Foreign Players

Rina

Professional
Those foreign players on the men's team actually made Maryland a competitive program for the final few years of their existence after previous decades of futility. So that's not really the right place to put the blame.
I am not saying these players are to blame, I don't blame them. Plus, plenty of D1 are not scholarships schools. I am just saying there were plenty of decent players in MD who would have loved the experience without the scholarship. After all, college is about experience and education, to me tennis is just a part of the experience, not the purpose of going to college.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
I am not saying these players are to blame, I don't blame them. Plus, plenty of D1 are not scholarships schools. I am just saying there were plenty of decent players in MD who would have loved the experience without the scholarship. After all, college is about experience and education, to me tennis is just a part of the experience, not the purpose of going to college.
Maybe we should award tennis scholarships at random to local players, without regard to how each player compares to his peers in ability. The players would love the scholarships and the experience.

As for players loving the experience without scholarships, they already have that. It is called club tennis.
 

Rina

Professional
Maybe we should award tennis scholarships at random to local players, without regard to how each player compares to his peers in ability. The players would love the scholarships and the experience.

As for players loving the experience without scholarships, they already have that. It is called club tennis.
Maybe we should award tennis scholarships at random to local players, without regard to how each player compares to his peers in ability. The players would love the scholarships and the experience.

You are pretty dense and clearly have no idea that plenty of DI schools do not award athletic scholarships and still recruit the best players they can. Who said anything about awarding scholarships to any level player? You have reading comprehension issues.
 
Oh please...how do you know the Mississippi State coach didn't try to recruit the players who ended up at UCLA, why do you just assume 'he's just lazy' for bringing in foreign players? Name one thing Mississippi State has to offer that is better than what UCLA has to offer...just one. Why does Baylor, for example, have mostly foreign players? If you've ever been to Waco Texas you'd know why, top US players would rather go anywhere, somewhere like UCLA, instead. Coaches are hired and paid to produce results. A coach who brings in foreign players to make their team better is doing their job. When you are a coach losing is not something that leads to job security.

I've said it before and I will continue to say that foreign players have made US college tennis better. There are not enough top US players to make up anywhere near 32 top level teams let alone 64. The 64 team Nationals would be an absolute joke, a folly, without foreign players. Without foreign players college tennis would be less competitive, less interesting. and less relevant. The purists can whine all they want but they're blowing in the wind.
I am pretty sure he was being sarcastic dude...
 

Raw_Coach

New User
Oh please...how do you know the Mississippi State coach didn't try to recruit the players who ended up at UCLA, why do you just assume 'he's just lazy' for bringing in foreign players? Name one thing Mississippi State has to offer that is better than what UCLA has to offer...just one. Why does Baylor, for example, have mostly foreign players? If you've ever been to Waco Texas you'd know why, top US players would rather go anywhere, somewhere like UCLA, instead. Coaches are hired and paid to produce results. A coach who brings in foreign players to make their team better is doing their job. When you are a coach losing is not something that leads to job security.

I've said it before and I will continue to say that foreign players have made US college tennis better. There are not enough top US players to make up anywhere near 32 top level teams let alone 64. The 64 team Nationals would be an absolute joke, a folly, without foreign players. Without foreign players college tennis would be less competitive, less interesting. and less relevant. The purists can whine all they want but they're blowing in the wind.
To be fair, Baylor has some of the best facilities in the nation. However, the way Matt Knoll built that team when they didn't even have locker rooms, was mostly through foreign recruits, and cheating to get Becker and Dorsch lol
 

andfor

Legend
To be fair, Baylor has some of the best facilities in the nation. However, the way Matt Knoll built that team when they didn't even have locker rooms, was mostly through foreign recruits, and cheating to get Becker and Dorsch lol
He cheated how?


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tennisjunky

Rookie
I see this as a purely Supply and Demand situation.

As long a colleges can dip into an endless international pool for tennis talent, which keeps the supply high...... than why should USA care to improve supply here.
Yes the USA will be some tinkering around the edges to make it easier to USA talent, through better ranking and more tournaments but the tidal wave of free loading internationals WILL NEVER END because there are addicted to Uncle Sam's money!!!

I say, the only solution is to REMOVE TENNIS FROM ALL UNIVERSITIES and let it stand on its own.
Immediately all these international: clubs , recruitment brokers, etc. will go out of business!
It don't care if the quality of the matches goes down...... I'm just sick of subsidizing other countries excess tennis talent!
Maybe if they don't have a place to train for free, maybe they will choose a different sport!
And maybe if tennis is really worth saving, than the USA supply will rise!
If not, let's not subsidize a dying sport with internationals and Uncle Sam's free money train!
 
I see this as a purely Supply and Demand situation.

As long a colleges can dip into an endless international pool for tennis talent, which keeps the supply high...... than why should USA care to improve supply here.
Yes the USA will be some tinkering around the edges to make it easier to USA talent, through better ranking and more tournaments but the tidal wave of free loading internationals WILL NEVER END because there are addicted to Uncle Sam's money!!!

