Forgive Me, Father, For I Am a Full Fledged Sinner!

[James P]

Sinner withdraws from Eckental. My guess is Next Gen Finals and Ortisei to finish the season.

Italian Words

Edit: Ortisei semi-confirmed

 

[stringertom]

Sinner withdraws from Eckental. My guess is Next Gen Finals and Ortisei to finish the season.

Italian Words

Edit: Ortisei semi-confirmed

You can book it! He sleeps at home for that tournament and he will enjoy a DC-style HCA.

 

[stringertom]

Looks like he will be #92-96 on Monday...three guys in SFs at Challengers can jump him if they win 1-2 matches each.

 

[Baseline_Bungle]

You can book it! He sleeps at home for that tournament and he will enjoy a DC-style HCA.

Not sure about sleeping at home... I was in Ortisei this summer and pondered stalking the Sinners... uhh, I mean, taking a day trip to the San Candido area. But it was like a 2 hour drive through treacherous mountain roads... add the November weather, and I doubt he'll be commuting. But he definitely has confirmed his presence, for what will presumably be his last event of the season and his last challenger in a very long time. He also said he plans on playing doubles with 15-year old Piatti prospect Lorenzo Ferri. From Lorenzi to Lorenzo, from mentee to mentor... should be fun!

PS I could not resist and, despite my mixed opinions about the event, got myself tickets for the Next Gens in Milan. Can't wait to see the Sinner work his evil in that indoor Hell!

 

[Pmasterfunk]

PS I could not resist and, despite my mixed opinions about the event, got myself tickets for the Next Gens in Milan. Can't wait to see the Sinner work his evil in that indoor Hell!

Doesn't seem that embarrassing to me, as tickets are actually pretty affordable, and a bunch of young exciting players are going to be there. I'd rather see Shapo, Tiafoe, Humbert and Sinner than a lot of players, and around 30 euros for 2 matches is a good price.

I get that the Next Gen finals are the ATP's version of Clegane Bowl, but seeing as the ATP is nearing its own version of the GoT Season 8 finale... *sighs disappointingly* ... I suppose any marginally novel idea seems alright.

 

[Keizer]

Probably duplicative of the content on some of the earlier pages, but nonetheless:

I think this guy is really, really good. He's only 18 and has that effortless power that cannot really be taught, especially on the forehand. I also think his backhand is relatively solid and looks decent. In all honesty, one of the better prospects I've seen in a while. I was really hot on FAA, but I've somewhat soured on him because of what I consider to be mechanical problems with his serve and BH. For some reason, his BH reminds me of Sock's; there's too much wrist in there, even though he hits a lot of DTL winners. In contrast, Sinner seems to have that similar pop on the FH and a much more solid BH rally ball.

Now I know we've had players like Berdych who have had textbook groundstroke form and amazing pop on contact but have failed to win majors/M1000s, but I think Sinner is more mobile than Berdych. The fact that he is so aggressive in his playstyle and has still showed signs of being able to hang with, and frequently outhit, ATP pros far older than him is a great sign for the future. Wouldn't surprise me if he ends next year in the top 25.

 

[stringertom]

Probably duplicative of the content on some of the earlier pages, but nonetheless:

I think this guy is really, really good. He's only 18 and has that effortless power that cannot really be taught, especially on the forehand. I also think his backhand is relatively solid and looks decent. In all honesty, one of the better prospects I've seen in a while. I was really hot on FAA, but I've somewhat soured on him because of what I consider to be mechanical problems with his serve and BH. For some reason, his BH reminds me of Sock's; there's too much wrist in there, even though he hits a lot of DTL winners. In contrast, Sinner seems to have that similar pop on the FH and a much more solid BH rally ball.

Now I know we've had players like Berdych who have had textbook groundstroke form and amazing pop on contact but have failed to win majors/M1000s, but I think Sinner is more mobile than Berdych. The fact that he is so aggressive in his playstyle and has still showed signs of being able to hang with, and frequently outhit, ATP pros far older than him is a great sign for the future. Wouldn't surprise me if he ends next year in the top 25.

Welcome! I highlighted the key adjective there. This bodes well for avoiding injury and developing the stamina for Bo5 competition.

