Foreign utr tricks and cheating.

[Tennis2349]

https://imgur.com/a/ksdtr9e

https://imgur.com/a/f7QUX2H

Randomly looked at some recent battle of Boca results.

Was surprised that a 10.3 from Sweden only played 5 matches in his life! Just started 2 weeks ago apparently.

Then I look up a similar name, and same kid from Sweden just ended his career 2 weeks ago as a 9.2 utr , at battle of Boca! Jus added middle name to new profile. Went up over 1 utr point in 2 weeks!

So Whats the point?

Interesting how many foreign 12 utr juniors only played about 100 recorded matches in their entire junior career. An American at that level would be around 600-900 utr matches. I know 12 year olds that played 300.

Once UTR restarts they can almost always quickly gain a point, while then also being grouped with higher utrs. After paying your recruiter 10-15k you are set to play us college tennis!

That’s why we have 65 percent foreign. It’s not that they “are better” or, “Americans won’t play for those schools”.

Utr tricks and paying agencies is another factor that plays a role.

 

[ClarkC]

And American coaches will never figure out that the UTR rankings are all trickery, so this will go on forever? Not credible.

 

[Tennis2349]

And American coaches will never figure out that the UTR rankings are all trickery, so this will go on forever? Not credible.

Yes to an extent they are. Huge difference in being recruited if you are a 12 over a 11.3. Etc. Im not saying these kids never played before.

Let me put it this way…

The player “starting over” might actually be playing at his new level. It’s just 10 times harder to get there if you are grouped playing with lower utr’s.

No way all the 17-18 yr old junior euro players only played 100 to 150 matches in their lifetime.

You realize coaches are signing these kids based on the word of recruiters in most cases. They aren’t flying around the world to meet all of them.

 

[Tennis2349]

And American coaches will never figure out that the UTR rankings are all trickery, so this will go on forever? Not credible.

What is there to figure out?

I know a local kid tha was stuck at 11.4.

He switched to playing international ITF. So he was able to finally play much higher utr. He is now 12.9.

If he was in Atlanta playing a 12 once every 6 months his actual skill level might be the exact same , but he would be 1.5 points lower and most likely overlooked.

 

[ClarkC]

What is there to figure out?

I know a local kid tha was stuck at 11.4.

He switched to playing international ITF. So he was able to finally play much higher utr. He is now 12.9.

If he was in Atlanta playing a 12 once every 6 months his actual skill level might be the exact same , but he would be 1.5 points lower and most likely overlooked.

That would be an example of what there is to figure out.

 

[andfor]

Duplicate profiles can be reported to UTR then merged.

 

[Tennis2349]

That would be an example of what there is to figure out.

Same kid. Same game. Same playing style. Same build. Same height. Same mental game. Same serve. Etc etc.

If you saw him play with zero info you couldn’t possibly know what his utr was.

If he has the time and money to travel the world playing junior ITF he will have a higher utr. Same skill level.

If he stays local playing USTA he will be a mid 11.

Kids are not directly playing each other to make a college team. They are selected based off a number. A number that can vary by a point or 2 depending on who they played.

 

[ClarkC]

Same kid. Same game. Same playing style. Same build. Same height. Same mental game. Same serve. Etc etc.

If you saw him play with zero info you couldn’t possibly know what his utr was.

If he has the time and money to travel the world playing junior ITF he will have a higher utr. Same skill level.

If he stays local playing USTA he will be a mid 11.

Kids are not directly playing each other to make a college team. They are selected based off a number. A number that can vary by a point or 2 depending on who they played.

You can figure this out, but college coaches cannot?

 

[Tennis2349]

You can figure this out, but college coaches cannot?

obviously college coaches do know it. Utr is matchplay rating. Not skill rating. They know about farming. They know financial considerations affect rating. They know a 12.5 with a certain schedule isnt necessarily better than an 11.4 that stays local.

However, if the 12.5 flops that plays ITF around the world, they can show their athletic director they chose the best player according to data. If the American 11.4 american flops that plays USTA level 3’s in his area it looks like he ignored data and took a gamble.

Im not saying coaches are dumb. Im saying it’s the system thats broken , and coaches are optimizing for their own job security. Not necessarily finding the better player. They wouldn’t know this unless they played each other before offers are made.

The system rewards being lazy but efficient.

 

[ClarkC]

obviously college coaches do know it. Utr is matchplay rating. Not skill rating. They know about farming. They know financial considerations affect rating. They know a 12.5 with a certain schedule isnt necessarily better than an 11.4 that stays local.