I say, the only solution is to REMOVE TENNIS FROM ALL UNIVERSITIES and let it stand on its own.
Immediately all these international: clubs , recruitment brokers, etc. will go out of business!
It don't care if the quality of the matches goes down...... I'm just sick of subsidizing other countries excess tennis talent!
Maybe if they don't have a place to train for free, maybe they will choose a different sport!
And maybe if tennis is really worth saving, than the USA supply will rise!
If not, let's not subsidize a dying sport with internationals and Uncle Sam's free money train!
Great solution to save college tennis. Eliminate it. I'm sure a group of people who spend their time browsing a college tennis forum will jump on board with this idea.
 

tennisjunky

Rookie
Simple supply and demand.

If we don't have the supply (at a certian level) than why waste money and create it artificially.
Is there really a demand for college tennis? My gut feeling is no.
They only seem to keep it around for Title V reasons.
Sad to say but I believe this is true.

Saving college tennis by importing a supply is NOT the answer!!!
 

andfor

Legend
Not going to have this conversation again. Will say it one last time. there’s plenty of tennis scholarships for U.S. kids who want to play college tennis. Not everyone can play at a Big 5 conference school, foreign players or not.


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toby55555

Hall of Fame
One of the most commented-on articles at ParentingAces.com (84 posts) addressed this very issue, and features a lot of countervailing opinions. Some were very well thought out. Link below.

http://parentingaces.com/abuse-of-american-generosity/[/

Plenty of foreign students in top British University rowing crews. It keeps the standard strong to maintain viewing audiences at a time of year when there are plenty of other distractions.
 

tennisjunky

Rookie
I've read this article before and its still good.
I concur when they say, "I am an American, and believe that we, as Americans, should promote our kids first." PERIOD PERDIOD PERDIOD!!!!
If these foriegners can't get a gig in their home country..... maybe they should pick up another sport and stay in their own country.
 

MarTennis

Semi-Pro
Finally someone with some sense! Seems like the people that gripe the loudest are parents of the mediocre players that think their son or daughter should play at the college of their choice and be on a large scholarship. These same parents think it's their right because they paid the bills during junior tennis and don't want the foreign players taking their kids spots and money. What a joke! I know why some coaches like international kids, no coach will admit it publicly but it is well known, because american parents are a pain in the butt. Not all of them but quite a few want to insert themselves into the program unnecessarily. Trust me, coaches know it's a headache to deal with. The chance a foreign players parents are going to be an issue is very small.
tennis parents and Tennis kids don't get the reality talk soon enough that allows them to change course or plan accordingly. UCLA's Billy Martin delivered the reality check talk to my child when he was 10. In hindsight, it was one of the most important things we found out about junior tennis transition to college tennis. What did Martin say? he said, "if you want to play for UCLA you should be one of the top 10 players in the nation." He fell short of UCLA, but did fine finding a coach and school that wanted him, in part because he had a clue early on.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
tennis parents and Tennis kids don't get the reality talk soon enough that allows them to change course or plan accordingly. UCLA's Billy Martin delivered the reality check talk to my child when he was 10. In hindsight, it was one of the most important things we found out about junior tennis transition to college tennis. What did Martin say? he said, "if you want to play for UCLA you should be one of the top 10 players in the nation." He fell short of UCLA, but did fine finding a coach and school that wanted him, in part because he had a clue early on.
Ironically, UCLA has done quite well recently in developing 5-star recruits into top-notch players. Evan Zhu, Austin Rapp come to mind.
 
I've heard numerous times that the the Americans don't work as hard as players from other countries. its nearly impossible for tennis to get the top athletes. what incentive is there for a kid to commit to tennis?
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
I've heard numerous times that the the Americans don't work as hard as players from other countries. its nearly impossible for tennis to get the top athletes. what incentive is there for a kid to commit to tennis?
Kids commit to tennis b/c they are passionate about the sport; they may have played multiple sports but tennis was their favorite in spite of the fact it is a lot harder to earn money playing tennis. Even JJ Wolf played soccer at a high level until 15. While few US players may be at the level to play UCLA, there are plenty of tennis roster spots if players are open to MM D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JUCO, etc. Most players are smart enough to realize they aren't turning pro post college, and many balance academics, tennis, and social life while earning and keeping merit and/or athletic scholarships.

US companies are looking for applicants who exhibit leadership and teamwork for summer internships and fulltime jobs post graduation. They like students who played athletics and maintained a high GPA. The incentive-you can play the sport you love in college and pursue your career path. Tennis may be the route to earn admission to a very selective D3 school-players still have to academic stars as well, but playing a sport might get them in a school with 8-20% admission rate. Being on a team with international players will help later in business as they deal with people from different cultures.
 
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Kids commit to tennis b/c they are passionate about the sport; they may have played multiple sports but tennis was their favorite in spite of the fact it is a lot harder to earn money playing tennis. Even JJ Wolf played soccer at a high level until 15. While few US players may be at the level to play UCLA, there are plenty of tennis roster spots if players are open to MM D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JUCO, etc. Most players are smart enough to realize they aren't turning pro post college, and many balance academics, tennis, and social life while earning and keeping merit and/or athletic scholarships.

US companies are looking for applicants who exhibit leadership and teamwork for summer internships and fulltime jobs post graduation. They like students who played athletics and maintained a high GPA. The incentive-you can play the sport you love in college and pursue your career path. Tennis may be the route to earn admission to a very selective D3 school-players still have to academic stars as well, but playing a sport might get them in a school with 8-20% admission rate. Being on a team with international players will help later in business as they deal with people from different cultures.
This is all, absolutely, correct.
 