I’ve already seen variety added in the eight months since catching my first glimpse of him at Bergamo. Piatti knows how to zest up a pro game. He’ll keep adding as they go along.

When he fills in a bit more we are going to see a lot more pop, especially on the serve.

My one worry...gotta get him into a more arm friendly string set up to avoid any shoulder/elbow/wrist issues. 62# full poly is dangerous! Make it priority one to hire Priority One to customize the sticks and switch to gut/poly hybrid.

 

[Pmasterfunk]

My one worry...gotta get him into a more arm friendly string set up to avoid any shoulder/elbow/wrist issues. 62# full poly is dangerous! Make it priority one to hire Priority One to customize the sticks and switch to gut/poly hybrid.

Don't pull a Marius on us, next you'll start saying everyone should serve and volley on every second serve.

Seriously though, I wonder if his racquet is already weighted up quite a bit considering how smooth his strokes are. He doesn't seem to swing as fast as FAA or Shapo or Thiem, but I don't think anyone would claim that he hits a softer ball. The heavier racquet might be contributing to that effect.

I might also be completely wrong, and he actually swings faster than all of those guys. Even I know that personal perception can be terribly misleading.

 

[stringertom]

Don't pull a Marius on us, next you'll start saying everyone should serve and volley on every second serve.

Seriously though, I wonder if his racquet is already weighted up quite a bit considering how smooth his strokes are. He doesn't seem to swing as fast as FAA or Shapo or Thiem, but I don't think anyone would claim that he hits a softer ball. The heavier racquet might be contributing to that effect.

I might also be completely wrong, and he actually swings faster than all of those guys. Even I know that personal perception can be terribly misleading.

No worry about strategic advice, particularly to encourage him to add something he doesn’t yet know how to do. Just protect that very talented limb! It will also make the touch shots he’s already adding that much better.

 

[stringertom]

This week is so boring without some Sinning.

 

[stringertom]

NextGen week is almost here!

It would be so cool if he wins the whole thing!

 

[James P]

Absolutely, it'd be a massive shock if he did, though. I think he's in the mix, but I'd put money on Shapo or Demon

 

[ArcspacE]

Just came here to say - best thread title name. EVER.

 

[Keizer]

Was just watching Garin-Dimitrov. I saw shades of Sinner in Garin's groundstroke mechanics (both wings), although far more spinny. Have people ever thought that?

 

[Baseline_Bungle]

After sending an Italian to the Master for the first time in 41 years, Shapo has announced his withdrawl from the Next Gens, citing fatigue. (too bad... he would have received a true hero's welcome).

This means Davidovich Fokina is now in. One more defection would give the Sinner direct acceptance, freeing up the wild card for the winner of the play-in tournament that is currently taking place (for anyone interested, tomorrow's semi-finals will be Dalla Valle-Moroni and Zeppieri-Musetti... the latter a very juicy clash between the two (other) wunderkinds of Italian tennis, who happen to be best friends).

In other strictly-sinful news, Jannik has just signed with Lawrence Frankopan's Starwings management agency, ending any speculation that he might join's the Fedr-Godsick team.

 

[stringertom]

Our Sinner has drawn side B with Tiafoe, Humbert and Ymer. He has a realistic shot at either winning the group or finishing second and making the SFs.

 

[stringertom]

The Hour of Sinning will be the closing match on Tuesday evening vs Tiafoe.

h2h is 1-0 Sinner, won on indoor HCs in three sets at Antwerp.

 

[stringertom]

Sinfully delightful results tonight! After a saintly donation of the first quickset in a TB, The Sinner reeled off three straight 4-2 quicksets.

Wednesday’s match will be vs Mikael Ymer for outright lead in the group.

 

[Baseline_Bungle]

... pretty good.

 

[stringertom]

... pretty good.

PDG and PDQ...under 90 minutes!

 

[Joseph_K]

A clinical display by Jannik Sinner as he beat Mikael Ymer 4-0, 4-2, 4-1 in little more than an hour on Wednesday evening at the NextGen Finals in Milan. With this victory the Italian becomes the first player through to the semi-finals of the tournament.

