way one could possibly time it to purposely snap or release it at "contact". The wrist naturally releases on its own after the contact stage.

You can release or snap your wrist thru the ball on a FH just as you can on a serve. It begins before contact and finishes well after the ball is gone. But it is a conscious move that can generate great pace. Watch Bagdatis snap/hit a dtl fh pass.

The wrist if the final link in the biomechanical chain. While there are times one benefits from inhibiting this final link, it is most natural and productive to let it fly on benign balls. And with the new lighter stronger frames available, it is easier to do every year.

The wrist is not intentionally being forced to lay back. There is a difference.

You are advocating letting the wrist layback at contact are you not ?
I say there is another way [in addition to a laid back wrist] to hit the ball by releasing or snaping thru it.

If you doubt this then speak to Agassi's dad who demostrated [by snap whipping a towel] how he taught Andre to snap a FH.

In addtition, there should not be a snap of the wrist in the serve either. That was incorrect advice you gave on the other thread.

No it was not.
There should not be a folding of the wrist. But a snap pronation [mostly of the forearm, but not all] is how you get pace.
As Roy Emerson says .... "loosey goosey at the top".

Anyway, not one pro does this. If you have any proof that ANY pro does what you are advocating post it. Otherwise don't give out misleading information.

It is you who is giving out misinformation, not me.
Besides, this is not science.
My quote reference about Andre's dad is proof that at least one legend consciously releases or snaps thru contact on some shots. I'll take his word over yours.


Listen, Drakulie; I know you are highly knowledgable about tennis.
I respect and often learn from what you have to say. But IMO you are wrong on this one. No offense. Just discussion.

Disageements about technique have existed as long as people have hit white or yellow tennis balls; change grips or one grip to volley ?, bend arm or straight arm on FH ? , backscratch or not for a service motion ? , etc, etc.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Time to go out and hit a few .....

 

[Nero_S]

The tip of the whip snaps because it breaks the sound wall - it goes faster than sound. That is how fast it goes. Same applies to kinetic chain of hip-shoulder-elbow-wrist. Think about it as a giant whip whith tip at the racquet head. You can get enourmous head speed if you think about it that way. But what is more important - you need to be relaxed in all of the mentioned joints except in hip, since all the power comes from there. Reason for this is beacause tensed muscles give elastic resistance in the kinetic chain, thus absorbing some power. If you look Federer who is IMHO the best example of utilising whip theory - he is completely relaxed. As I've seen in slow mo videos pros deliberately firm their wrists when they are placing a precise shot.
And what is also important - they are pulling the racquet during the entire swing from basic position until contact. This might be confusing but if you look Fed when he is executing his whip shot he does it all the time. This gives the impression of racquet going first to the left and then to the right into the swing. And this also resembles the motion of whip artist doing the side snap with whip. You can try it with towel just like Agassi did and you'll get the picture.

Nero

 

[drakulie]

If you doubt this then speak to Agassi's dad who demostrated [by snap whipping a towel] how he taught Andre to snap a FH.

My quote reference about Andre's dad is proof that at least one legend consciously releases or snaps thru contact on some shots. I'll take his word over yours.

Don't take my word or Andre's father, or even Agassi's for that matter. Take a study done on the Agassi Forehand.

Andre Agassi's father, AA, and you are all inocrrect. What they think they are doing and what people think they see are for lack of a better word, an "optical illusion". There is no wrist snap before or during contact. What happens is from having a relaxed laid back wrist.....the wrist release after contact giving the illusion that the player "snapped", or "flicked" his wrist.