MarTennis

Semi-Pro
I've heard numerous times that the the Americans don't work as hard as players from other countries. its nearly impossible for tennis to get the top athletes. what incentive is there for a kid to commit to tennis?
You gotta love it. Same as a kid that loves basketball. However, I think that tennis requires an almost zealot like cultivation of that love.
 
Kids commit to tennis b/c they are passionate about the sport; they may have played multiple sports but tennis was their favorite in spite of the fact it is a lot harder to earn money playing tennis. Even JJ Wolf played soccer at a high level until 15. While few US players may be at the level to play UCLA, there are plenty of tennis roster spots if players are open to MM D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JUCO, etc. Most players are smart enough to realize they aren't turning pro post college, and many balance academics, tennis, and social life while earning and keeping merit and/or athletic scholarships.

US companies are looking for applicants who exhibit leadership and teamwork for summer internships and fulltime jobs post graduation. They like students who played athletics and maintained a high GPA. The incentive-you can play the sport you love in college and pursue your career path. Tennis may be the route to earn admission to a very selective D3 school-players still have to academic stars as well, but playing a sport might get them in a school with 8-20% admission rate. Being on a team with international players will help later in business as they deal with people from different cultures.
Thanks for the reply. Tennis is basically a lonely sport without the big crowds. I know some schools draw well but most don't. Everybody would pay to see the top big 3 sport players in high school. In tennis, no one would. You don't have to play tennis to experience other cultures.
 

Okes

New User
Thanks for the reply. Tennis is basically a lonely sport without the big crowds. I know some schools draw well but most don't. Everybody would pay to see the top big 3 sport players in high school. In tennis, no one would. You don't have to play tennis to experience other cultures.
If you are so negative on tennis, why are you looking at this site?
 
If you are so negative on tennis, why are you looking at this site?
i'm a realist. I've been playing for a long time. I love the sport but there has to a better way to bring more attention and get better athletes. The pro side of the house is bad as well, th rank and file players don't get enough money. I would suggest reading what Vasek Popisil thoughts on it. I guess i'm looking at it from business perspective. Everything in life is not pretty. Go read the comments about league play etc if you want true negativity.
 

Nacho

Professional
Seen some of the back and forth, and a few things to add to what has been said above

I've heard numerous times that the the Americans don't work as hard as players from other countries. its nearly impossible for tennis to get the top athletes. what incentive is there for a kid to commit to tennis?
I have heard this as well, but I don't agree with it as all and think it is just an easy stigma to associate. Its not a work ethic issue it is an availability of sport issue. The core sports of Baseball, Football, Basketball, and now Lacrosse are well supported locally, and financed mostly through the High Schools themselves. These sports have their overseeing body issues as well, but for the kid wanting to get into a sport those sports are highly competitive locally, highly promoted, and have lots of money backing them. Hell, look at the little league baseball World Series, it makes the ESPN highlights and telecasts! It's absolutely boring to watch, but it's got the money backing to promote it. Tennis is like this in many other countries, which puts American players at a disadvantage. Prior to the 1990's tennis enjoyed a boom and thus there were many players out there in American tennis, but between the ATP, ITF, USTA, and other associations much of the opportunity has been squashed, facilitated by a rise in foreign players to the sport. Former Soviet states had a influx of people turning to tennis with less regulated systems that allowed for growth. And now Asia has gotten into the tennis market so their players are starting to make their mark. At this point the US market has just fallen behind, and will probably never be as dominant as it once was.

Tennis is an amazing sport, and suits potential athletes who thrive in an individual athletic sport. But if you are a top Athlete, why would you go into a sport where less then 100 players in the world make any sort of living? And a small one at that, traveling around the world grinding it out in Challenger tournaments? 4000 professional baseball players do much better without having to leave the US. And for scholarships, those just don't exist in tennis to make it worthwhile. Many reasons for this, but it stunts the growth of Jr' players who would give it a shot.

there has to a better way to bring more attention and get better athletes
Lots of great ideas out there and now some players speaking out. Many people are speaking out against the USTA and their programs. And the Elephant in the room is the Gambling industry, which the ITF is now beholden to. This arrangement is affecting the ATP/WTA, with all the different country associations trying to get their piece of it. This includes the ITA, which is why you see things like 1 set doubles and no-ad scoring. For the US, scholarships dedicated to the sport would help, but if local coaches and academies are given more freedom to train and coach the local kids, run tournaments, and create better localized competition it would create a vast network of American players. More American players in the top would drive more fans out, no doubt about it. I have always felt that High School tennis could take over some of the tournament organizing from the USTA, and that programs bridging Jr players to life after Jr and college tennis would go along way to helping good players stick with the sport. There is a generation of players from age 18-35 that have no idea how to stay involved with tennis, and in many cases just disappear from the sport altogether.

th rank and file players don't get enough money
I have always thought that a system where players play individually, but play for an organized sponsorship team, similar to like NASCAR, might be a good way to go to promote events and organize their time. This is sort of what was happening with the WTA and Grand Prix of the 70's early 80's, and really drove a lot of the local fan fare and pro tournaments. But I don't see the ATP or anyone ever giving up their stake in this, so it is what it is...No fans at events, and all the money coming from gambling. Its depressing to see this happen.
 