 

[stringertom]

A clinical dismantling of Mikael Ymer by Jannik Sinner in little more than am hour on Wednesday evening at the NextGen Finals in Milan. The score was 4-0, 4-2, 4-1 and makes the young Italian the first player through to the semi-finals of the tournament.

Still waiting on confirmation from NextGen expert @Meles on the 16-4 first quickset bagel being closest in history to a Golden Bagel.

Tomorrow’s incentive for Humbert will be limited to finishing and collecting his check ($37.3K appearance and $33K for a Sinful upset)...with losses already to the other two in the pod he is eliminated from the weekend and would lose the h2h for group third place. The winner of Tiafoe vs Ymer will be #2 from Group B.

 

[Baseline_Bungle]

Still waiting on confirmation from NextGen expert @Meles on the 16-4 first quickset bagel being closest in history to a Golden Bagel.

Tomorrow’s incentive for Humbert will be limited to finishing and collecting his check ($37.3K appearance and $33K for a Sinful upset)...with losses already to the other two in the pod he is eliminated from the weekend and would lose the h2h for group third place. The winner of Tiafoe vs Ymer will be #2 from Group B.

No idea about points, but as far as games won/lost, it's definitely the most thorough shellacking in Next Gen history - even with badly outmatched WCs like Quinzi and Caruana taking part in previous editions. No other player had ever won less than 4 games.

 

[stringertom]

No idea about points, but as far as games won/lost, it's definitely the most thorough shellacking in Next Gen history - even with badly outmatched WCs like Quinzi and Caruana taking part in previous editions. No other player had ever won less than 4 games.

Saintly Sinner showing fedresque magnanimity by not double bageling.

 

[Meles]

Still waiting on confirmation from NextGen expert @Meles on the 16-4 first quickset bagel being closest in history to a Golden Bagel.

Tomorrow’s incentive for Humbert will be limited to finishing and collecting his check ($37.3K appearance and $33K for a Sinful upset)...with losses already to the other two in the pod he is eliminated from the weekend and would lose the h2h for group third place. The winner of Tiafoe vs Ymer will be #2 from Group B.

So I'm taking it the Golden Bagel is a set where one loses no points? I am not a record Maven like @Mainad and a few others, so wouldn't know where to begin to find that one. I can sort a player's matches probably by percent of points won for the match, but not for the set with my usual sources. I'll go look for points won % in today's Sinner match and see how that stacks up with some greats. edit: Sinner won 63% of points in the match which while superlative I'm sure has been surpassed many, many times. Shapo just won Stockhom with 58% of points for 4 matches which is off the chart good especially at his age.

 

[stringertom]

So I'm taking it the Golden Bagel is a set where one loses no points? I am not a record Maven like @Mainad and a few others, so wouldn't know where to begin to find that one. I can sort a player's matches probably by percent of points won for the match, but not for the set with my usual sources. I'll go look for points won % in today's Sinner match and see how that stacks up with some greats. edit: Sinner won 63% of points in the match which while superlative I'm sure has been surpassed many, many times. Shapo just won Stockhom with 58% of points for 4 matches which is off the chart good especially at his age.

I thought you might have watched all the matches the first two years and remembered one of the dominant players busting up an Italian WC. Sinner was very efficient but just by one more point than bagel baker AdM, who coughed up five points vs a fading Kecmanovic in the closing fourth set.

 

[stringertom]

^^*EDIT: @Meles , I just checked via TE and there were several bagels baked in 2017; in one match Rubylev and Quinzi traded those bakery products. Chung also baked a closing bagel for Mad Lad in the SFs. Rublylev received other bagels from Chung and Shapo yet made the final. Coric baked for Khachanov as did Mad Lad for Donaldson.

Last year there was only one bagel...Tsitsipas for Rubylev in the 5-set SF win.

 

[Meles]

^^*EDIT: @Meles , I just checked via TE and there were several bagels baked in 2017; in one match Rubylev and Quinzi traded those bakery products. Chung also baked a closing bagel for Mad Lad in the SFs. Rublylev received other bagels from Chung and Shapo yet made the final. Coric baked for Khachanov as did Mad Lad for Donaldson.

Last year there was only one bagel...Tsitsipas for Rubylev in the 5-set SF win.

