Former D2 at 4.0 Sectionals

[Alexrb]

I played a 40ish year old (former) D2 this past weekend at 4.0 mens 18+ sectionals. No apparent injuries, absolutely wrecked me. I would've normally enjoyed (the beating) it if it wasn't 115+ degrees at the time. I guess my question is why would he rate 4.0 and is this normal? He even lost one of his singles matches, which is hard to believe. I mean he grew up playing tennis and spent his entire 4 years in college playing 5.0's multiple hours several days a week. Not sure how adult rec players with desk jobs overcome something like that...


https://hardingsports.com/sports/mens-tennis/roster/david-ferreira/193

 

[JordanWinning]

Super not normal… I know 10 years ago Harding was nasty, not sure how they were 20, but I’m surprised a former Harding player (that was even an international recruit) would drop sets at 4.0

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

I played, in combo, a self rated 4.0 or 4.5, hard to remember, I didn't care that much to investigate, was also a current D2 player and he wore his college warmups to the match and his team uniform. People are strange. He was quite good and it was fun playing against him.

 

[Tiafoe]

I played in 3.5 Nationals several years back. At the time, there was a current D3 player on one of the teams (Middle States). He of course destroyed everyone he played.

 

[J_R_B]

I played in 3.5 Nationals several years back. At the time, there was a current D3 player on one of the teams (Middle States). He of course destroyed everyone he played.

What year was that?

 

[Tiafoe]

What year was that?

2016

 

[J_R_B]

2016

Ok, I see. It looks like that kid rated himself 3.5 in high school (and he was a 3.5 at the time based on his record) and his rating was just catching up with his improvement through playing in college by 2016.

 

[Alexrb]

Super not normal… I know 10 years ago Harding was nasty, not sure how they were 20, but I’m surprised a former Harding player (that was even an international recruit) would drop sets at 4.0

He lost his first singles match in straights 46 46 I think, and it wasnt like the guy that beat him got lucky. He told me he was straight up better. Just crazy how that level (and higher )even exists anywhere in 4.0

 

[Alexrb]

I played, in combo, a self rated 4.0 or 4.5, hard to remember, I didn't care that much to investigate, was also a current D2 player and he wore his college warmups to the match and his team uniform. People are strange. He was quite good and it was fun playing against him.

Yeah, I’ve played 5.0s before as well but they were casual matches. This guy was every bit a 5.0 and just seemed out of place out there

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Yeah, I’ve played 5.0s before as well but they were casual matches. This guy was every bit a 5.0 and just seemed out of place out there

Oh this was USTA Texas state championships, he was gunning for the plastic trophy at nationals after his team won Texas. One of my teammates called him a B lol, was kind of funny.

 

[johnmccabe]

A lot of people willing to do anything to win, I guess.

 

[!<-_->!]

A lot of people willing to do anything to win, I guess.

That's what the "competitive" minority boils down to for USTA league imo.

 

[schmke]

I played a 40ish year old (former) D2 this past weekend at 4.0 mens 18+ sectionals. No apparent injuries, absolutely wrecked me. I would've normally enjoyed (the beating) it if it wasn't 115+ degrees at the time. I guess my question is why would he rate 4.0 and is this normal? He even lost one of his singles matches, which is hard to believe. I mean he grew up playing tennis and spent his entire 4 years in college playing 5.0's multiple hours several days a week. Not sure how adult rec players with desk jobs overcome something like that...


https://hardingsports.com/sports/mens-tennis/roster/david-ferreira/193

Likely carrying a strike or two and will be bumped up. So perhaps a questionable 4.0. He did have a couple legit losses, but one was in doubles and he appears to be a stronger singles player.

 

[Ustatennis13]

I played in 3.5 Nationals several years back. At the time, there was a current D3 player on one of the teams (Middle States). He of course destroyed everyone he played.

Being a former college player myself (rated as a 5.0 now) the range of levels in D3 tennis is quite insane. The top ranked teams would easily beat many of the 5.0s that play USTA but there were also lower schools where it looked like some of the players never even picked up a racket before. So a 3.5 D3 player isn't super surprising to me. However D2 is a differnt story and seems to be a stretch for any of those guys to be a 4.0 especially since this guy seemed to be a consitant starter in the D2 lineup as well.