Seen some of the back and forth, and a few things to add to what has been said above



I have heard this as well, but I don't agree with it as all and think it is just an easy stigma to associate. Its not a work ethic issue it is an availability of sport issue. The core sports of Baseball, Football, Basketball, and now Lacrosse are well supported locally, and financed mostly through the High Schools themselves. These sports have their overseeing body issues as well, but for the kid wanting to get into a sport those sports are highly competitive locally, highly promoted, and have lots of money backing them. Hell, look at the little league baseball World Series, it makes the ESPN highlights and telecasts! It's absolutely boring to watch, but it's got the money backing to promote it. Tennis is like this in many other countries, which puts American players at a disadvantage. Prior to the 1990's tennis enjoyed a boom and thus there were many players out there in American tennis, but between the ATP, ITF, USTA, and other associations much of the opportunity has been squashed, facilitated by a rise in foreign players to the sport. Former Soviet states had a influx of people turning to tennis with less regulated systems that allowed for growth. And now Asia has gotten into the tennis market so their players are starting to make their mark. At this point the US market has just fallen behind, and will probably never be as dominant as it once was.

Tennis is an amazing sport, and suits potential athletes who thrive in an individual athletic sport. But if you are a top Athlete, why would you go into a sport where less then 100 players in the world make any sort of living? And a small one at that, traveling around the world grinding it out in Challenger tournaments? 4000 professional baseball players do much better without having to leave the US. And for scholarships, those just don't exist in tennis to make it worthwhile. Many reasons for this, but it stunts the growth of Jr' players who would give it a shot.



Lots of great ideas out there and now some players speaking out. Many people are speaking out against the USTA and their programs. And the Elephant in the room is the Gambling industry, which the ITF is now beholden to. This arrangement is affecting the ATP/WTA, with all the different country associations trying to get their piece of it. This includes the ITA, which is why you see things like 1 set doubles and no-ad scoring. For the US, scholarships dedicated to the sport would help, but if local coaches and academies are given more freedom to train and coach the local kids, run tournaments, and create better localized competition it would create a vast network of American players. More American players in the top would drive more fans out, no doubt about it. I have always felt that High School tennis could take over some of the tournament organizing from the USTA, and that programs bridging Jr players to life after Jr and college tennis would go along way to helping good players stick with the sport. There is a generation of players from age 18-35 that have no idea how to stay involved with tennis, and in many cases just disappear from the sport altogether.



I have always thought that a system where players play individually, but play for an organized sponsorship team, similar to like NASCAR, might be a good way to go to promote events and organize their time. This is sort of what was happening with the WTA and Grand Prix of the 70's early 80's, and really drove a lot of the local fan fare and pro tournaments. But I don't see the ATP or anyone ever giving up their stake in this, so it is what it is...No fans at events, and all the money coming from gambling. Its depressing to see this happen.

I agree with you. I've read stories where both lower rank players are paid to split the first two sets and just play the third out. its appears to be a win for everybody. The challenger tournaments need to offer some type of per diem, You are going on a business trip, you should be paid as such, according Vasek Popisil, the players are only getting a small part of the revenue form tournaments. i think its the smallest in sports.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
Thanks for the reply. Tennis is basically a lonely sport without the big crowds. I know some schools draw well but most don't. Everybody would pay to see the top big 3 sport players in high school. In tennis, no one would. You don't have to play tennis to experience other cultures.

Pretty much the stands at our high school tennis matches. You don't have but a few of the friedns of kids coming to watch, but the big 3 sports are promoted like crazy. The nature of a select sport over team sports. But this is true up throgh pro level for tennis. Even college tennis, ITF challengers and pro circuit events don't draw crowds to make a lot of $$$ compared to pro events.

 

andfor

Legend
Pretty much the stands at our high school tennis matches. You don't have but a few of the friedns of kids coming to watch, but the big 3 sports are promoted like crazy. The nature of a select sport over team sports. But this is true up throgh pro level for tennis. Even college tennis, ITF challengers and pro circuit events don't draw crowds to make a lot of $$$ compared to pro events.

With exceptions here and there, this has been the case since I played HS and college tennis back in the 80's.
 

Nacho

Professional
Pretty much the stands at our high school tennis matches. You don't have but a few of the friedns of kids coming to watch, but the big 3 sports are promoted like crazy. The nature of a select sport over team sports. But this is true up throgh pro level for tennis. Even college tennis, ITF challengers and pro circuit events don't draw crowds to make a lot of $$$ compared to pro events.

Funny, but depressing photo. Pretty much has been like this forever, again, high school tennis lacks any support and is treated like a recreation sport by most schools. Especially in area where they have no-cut policies. Its just an after-school activity. And in most cases the best players don't participate. Much bigger crowds at things like Kalamazoo or National tournaments....gotta be a way to merge the two
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
Funny, but depressing photo. Pretty much has been like this forever, again, high school tennis lacks any support and is treated like a recreation sport by most schools. Especially in area where they have no-cut policies. Its just an after-school activity. And in most cases the best players don't participate. Much bigger crowds at things like Kalamazoo or National tournaments....gotta be a way to merge the two

For sure. As much as we always have some top few varsity who play good matches, down the list isn't as exciting. But I've seen plenty of college matches where the stands are a little more filled, but it's all family and friends. Even for the $25K we have at Surprise that is FREE or as little as $5 for the last few days, with the likes of Gorgi, Bellis, just saw Kenin, and Bouchard,...or the revamp of the AZ ITF after Indian Wells that had Gofin, Ryan Harrison and many others...you just don't see large crowds for the amazing tennis.