Beating up on Italian wildcards really doesn't count, but Quinzi beating Ruby that counts. Mad Lad counts. Well I'm not sure if I can get the detailed data on those examples, but I'll fish around. Tennis TV has probably nuked most of the replays from last year and previous years.

I'll tell you on thing I was quite confused on is the Tennis TV commies kept saying Sinner had the highest average backhand speed for a match in Milan, but never gave a number. Thought they were talking RPMs, so put 2800+ rpm in Milan thread. But another commie also said fastest. They need to cough up these numbers. Forehand was average 85 mph after a couple sets in first match, but no updates since.

 

[Rina]

How is this kid Italian?!

 

[stringertom]

How is this kid Italian?!

Born and raised in the mountains of South Tyrol on the Italian side of the Austrian border.

 

[Rina]

Born and raised in the mountains of South Tyrol on the Italian side of the Austrian border.

I see. Thanks!

 

[James P]

The young man has effectively doubled his career earnings in 4 days of play. To this point, he's banked $262k. He can bank another $110k with a win tomorrow. Coming into the tourney, he had earned roughly $275k.

 

[The Green Mile]

Has Brad Gilbert started calling him "The Sinnerman" yet?

 

[stringertom]

Attention all Sinners!

Root hard not only for Jannik tomorrow but also for the following players to thwart several players possibly able to bump our Sinner down from his cuspy #95 AO DE ranking:

At Bratislava, cheer for Zdenek Kolar vs Damir Dzumhur and Dennis Novak vs Egor Gerasimov. Gerasimov needs just the SF win to pass Jannik while Dzumhur needs the title.

At Montevideo, cheer for fellow teen Thiago Seyboth Wild vs Jaume Munar. Munar would tie Jannik with a SF win.

Currently playing his SF in Kobe, Yuichi Sugita can position himself with two points of Sinner with a title on Sunday. Sugita has won the first set vs Shintaro Imai. Go, Shintaro!

 

[stringertom]

Maybe @Baseline_Bungle can answer a pertinent question about Jannik’s schedule options:

Before his ATP250 points splurge, I thought he might need to play both Ortisei this next week AND the Andria Challenger in late November. However, the listing for Andria has fallen off the calendar at the ATP/WTA Live app I use to follow the tour off my phone. Is it cancelled???

You can see my concern from the above post. Jannik could be outside top 100 if his Ortisei results aren’t strong. Without a WC at AO, he may be forced to qualify.

ATP needs to give NextGen participants some points for sacrificing the week while others are gathering points.

 

[Joseph_K]

Jannik Sinner's schedule for early 2020 has already been confirmed:

1. Doha
2. Australian Open
3. Montpellier
4. Rotterdam
5. Marseilles

Apparently he has already been awarded a wildcard into the main singles draw at most of those five tournaments.

 

[Baseline_Bungle]

Maybe @Baseline_Bungle can answer a pertinent question about Jannik’s schedule options:

Before his ATP250 points splurge, I thought he might need to play both Ortisei this next week AND the Andria Challenger in late November. However, the listing for Andria has fallen off the calendar at the ATP/WTA Live app I use to follow the tour off my phone. Is it cancelled???

You can see my concern from the above post. Jannik could be outside top 100 if his Ortisei results aren’t strong. Without a WC at AO, he may be forced to qualify.

ATP needs to give NextGen participants some points for sacrificing the week while others are gathering points.

Yup, that challenger has been canceled. First, it was abruptly moved from Andria to Bari. Then, this year's edition was canceled at the last minute "due to logistical reasons". It's supposed to be resuming next year but... who knows? After all, we're talking about Puglia.

Jannik has confirmed his presence in Ortisei, where he's been tentatively scheduled to play Wednesday night (although draw won't be out until tomorrow). However, after a week like this one, I wonder whether that's really a good idea. It's not so much the physical fatigue for the matches played at the NextGen - and this year: counting doubles and the Rome pre-qualies, he's pushing triple-digits! What worries me is the psychological and emotional drainage after a week where, for the first time, the Sinnerman has been the biggest story in Italy: hailed by fans as a new Messiah, besieged by media and selfie-seeking teenagers, thrown onto the front pages of Italy's biggest newspapers and websites... In other words, as I had forecast a while back, SINNERMANIA has officially begun (and they stole my term too! I shoulda trademarked it back in spring...). So far, he seems to be enjoying it, and is even starting to come out of his shell, revealing a genuine, affable and sweet personality. Still, that's got to be a lot to handle. Then again, who knows? Maybe getting back onto the challenger courts will be the best way to regain a sense of normalcy...