 

[J_R_B]

Being a former college player myself (rated as a 5.0 now) the range of levels in D3 tennis is quite insane. The top ranked teams would easily beat many of the 5.0s that play USTA but there were also lower schools where it looked like some of the players never even picked up a racket before. So a 3.5 D3 player isn't super surprising to me. However D2 is a differnt story and seems to be a stretch for any of those guys to be a 4.0 especially since this guy seemed to be a consitant starter in the D2 lineup as well.

A lot of D3 teams are better than D2. Regardless, I looked up the guy he is talking about. He rated 3.5 in high school, and was just an average (or maybe below average) 3.5 at the time. He went to college locally and played for a weaker D3 program (in the same conference as the team that was allowed to play in our 4.0 league), but regardless, you can directly see the effect college tennis has on kids. In his freshman year, in the fall (so before the tennis season was in full swing), he played early start tri-level on the 3.5 line and had a losing record at it. Then he played a year in the college program and came back out in the spring USTA season after his school year ended and was undefeated and almost untouchable by the time that team played in 3.5 nationals, so just a single season in a very low level D3 program improved the guy a full level from 3.5 to 4.0 (with a 3.5 rating...).

 

[jm1980]

I played in 3.5 Nationals several years back. At the time, there was a current D3 player on one of the teams (Middle States). He of course destroyed everyone he played.

Like discussed in another thread, some current D3 players are legit 3.5s and 4.0s.

There is an enormous range of skills in D3, from guys who belong in middling rec tennis, to guys who could be playing D1

 

[Creighton]

Like discussed in another thread, some current D3 players are legit 3.5s

Yeah, those players don't end 4-0 at 3.5 nationals though.

 

[ChaelAZ]

He lost his first singles match in straights 46 46 I think, and it wasnt like the guy that beat him got lucky. He told me he was straight up better. Just crazy how that level (and higher )even exists anywhere in 4.0

He only played a set the next round and lost that 3/6 to a UTR 8, so retired?
Looks like he was competitive in the 4/6 4/6 against another UTR 7
But won against you 0 and 1 and your are a UTR 6.

Seems to align with UTR ratings, so maybe just an off day for you and/or he played that much better. I don't see too much out of line with his season though. Played and won easily against a lot of lower UTR players. Just a top 4.0 and probably can be competitive at 4.5. With his record most likely will get bumped.

 

[J_R_B]

Yeah, those players don't end 4-0 at 3.5 nationals though.

Again, he was a legit 3.5 when he self-rated in high school (he was actually a losing 3.5 in high school). He wasn't by the time he was playing in nationals after he had spent some time in a college program, but I don't have a problem at all with people who self-rate appropriately when they sign up and then just improve faster than their c-rating can keep up with. Those are the people who should be at the top of a level playing in nationals.

 

[HBK4life]

Sounds about right for USTA.

 

[Alexrb]

He only played a set the next round and lost that 3/6 to a UTR 8, so retired?
Looks like he was competitive in the 4/6 4/6 against another UTR 7
But won against you 0 and 1 and your are a UTR 6.

Seems to align with UTR ratings, so maybe just an off day for you and/or he played that much better. I don't see too much out of line with his season though. Played and won easily against a lot of lower UTR players. Just a top 4.0 and probably can be competitive at 4.5. With his record most likely will get bumped.

I didn't get to see his last match, not sure if he got injured or just exhaustion (their team was short players so he was playing every match). I know all you can see is stats, but I'm telling you he didn't even belong at 4.5. I play a benchmark USTA 5.0 every Thursday (casually) and David would have beaten him.

 

[Creighton]

Again, he was a legit 3.5 when he self-rated in high school (he was actually a losing 3.5 in high school). He wasn't by the time he was playing in nationals after he had spent some time in a college program, but I don't have a problem at all with people who self-rate appropriately when they sign up and then just improve faster than their c-rating can keep up with. Those are the people who should be at the top of a level playing in nationals.

Looks like he actually self-rated as a 3.0 then only played doubles for two years. Then when he was a 3.5C, he switched to singles and went unbeaten. On paper, it looks more like managing rating than a college player that couldn't handle 3.0 singles.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Everyone has a story about some former D2 or D3 college player they played at 3.5 or 4.0 sectionals. But literally like 99% of the players there are just regular top of level players. And moreover, how did you get to sectionals yourself? Likely by beating a bunch of local guys who think you are the one sandbagging.