Anyway...back to foreign players. I digress! :censored:
 
For sure. As much as we always have some top few varsity who play good matches, down the list isn't as exciting. But I've seen plenty of college matches where the stands are a little more filled, but it's all family and friends. Even for the $25K we have at Surprise that is FREE or as little as $5 for the last few days, with the likes of Gorgi, Bellis, just saw Kenin, and Bouchard,...or the revamp of the AZ ITF after Indian Wells that had Gofin, Ryan Harrison and many others...you just don't see large crowds for the amazing tennis.

Anyway...back to foreign players. I digress! :censored:

Honestly I don't have a answer to make tennis more appealing. i do think the lack of structure (No refs), is a deterrent. It's the sport in high school of last resort.
 
Honestly I don't have a answer to make tennis more appealing. i do think the lack of structure (No refs), is a deterrent. It's the sport in high school of last resort.
Honestly, I do not care much about HS sports like football, basketball, soccer. The area where I live, tennis and golf are king because they are considered "rich" people sports, for the wealthy and affluent. Tennis and golf are "networking" sports and they are very competitive for private HS where I live. Kids that play tennis and/or golf drive Mercedes, BMW, Lexus or Audi while kids that play football, basketball or soccer drive Ford Focus, Toyota or Honda Accord. At the end of the season, kids that play golf or tennis celebrate season end at Morton Steak house while football, basketball or soccer celebrate season end at Chick-Fil-A.
 
Honestly, I do not care much about HS sports like football, basketball, soccer. The area where I live, tennis and golf are king because they are considered "rich" people sports, for the wealthy and affluent. Tennis and golf are "networking" sports and they are very competitive for private HS where I live. Kids that play tennis and/or golf drive Mercedes, BMW, Lexus or Audi while kids that play football, basketball or soccer drive Ford Focus, Toyota or Honda Accord. At the end of the season, kids that play golf or tennis celebrate season end at Morton Steak house while football, basketball or soccer celebrate season end at Chick-Fil-A.
and your point is what exactly? You just said that HS golf and tennis were King but nobody watches.
 
My point is that the general HS population students do not have the knowledge to understand tennis and golf. It is because their families do not have the resource to guide them toward tennis or golf. Tennis and golf parents understand the end game is "networking" and get good jobs after college, climb the corporate ladder. They don't care if nobody watches tennis or golf.
 

andfor

Legend
If you think it is bad with HS tennis, it is even worse with HS golf. No one there to watch except family members.
Again, this has been going on since the beginning of time. I don't consider sparse attendance as a bad thing, but an opportunity for growth. Most all sports are currently seeing youth participation levels contracting. Decreasing participation rates are mostly due to costs, sport specialization and limited HS roster spots on the larger team sports, FB, BB, Baseball, SB and VB.

Tennis as an individual sport presents a unique opportunity to learn, play and grow within a game that does not require a large team or making a team to participate. We know HS and colleges have tennis teams. Many HS tennis teams have a no-cut policy differentiating the sport from the rest of team sports that have roster limitations. My HS team back in the 80's had a no-cut policy which I agree with. We were fortunate enough to have 10 tennis courts and a coach that would work with everyone.

Tennis needs deeper participation at the youth and grass roots levels for long term success. The USTA needs to figure out how to cut their bloat and realize the full potential of their revenues generated by membership and the US Open. Hopefully they will capitalize on real growth initiatives to provide youth an activity for a lifetime. The time now is no better that its ever been to really grow the game. Unfortunately the catalyst to make growth happen has to begin with the USTA that is structured much like an old world bureaucracy. They have a new president Pat Galbraith, hopefully youth, new player participation along with infrastructure improvement is a top initiative and he can help figure it out.
 
My point is that the general HS population students do not have the knowledge to understand tennis and golf. It is because their families do not have the resource to guide them toward tennis or golf. Tennis and golf parents understand the end game is "networking" and get good jobs after college, climb the corporate ladder. They don't care if nobody watches tennis or golf.
seriously, that's such an pompous and arrogant answer. High School students have the knowledge to understand tennis and golf and that nobody plays. That's why the interest is not there. You can always pick up golf when you are out of athletic options. I love tennis, been play been playing 45 years. Team sports teaches you more.

That's the point the grass roots, who wants to lay sort where nobody watches. That pretty easy to understand. The USTA is just collecting a paycheck for most part for league tennis etc.
 
seriously, that's such an pompous and arrogant answer. High School students have the knowledge to understand tennis and golf and that nobody plays. That's why the interest is not there. You can always pick up golf when you are out of athletic options. I love tennis, been play been playing 45 years. Team sports teaches you more.