For Melbourne, I'm really not too worried. It would take a lot to keep him out of the MD, and even if that were to happen, I'm pretty sure they'd throw him a bone. After all, every one wants a piece of the Sinner now!

 

[Baseline_Bungle]

ATP needs to give NextGen participants some points for sacrificing the week while others are gathering points.

That's been one of the big talking points around here... and of course I agree that it SHOULD award ATP points - even just to give some real luster to an event which many still consider a farce. There are, however, a number of issues, starting from the "experimental" rules. Then, most problematically, there's the matter of defending those points the following year. What happens if you're not back in Milan? Do you just take a big hit in the rankings (right before AO cut-off)? Or are you supposed go play Kobe and Ortisei just to try and salvage what you can? Clearly, that's something which needs to be seriously addressed ... But I trust my boy Andrea Gaudenzi and his team will come up with a viable solution.

 

[Baseline_Bungle]

A few more bits of this and that, then I promise I'll stop spamming the thread.

1) CORRECTION - The Ortisei draw is already out: N. 2 Seed Jannik Sinner (bye) awaits the winner of Moroni-Miedler. His second match could be against Marcora (a rematch of the Bergamo final) or Zeppieri (his fellow Italian NextGen and frequent sparring partner in Milan - see pic below).

https://images2.imagebam.com/f8/a8/6c/df19af1325041368.jpg

2) @stringertom In Milan, I had a nice little chat with the NextGen stringer (your colleague? ), who confirmed that Jannik does indeed still string his rackets at a whopping 28 kilos, and still uses those weird makeshift pseudo-power pads. He mentioned that the rackets are indeed customized by Head, weighing about 10 grams more than the store model. He also shared a bunch of interesting anecdotes, from working on Kukushkin's landing nets in Rome or stringing for Cecchinato during his magical RG run... but let's not go OT.

3)Here's some rare footage of a cute little redhead shreddin' some powder...

Natural Born Sinner!

 

[stringertom]

Yup, that challenger has been canceled. First, it was abruptly moved from Andria to Bari. Then, this year's edition was canceled at the last minute "due to logistical reasons". It's supposed to be resuming next year but... who knows? After all, we're talking about Puglia.

Jannik has confirmed his presence in Ortisei, where he's been tentatively scheduled to play Wednesday night (although draw won't be out until tomorrow). However, after a week like this one, I wonder whether that's really a good idea. It's not so much the physical fatigue for the matches played at the NextGen - and this year: counting doubles and the Rome pre-qualies, he's pushing triple-digits! What worries me is the psychological and emotional drainage after a week where, for the first time, the Sinnerman has been the biggest story in Italy: hailed by fans as a new Messiah, besieged by media and selfie-seeking teenagers, thrown onto the front pages of Italy's biggest newspapers and websites... In other words, as I had forecast a while back, SINNERMANIA has officially begun (and they stole my term too! I shoulda trademarked it back in spring...). So far, he seems to be enjoying it, and is even starting to come out of his shell, revealing a genuine, affable and sweet personality. Still, that's got to be a lot to handle. Then again, who knows? Maybe getting back onto the challenger courts will be the best way to regain a sense of normalcy...

For Melbourne, I'm really not too worried. It would take a lot to keep him out of the MD, and even if that were to happen, I'm pretty sure they'd throw him a bone. After all, every one wants a piece of the Sinner now!

Thanks!

TennisAustralia seems thoroughly structured about their 8 WCs: 3 to FFT, USTA and the Asia/Pacific chosen one, one to their own play in tournament winner since 2012 and four to other Aussies. That’s been going on since before fedr was a Melbourne champion (I stopped searching at 2003). Before 2012, TA offered either 5 or 6 Aussie players a WC slot along with the two reciprocal and Asia/Pacific spots. Jannik will not get that bone.