However, if the 12.5 flops that plays ITF around the world, they can show their athletic director they chose the best player according to data. If the American 11.4 american flops that plays USTA level 3’s in his area it looks like he ignored data and took a gamble.

Im not saying coaches are dumb. Im saying it’s the system thats broken , and coaches are optimizing for their own job security. Not necessarily finding the better player. They wouldn’t know this unless they played each other before offers are made.

The system rewards being lazy but efficient.

You do a lot of guessing about what coaches are thinking, and your guessing is always in service to your agenda. I know coaches here at UVA, and neither the women's nor men's coaches think in the way that you are proposing. Your guesses seem totally unsubstantiated.

If your guesses were accurate, then those local 11.4 UTR players would go somewhere else, then outshine those foreign 12.5 UTR players, and you could list dozens of examples.

 

[Tennis2349]

You do a lot of guessing about what coaches are thinking, and your guessing is always in service to your agenda. I know coaches here at UVA, and neither the women's nor men's coaches think in the way that you are proposing. Your guesses seem totally unsubstantiated.

If your guesses were accurate, then those local 11.4 UTR players would go somewhere else, then outshine those foreign 12.5 UTR players, and you could list dozens of examples.

Well, they don’t get selected. Thats the point.

You mean they could go to d3 and then outshine the kid with d1 training playing total different people? You lost me there.

The only way to tell would be to swap their paths. Give the usta 11.4 funds to play 20-30 junior ITF matches vs a consistent flow of high utrr’s, and give the 12.5 the 11.4 ‘s usta schedule. You would see their utr swap as well.

 

[Tennis2349]

Example.

Local top junior was playing usta. Played 2 level ones last year and lost in round of 128. 11.5 utr.

Started playing junior ITF around the globe against softer foreign competition. Utr 13 now.

Now instead of traveling, what if he just stayed to train extra hard? Arguably he might be even better. However, he would remain an 11.5 and be overlooked. Possibly d2 offers. Now he has top p4 offers.

So how may junior ITF are in Europe? 413 each year. How many in the united states? 29

This is the problem with mixing systems and relying on a number.

Unless the USA starts paying for its top 300 juniors to travel the globe to play junior ITF, we will have many juniors with a lower UTR that are overlooked while having higher utr foreign kids selected ahead of them.

 

[travlerajm]

Same kid. Same game. Same playing style. Same build. Same height. Same mental game. Same serve. Etc etc.

If you saw him play with zero info you couldn’t possibly know what his utr was.

If he has the time and money to travel the world playing junior ITF he will have a higher utr. Same skill level.

If he stays local playing USTA he will be a mid 11.

Kids are not directly playing each other to make a college team. They are selected based off a number. A number that can vary by a point or 2 depending on who they played.

In all fields of life, the haves have it easier than the havenots.

I’m not sure that junior tennis is any different.

 

[Tennis2349]

In all fields of life, the haves have it easier than the havenots.

I’m not sure that junior tennis is any different.

I agree. And that’s fine.

There is just a lot of talk about “Americans need to work harder! 65 percent of NCAA is foreign foreign players are better!” No amount of hard work will change that if the system stays as is.

But when you get down to the details as to how players are chosen, you realize it is less about the “hard work” and who is actually better and as you said more about the money/system. Or even families with money dont want their kids to quit high school to play ITF.

 

[Tennis2349]

It’s too easy. You see these come in your feed every single day. Randomly popped up 5 minutes ago. After a little research….

A. Does the fake name change…(I guess now reverts back to old name)

B. Play some South American ITF to get your inflated 12.1. Gets college spot

C. Come to the states and hit your actual level. After 2 years of improvement. 10.7. I don’t really think this guy would have even been a 10 utr in the usta system when he was a 12 years ago.

https://imgur.com/a/2ml4yQF

https://imgur.com/a/543s4kx

https://imgur.com/a/OtWI9cC

 

[ClarkC]

Well, they don’t get selected. Thats the point.

You mean they could go to d3 and then outshine the kid with d1 training playing total different people? You lost me there.

The only way to tell would be to swap their paths. Give the usta 11.4 funds to play 20-30 junior ITF matches vs a consistent flow of high utrr’s, and give the 12.5 the 11.4 ‘s usta schedule. You would see their utr swap as well.

No, they could go to a slightly lesser program and compete against the foreign 12.5 UTR. For example, in the ACC, you have programs with a range of rankings and player rankings. If a USA 11.4 UTR goes to a bottom-third-of-the-ACC school, he will get a chance to prove that he is underrated.