That's the point the grass roots, who wants to lay sort where nobody watches. That pretty easy to understand. The USTA is just collecting a paycheck for most part for league tennis etc.
I don't know where you live in the US but here in the so called DMV (DC, Maryland and Virginia), everyone knows that tennis and golf are at the top of the food chains. In other word, you need to have money to play tennis and golf because they are an expensive sport and the average family just simply can not afford them. The private school where my son goes to, it is a school where people have $$$ send their kids to, golf and tennis are one of the so called "cut" sports and they only take 12 kids for tennis and probably less for golf. So many kids from this private school belong to country clubs and have their own private coaches in either golf or tennis or both. Because golf is a fall sport and tennis is spring sport so there are so many kids try out for both golf and tennis and they have to cut them. Here is how much it cost my son for his tennis, during the school year:

- tennis lesson 2 hours a week at the cost of $250 per week
- membership at a health club at the cost of $300/month for the family,
- physical training once a week at the cost of $75 per week,
- tennis clinic twice a week at the cost of $120 per week.
- tennis string and stringer at the cost of $75 per week,
- cost of shoes and eight racquets,
- in the winter time, it cost about 30/hour for tennis court x4 hours per week for three months,

For golf, it costs even much more that I really don't want to think about. That's why people with average income just simply can't afford it for their kids. It is a sad reality but true.

In wealthy and affluent places, tennis and golf are popular because people there can afford it and they play the long term game such as social and career networking. They don't care if there aren't many "average" people play. They prefer to keep it that way. Speaking of tennis, try out for girl varsity tennis starts tomorrow here at private schools here in the DMV.
 
I don't know where you live in the US but here in the so called DMV (DC, Maryland and Virginia), everyone knows that tennis and golf are at the top of the food chains. In other word, you need to have money to play tennis and golf because they are an expensive sport and the average family just simply can not afford them. The private school where my son goes to, it is a school where people have $$$ send their kids to, golf and tennis are one of the so called "cut" sports and they only take 12 kids for tennis and probably less for golf. So many kids from this private school belong to country clubs and have their own private coaches in either golf or tennis or both. Because golf is a fall sport and tennis is spring sport so there are so many kids try out for both golf and tennis and they have to cut them. Here is how much it cost my son for his tennis, during the school year:

- tennis lesson 2 hours a week at the cost of $250 per week
- membership at a health club at the cost of $300/month for the family,
- physical training once a week at the cost of $75 per week,
- tennis clinic twice a week at the cost of $120 per week.
- tennis string and stringer at the cost of $75 per week,
- cost of shoes and eight racquets,
- in the winter time, it cost about 30/hour for tennis court x4 hours per week for three months,

For golf, it costs even much more that I really don't want to think about. That's why people with average income just simply can't afford it for their kids. It is a sad reality but true.

In wealthy and affluent places, tennis and golf are popular because people there can afford it and they play the long term game such as social and career networking. They don't care if there aren't many "average" people play. They prefer to keep it that way. Speaking of tennis, try out for girl varsity tennis starts tomorrow here at private schools here in the DMV.

I have lived in the DMV since 1981, trust me I know how the tennis community works. I'm sorry but tennis and golf are not at the top of the food chains. You must live in a very isolated world. One of my biggest regrets is not learning how to string as a teenager. That extra money would have been nice. Your last statement about "average" people is exactly my point. You actually said that "they" prefer to keep it that way. Your statements could be misconstrued as racist. I believe the USTA is actually trying, but they need to do better. its obvious people like you want to hold on to the white traditions of the sport. I think the racquet number is inflated.
 
I have lived in the DMV since 1981, trust me I know how the tennis community works. I'm sorry but tennis and golf are not at the top of the food chains. You must live in a very isolated world. One of my biggest regrets is not learning how to string as a teenager. That extra money would have been nice. Your last statement about "average" people is exactly my point. You actually said that "they" prefer to keep it that way. Your statements could be misconstrued as racist. I believe the USTA is actually trying, but they need to do better. its obvious people like you want to hold on to the white traditions of the sport. I think the racquet number is inflated.
Please keep race off the discussion. It is not very helpful and I am a 1st generation immigrant from Asia.

I guess I must live in the very isolated world of Potomac Maryland where people don't care much about other sports other than tennis and golf. Just about everyone in this area belong to either Congressional or Riverbend Country Club, and send their kids to private schools. Tennis is a sport for the wealthy in Potomac Maryland. Kids in that area do not string their own racquets. That is done by professional stringer. How do you think tennis places like 4Star and JTCC make its money?
 
Please keep race off the discussion. It is not very helpful and I am a 1st generation immigrant from Asia.

I guess I must live in the very isolated world of Potomac Maryland where people don't care much about other sports other than tennis and golf. Just about everyone in this area belong to either Congressional or Riverbend Country Club, and send their kids to private schools. Tennis is a sport for the wealthy in Potomac Maryland. Kids in that area do not string their own racquets. That is done by professional stringer. How do you think tennis places like 4Star and JTCC make its money?
You were implicitly implying race be referring to "they" "and "them". I'm an African-American that has been here my entire life. Yes, your world is isolated. My point is that tennis and gold are not popular among the youth. I'm happy that you are wealthy and love to flaunt it. The general understanding comment by you was just horrible. You basically said you have to be wealthy to understand tennis and golf. Ask the Williams sisters or almost any top player about that. You sound like a typical elitist. The kids should learn how to string their own racquet.
 