NB. I know nothing about the author, Bill Mountford, but he is doing the Q&A role for USTA.com.

http://www.usta.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=377488

Q. In regards to the question about PTR or USPTA instructors not teaching the "modern way" (10/25), it raised a question. Does the "modern way" require a higher level of skill in order for it to be performed properly? I remember a study done by Vic Braden on Agassi's forehand. Andre swore he used his wrist, but the study showed in fact he did not. It seems to me that the techniques required in the modern way could be easily misunderstood or applied resulting in poor execution, even with an instructor’s help (i.e., watching a player like Agassi and seeing him use his "wrist"). I wondered if teaching the student to get the racquet back early while turning the shoulders and keeping a firm wrist would be a better approach and could be used as a jumping off point for the "modern way." What are your thoughts on this? Frank – Norman, OK



I actually believe that utilizing the “modern” techniques makes it EASIER for players to learn how to play well more quickly. It saves steps on the court, it is easier to track the ball, and there is more emphasis on turning through the shot (and thus less stress on the smaller muscles of the arm). Every player is different, though, and you should tailor your coaching to accommodate the physicality (not to mention goals and expectations) of your student. Generally speaking, I advocate taking the racquet back “late” for most groundstrokes. To be specific, a player is usually best served by turning as the ball bounces so that the racquet stays in constant motion (as opposed to “back early,” then “wait,” and then start the racquet forward). This method allows the racquet to stay out in front and for a greater reliance on the unit turn.


Many players associate a “firm wrist” with squeezing the racquet handle too firmly, and this is not ideal, so I am careful about ever offering that suggestion. The study of Andre Agassi’s own perception of his forehand is interesting. He certainly cocks his wrist back before contact (putting his forearm muscles “on stretch”). After he finishes the follow-through, Agassi’s wrist is inarguably in a different position. His logic is easy to follow: that the wrist “snaps” through the hitting zone. Vic Braden was able to break down that Agassi’s wrist was, in fact, still (if not locked) throughout the milliseconds of contact during the forehand. However, if you were trying to teach/coach the Agassi forehand and were to insist that a student keep his wrist firm throughout the swing, then it would not likely look at all like… the Agassi forehand.


– Bill

As I said before. Not one pro player I have ever seen slow motion video of "snaps" their wrist. NOT ONE. This includes Baghdatis, Agassi, Sampras, Federer, Safin, Hewitt, Gonzo, Roddick, etc, etc, etc.

In addition, not one intentionally snaps their wrist during the serve.

If you have any video showing proof to back up your claim, please post it. I am quite sure it does not exist.

 

[Swinging Simian]

I've been told that the only time you shold conciously "flick or snap" your wrist is when you're picking up a ball on the rise or doing a backhand overhead.

 

[Janne]

Not sure about the taking a ball on the rise thing but you are right when it comes to the backhand overhead. Being a tennis newbie I´ve only seen that many matches but every time I´ve seen someone doing to backhand overhead they've snapped the wrist backwards.

Today, when at practice we were playing a little match play, I went to the net and my coach made a lob that I went on to hit a winner off with an overhead backhand for the first time ever (I was so proud, my first try at the BH OH and it was a winner) and there was a wrist flick/snap included.

 

[zzzbrianxxx]

Guys, c'mon...LOOK AT THE VIDEO I POSTED!!! I referenced TWO specific shots in the youtube video of federer. Clearly, in one of them, there is ZERO wrist movement and he hits the ball WAY in front of him. I wondered how he got ANY power off of that shot. It's not "relaxed" or "laid-back", it's "pushed back". When you look at the other shot I mentioned, he CLEARLY has wrist movement. Watch the video!

 

[drakulie]

Guys, c'mon...LOOK AT THE VIDEO I POSTED!!! I referenced TWO specific shots in the youtube video of federer. Clearly, in one of them, there is ZERO wrist movement and he hits the ball WAY in front of him. I wondered how he got ANY power off of that shot. It's not "relaxed" or "laid-back", it's "pushed back". When you look at the other shot I mentioned, he CLEARLY has wrist movement. Watch the video!

His wrist is laid back in every forehand in the video you provided. Yes, even in the one at "55 seconds".

The difference in the very first fh, is that he is stretching for the ball so by the time he strikes it his wrist is almost in a straight line with his arm, rather than laid back at contact.