 

[jcgatennismom]

Example.

Local top junior was playing usta. Played 2 level ones last year and lost in round of 128. 11.5 utr.

Started playing junior ITF around the globe against softer foreign competition. Utr 13 now.

Now instead of traveling, what if he just stayed to train extra hard? Arguably he might be even better. However, he would remain an 11.5 and be overlooked. Possibly d2 offers. Now he has top p4 offers.

So how may junior ITF are in Europe? 413 each year. How many in the united states? 29

This is the problem with mixing systems and relying on a number.

Unless the USA starts paying for its top 300 juniors to travel the globe to play junior ITF, we will have many juniors with a lower UTR that are overlooked while having higher utr foreign kids selected ahead of them.

The problem is not enough jr ITF in US. If juniors would boycott usta events and only play UTR platforms, maybe the situation would change. TDs don’t care if it is a USTa event, UTR and would probably shift to ITF if more were on schedule. Idk how much tournament expenses are covered by entry fees vs sponsorships. However many former USTa adult prize $ events are now UTR. I assume the ITF organization decides how many are held in each country, and the only reason I can think ITF limits jr events in US is USTA lobby.

 

[Tennis2349]

The problem is not enough jr ITF in US. If juniors would boycott usta events and only play UTR platforms, maybe the situation would change. TDs don’t care if it is a USTa event, UTR and would probably shift to ITF if more were on schedule. Idk how much tournament expenses are covered by entry fees vs sponsorships. However many former USTa adult prize $ events are now UTR. I assume the ITF organization decides how many are held in each country, and the only reason I can think ITF limits jr events in US is USTA lobby.

Exactly.

We have a USTA system set up. We have an entire college system set up. We have high school tennis.

but then it feels like it switches to “Now for American college tennis, American high school tennis and usta rankings are irrelevant. Playing that might be a waste of time or actually hurt your chances. We are switching to UTR which favors the rest of the world to improve on that certain utr metric over people who play in the USA.

 

[Tennisparent26]

I have talked to a TD who has hosted both USTA and ITF's. He doesn't love the ITF's b/c the kids don't really have to withdraw until day of and many times there are no shows, especially for the qualifying draws. The kids do get penalties but it doesn't seem to help with that problem. And I don't think he gets paid as much as he does with the USTA tournaments. That was a couple of years ago so things could have changed.

 

[Tennis2349]

I have talked to a TD who has hosted both USTA and ITF's. He doesn't love the ITF's b/c the kids don't really have to withdraw until day of and many times there are no shows, especially for the qualifying draws. The kids do get penalties but it doesn't seem to help with that problem. And I don't think he gets paid as much as he does with the USTA tournaments. That was a couple of years ago so things could have changed.

I don’t mind the usta system, but if you get to a certain point you will need to travel a lot, and even then, you won’t get very many matches against higher utr’s. None of that would matter, but colleges select players based on that number. USA is bigger the the 45 countries in Europe. It’s spread out.

And if the rankings mean little to nothing for the next level, there is almost no point to play that game.

 

[FURY]

What's the justification for not having a cap on foreign players in any given country's development system? I would think that enforcing this would be good for local and regional tennis communities, but also for the game in general as each country would have to create and foster a competitive environment.

 

[Tennis2349]

What's the justification for not having a cap on foreign players in any given country's development system? I would think that enforcing this would be good for local and regional tennis communities, but also for the game in general as each country would have to create and foster a competitive environment.

A. People already played or had their kids play so they don’t care.

B. Coaches think they will win more. Makes their job easier to have bigger pool.

C. People (in my opinion) falsely believe xollege tennis is a a sort way to develop top pros because maybe 1 out of 2400 each year might make top 100 in the world. Most guys who won the ncaa singles title you never heard of or made it past top 300. And that one guy would go pro either way. It’s not like somehow studying at college “developed him” from a 12 utr to playing at Wimbledon.

 

[FURY]

A. People already played or had their kids play so they don’t care.

B. Coaches think they will win more. Makes their job easier to have bigger pool.

C. People (in my opinion) falsely believe xollege tennis is a a sort way to develop top pros because maybe 1 out of 2400 each year might make top 100 in the world. Most guys who won the ncaa singles title you never heard of or made it past top 300. And that one guy would go pro either way. It’s not like somehow studying at college “developed him” from a 12 utr to playing at Wimbledon.

Sad. Building a lively local scene is the foundation of every competitive endeavour. This type of assassins-for-hire mentality is always detrimental in the long run.