Nacho

Professional
For sure. As much as we always have some top few varsity who play good matches, down the list isn't as exciting. But I've seen plenty of college matches where the stands are a little more filled, but it's all family and friends. Even for the $25K we have at Surprise that is FREE or as little as $5 for the last few days, with the likes of Gorgi, Bellis, just saw Kenin, and Bouchard,...or the revamp of the AZ ITF after Indian Wells that had Gofin, Ryan Harrison and many others...you just don't see large crowds for the amazing tennis.

Anyway...back to foreign players. I digress! :censored:
The lack of people in the stands is just shameful. The Challenger events are basically empty, its the best kept secret! There are even Americans in these events, so it has nothing to do with foreign players. The issue at hand is that these events are set up with zero promotion, because the money they (the various tours and ITF) make by holding them is all through gambling. So they don't need to promote them. And for the players that need points for seeding they shlep out to these tournaments. Getting so bad that people are starting not to show for even the bigger events. What is also shameful is that the powers that be think that changing the game will make it more appealing, so things like no-ad scoring and 10pt tiebreaks are pushed. The powers that be blame the fans, but they have no one but themselves to blame.

There is no free-market for tennis anymore, as there was prior to the late 80's, so its top down implementation. No competing tours, no associations on the local level, no tournaments that have any heritage except the slams, no one competing to promote the sport. The seeds were sown long ago and we are seeing it now.
 
The lack of people in the stands is just shameful. The Challenger events are basically empty, its the best kept secret! There are even Americans in these events, so it has nothing to do with foreign players. The issue at hand is that these events are set up with zero promotion, because the money they (the various tours and ITF) make by holding them is all through gambling. So they don't need to promote them. And for the players that need points for seeding they shlep out to these tournaments. Getting so bad that people are starting not to show for even the bigger events. What is also shameful is that the powers that be think that changing the game will make it more appealing, so things like no-ad scoring and 10pt tiebreaks are pushed. The powers that be blame the fans, but they have no one but themselves to blame.

There is no free-market for tennis anymore, as there was prior to the late 80's, so its top down implementation. No competing tours, no associations on the local level, no tournaments that have any heritage except the slams, no one competing to promote the sport. The seeds were sown long ago and we are seeing it now.

Good stuff, could it be that tennis just not popular anymore? I've asked friends if they wanted to go to Challenger events and they always say no. according to Vasek Popisil, the players need a bigger cut of the pie. otherwise, I don't have an answer.
 

andfor

Legend
The lack of people in the stands is just shameful. The Challenger events are basically empty, its the best kept secret! There are even Americans in these events, so it has nothing to do with foreign players. The issue at hand is that these events are set up with zero promotion, because the money they (the various tours and ITF) make by holding them is all through gambling. So they don't need to promote them. And for the players that need points for seeding they shlep out to these tournaments. Getting so bad that people are starting not to show for even the bigger events. What is also shameful is that the powers that be think that changing the game will make it more appealing, so things like no-ad scoring and 10pt tiebreaks are pushed. The powers that be blame the fans, but they have no one but themselves to blame.

There is no free-market for tennis anymore, as there was prior to the late 80's, so its top down implementation. No competing tours, no associations on the local level, no tournaments that have any heritage except the slams, no one competing to promote the sport. The seeds were sown long ago and we are seeing it now.
Probably an anomaly, but went to the Memphis Futures finals Saturday in Southaven, MS. Roberto Cid versus Ulysses Blanch. There had to be about 200+ spectators there. Great match Cid winning 7-6 in the 3rd. Also was there for quaterfinals Wednesday night with a small crowd. For a Futures tourney not bad small crowds attended.

Competing tours could make tennis irrelevant like boxing. Maybe one new tour to compete against the ATP may work. I'm afraid that concept may be presented with gimmicks like shortened scoring match tie-breaks etc.

For those following Vlasak Popisil he's right, the ATP needs to use more revenues spread deeper to more players. The USTA needs to cut bloat and use their massive revenues more efficiently to allow cost effective entry to the game for better growth.

Tennis is not the only sport with attendance and grass roots growth issues right now. But it is the game most of us here love.
 

NaBUru38

Rookie
I have always thought that a system where players play individually, but play for an organized sponsorship team, similar to like NASCAR, might be a good way to go to promote events and organize their time.
World TeamTennis is still active.

Back to college tennis, the big conference teams rely on donors. They want the best players they can get, and they want to play versus the most prestigious rivals.

If colleges want to reduce costs, they can join single-sport conferences. Volleyball, lacrosse and ice hockey hace those.
 
World TeamTennis is still active.

Back to college tennis, the big conference teams rely on donors. They want the best players they can get, and they want to play versus the most prestigious rivals.

If colleges want to reduce costs, they can join single-sport conferences. Volleyball, lacrosse and ice hockey hace those.
I'm not even counting World Team Tennis. There has to be a way to get people to spend money on watching college matches. I hate that matches are stopped if the team outcome has already been decided.
 
You were implicitly implying race be referring to "they" "and "them". I'm an African-American that has been here my entire life. Yes, your world is isolated. My point is that tennis and gold are not popular among the youth. I'm happy that you are wealthy and love to flaunt it. The general understanding comment by you was just horrible. You basically said you have to be wealthy to understand tennis and golf. Ask the Williams sisters or almost any top player about that. You sound like a typical elitist. The kids should learn how to string their own racquet.
You sound like you live with a chip on your shoulder. You will live better without it.