As to possible downward bumps, Dzumhur has inched closer in Bratislava by winning his SF and Gerasimov is just starting in Bratislava while Munar is a few hours away. I’m afraid Sinner’s choice will be to roll the dice that a high 90s gets DE, face playing qualies in Melbourne if his gamble loses or bone up and play Ortisei for a second consecutive final or better on home soil.

Both Dzumhur and Gerasimov are top of the seeds of the entry list at Helsinki next week. They know what’s on the line.

 

[stringertom]

A few more bits of this and that, then I promise I'll stop spamming the thread.

1) CORRECTION - The Ortisei draw is already out: N. 2 Seed Jannik Sinner (bye) awaits the winner of Moroni-Miedler. His second match could be against Marcora (a rematch of the Bergamo final) or Zeppieri (his fellow Italian NextGen and frequent sparring partner in Milan - see pic below).

https://images2.imagebam.com/f8/a8/6c/df19af1325041368.jpg

2) @stringertom In Milan, I had a nice little chat with the NextGen stringer (your colleague? ), who confirmed that Jannik does indeed still string his rackets at a whopping 28 kilos, and still uses those weird makeshift pseudo-power pads. He mentioned that the rackets are indeed customized by Head, weighing about 10 grams more than the store model. He also shared a bunch of interesting anecdotes, from working on Kukushkin's landing nets in Rome or stringing for Cecchinato during his magical RG run... but let's not go OT.

3)Here's some rare footage of a cute little redhead shreddin' some powder...

Natural Born Sinner!

Molto grazie!

Zeppieri’s sinister side should have been nice prep for Humbert.

You guys are so stacked for DC/ATP World Cup for years. How are the net skills for young Zep? If he has the dubs feel, that lefty/righty Sinpieri tandem could wreak havoc.

 

[James P]

Semifinal in Ortisei will bump him up 6 spots. That's three more matches. It's worthwhile to protect his main draw status. I found 2018's (I believe) data for the AO a while back and the cut off line was 100. I think he'll be fine without Ortisei, but he's right on the razor's edge. Might as well do 3-5 more matches, if he can handle it.

 

[James P]

Ortisei is out, by the way. Sinner is the #2 seed. I imagine his team would have been in contact with the tournament director regarding his participation. So, it sounds like he's playing.

 

[stringertom]

Semifinal in Ortisei will bump him up 6 spots. That's three more matches. It's worthwhile to protect his main draw status. I found 2018's (I believe) data for the AO a while back and the cut off line was 100. I think he'll be fine without Ortisei, but he's right on the razor's edge. Might as well do 3-5 more matches, if he can handle it.

Gerasimov lost to Novak in Bratislava so he stays behind Jannik this week. He’s not FINNISH even though he now goes to Helsinki.

Another name in the mix to get into passing gear is countryman Caruso, just 10 points behind and playing Ortisei as #3 seed and possibly Sinner’s opponent in a SF.

 

[Red Rick]

Jannik Sinner's schedule for early 2020 has already been confirmed:

1. Doha
2. Australian Open
3. Montpellier
4. Rotterdam
5. Marseilles

Apparently he has already been awarded a wildcard into the main singles draw at most of those five tournaments.

Great schedule. Love that he's not playing the week before a Slam.

 

[Red Rick]

Somebody just got pummeled into the confession booth

 

[stringertom]

What a first title above Challenger level!!!

 

[stringertom]

Great schedule. Love that he's not playing the week before a Slam.

He may need the week open to qualify...live ranking is #95 and he can be passed by several players in the last two weeks of Challengers. To help stay above the cut line, he’s playing Ortisei this week but there’s no guarantee until he wins several matches.

 

[Pmasterfunk]

some rare footage of a cute little redhead shreddin' some powder...

Natural Born Sinner!

Great find! And what a performance today.

I think thethe ATP should give the winner of the Next Gen Finals the 8th position at the real ATP finals. I'd bet FAA and Shapo would have shown up.

 

[Red Rick]

He may need the week open to qualify...live ranking is #95 and he can be passed by several players in the last two weeks of Challengers. To help stay above the cut line, he’s playing Ortisei this week but there’s no guarantee until he wins several matches.

Gonna be weird conditions at altitude.