No my world is not isolated. Everyone who live in Potomac Maryland, Mclean or Great Falls Virginia live the same way I live. What you called "flaunt" it, people call it "standard" of living in those areas where tennis and golf rules. Why do you think Congressional and Riverbend CC are located in those areas?

Just because Jeremy Lin plays in the NBA means that Asians should send their kids to take BB. Just because the Williams sisters are famous tennis players means AA girls and boys will take up tennis. Tennis is an expensive sport. Have you been to any Jr. USTA tournaments? How many AA, either male or female players do you see? The USTA jr. are dominated by white, Asians and Indians kids, FYI.
 
You sound like you live with a chip on your shoulder. You will live better without it.

No my world is not isolated. Everyone who live in Potomac Maryland, Mclean or Great Falls Virginia live the same way I live. What you called "flaunt" it, people call it "standard" of living in those areas where tennis and golf rules. Why do you think Congressional and Riverbend CC are located in those areas?

Just because Jeremy Lin plays in the NBA means that Asians should send their kids to take BB. Just because the Williams sisters are famous tennis players means AA girls and boys will take up tennis. Tennis is an expensive sport. Have you been to any Jr. USTA tournaments? How many AA, either male or female players do you see? The USTA jr. are dominated by white, Asians and Indians kids, FYI.
Please don't tell me how I should live. I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Your world is isolated period. Just pointing out the facts. Your analogies are just horrible. Yes, I have been to Jr USTA tournaments. Do you ever go to tournaments when your kid is not playing? The answer is most likely no. The only people that are there are the parents. I'm willing to bet that most will never be a successful pro. You can always network doing almost anything. I've been around long enough to know when people criticize you, they are actually talking about themselves. it appears that you are "they" or "them". Your comments about your wealth are just tacky at best. Most wealthy people don't try to flaunt their wealth with condescending remarks.
 

Nacho

Professional
Good stuff, could it be that tennis just not popular anymore?
I think the popularity is relative to the amount of people playing. That has declined greatly, so the interest in professional tennis is likewise. Tennis isn't the only sport with participation and viewer issues. Amazingly, Football is having similar problems despite its appeal. Participation is way down, and stadiums at all levels have trouble staying full like they once did. Its why so many conferences are allowing alcohol sales now as they are trying to fill the stands. Outside of the big programs many schools are in the red with their football programs, and NFL teams are struggling to fill their stadiums. Same in other sports here in the US, so I don't believe its a tennis problem. However, a lack of strong American players on the tour, compared to the 70's and 80's, has certainly not given the recreation public in the US anyone to cheer for. A casual fan just isn't going to show up

Competing tours could make tennis irrelevant like boxing. Maybe one new tour to compete against the ATP may work. I'm afraid that concept may be presented with gimmicks like shortened scoring match tie-breaks etc.
Hard to say. I am thinking they might push each other to promote and manage the system of playing better. May give more opportunities to compete. I guess I am thinking of it like the WTA/Grand Prix of the 70's/80's. Lots of tournaments all around the US, and lots of guys competing usually one tour over the other. Right now it is all dictated through the ITF-ATP/WTA, with the different associations wanting their piece. There is just something about this setup that doesn't require them to care. And as the ITF is making a big proportion of their money through their gambling alliance, why bother promoting some challenger event. Money is coming from matches being played, not from fans in the stands, so there is no stake in putting out a good product.

For those following Vlasak Popisil he's right, the ATP needs to use more revenues spread deeper to more players. The USTA needs to cut bloat and use their massive revenues more efficiently to allow cost effective entry to the game for better growth.
Tons of issues with the USTA management, and so many people calling it out. They've been calling them out for Years! Can't believe they are a non-profit

Tennis is not the only sport with attendance and grass roots growth issues right now. But it is the game most of us here love.
100% agree....As I stated above, football is having problems, baseball has for years...lots of sports with attendance issues

Probably an anomaly, but went to the Memphis Futures finals Saturday in Southaven, MS. Roberto Cid versus Ulysses Blanch. There had to be about 200+ spectators there. Great match Cid winning 7-6 in the 3rd. Also was there for quaterfinals Wednesday night with a small crowd. For a Futures tourney not bad small crowds attended.
Thats pretty good. It was the finals though, on a weekend I assume. I bet the Monday through Friday matches were tumbleweeds
 
Please don't tell me how I should live. I don't have a chip on my shoulder. Your world is isolated period. Just pointing out the facts. Your analogies are just horrible. Yes, I have been to Jr USTA tournaments. Do you ever go to tournaments when your kid is not playing? The answer is most likely no. The only people that are there are the parents. I'm willing to bet that most will never be a successful pro. You can always network doing almost anything. I've been around long enough to know when people criticize you, they are actually talking about themselves. it appears that you are "they" or "them". Your comments about your wealth are just tacky at best. Most wealthy people don't try to flaunt their wealth with condescending remarks.
You definitely live with a chip on your shoulder. Where did I flaunt my wealth? I am not even wealthy I just simply pointed out that tennis is an expensive sport. That's what most people in Potomac, Mclean and Great falls do.

Yes, I am currently at JTCC in college park to watch the Jr. ITF tournament and my kid is not even playing there. There are ver few AA players in the tournament. It reflects the fact that tennis is an expensive sport.

You need to get out more often to see how other people live.
 
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