 

[Alexrb]

Everyone has a story about some former D2 or D3 college player they played at 3.5 or 4.0 sectionals. But literally like 99% of the players there are just regular top of level players. And moreover, how did you get to sectionals yourself? Likely by beating a bunch of local guys who think you are the one sandbagging.

I've played several sectionals and this is the first time I've noticed that level of player, much less a former D2. I didn't realize this was a regular thing or I wouldn't have posted about it. The guy I play Thursday's is a former D1 for Uconn, and he's been trying to get bumped down from 5.0 for ages but doesn't like the idea of tanking matches (and keeps schlacking people). I'm telling you this guy would've given him hell.

Yes, I've got a pretty good record the last couple seasons against the locals. My intent is to get bumped up though based on improvement, not self rate a full point lower than I should or tank matches to remain a 4.0 (which plenty of people do). People like this may keep me back from getting bumped, which isn't what I want.

 

[Creighton]

I've played several sectionals and this is the first time I've noticed that level of player, much less a former D2. I didn't realize this was a regular thing or I wouldn't have posted about it. The guy I play Thursday's is a former D1 for Uconn, and he's been trying to get bumped down from 5.0 for ages but doesn't like the idea of tanking matches (and keeps schlacking people). I'm telling you this guy would've given him hell.

Yes, I've got a pretty good record the last couple seasons against the locals. My intent is to get bumped up though based on improvement, not self rate a full point lower than I should or tank matches to remain a 4.0 (which plenty of people do). People like this may keep me back from getting bumped, which isn't what I want.

Yep, this has such a deflationary impact on ratings. I previously played in Southern and don't ever recall running into former college players at 4.0 and definitely not 3.5. Now that I play in Middle States, former college players at 4.0 is the norm.

So I guess it's somewhat section dependent.

 

[JLyon]

Yep, this has such a deflationary impact on ratings. I previously played in Southern and don't ever recall running into former college players at 4.0 and definitely not 3.5. Now that I play in Middle States, former college players at 4.0 is the norm.

So I guess it's somewhat section dependent.

you must have missed the MS 4.0 team few years back with active Delta St player(s)

 

[jz000]

Great, you played him, hope you taped it and learn something.

 

[Creighton]

you must have missed the MS 4.0 team few years back with active Delta St player(s)

Did they win?

 

[Snarf]

Did they win?

Lost at nationals, but the most ridiculous ringer got DQ'd after sectionals. It was in 2016

 

[Vox Rationis]

Lost at nationals, but the most ridiculous ringer got DQ'd after sectionals. It was in 2016

Didn’t the same captain win the following year with some different college players? I remember MS going to nationals back to back and winning one over JF’s Texas team.

 

[tennisjon]

As a college coach I can tell you that there are players of all levels in D2 and D3. There are some schools where people are literally 2.5 players. While those in D2 on scholarship are likely to be 4.5 to 5.5 players and those on most D3 teams 4.0 to 5.0 players, for sure there are people, even starters that are below that.

 

[Creighton]

As a college coach I can tell you that there are players of all levels in D2 and D3. There are some schools where people are literally 2.5 players. While those in D2 on scholarship are likely to be 4.5 to 5.5 players and those on most D3 teams 4.0 to 5.0 players, for sure there are people, even starters that are below that.

Yeah, but no one wants the 2.5 D3 players on their teams so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Purestriker]

As a college coach I can tell you that there are players of all levels in D2 and D3. There are some schools where people are literally 2.5 players. While those in D2 on scholarship are likely to be 4.5 to 5.5 players and those on most D3 teams 4.0 to 5.0 players, for sure there are people, even starters that are below that.

Wow real 2.5's? They must really want to be able to say they were a college tennis player.

 

[Purestriker]

Yeah, but no one wants the 2.5 D3 players on their teams so it doesn't really matter.

No, only the 5.0's that self rate 3.5.

 

[Creighton]

Wow real 2.5's? They must really want to be able to say they were a college tennis player.

The only time I've seen this is at like small religious schools where they just needed extra bodies to fill out a team. But those kids still generally want to be 3.5s based on their experience.

 

[Purestriker]

The only time I've seen this is at like small religious schools where they just needed extra bodies to fill out a team. But those kids still generally want to be 3.5s based on their experience.

That makes sense. Rural high schools have similar issues but even they are at least 3.0's.

 

[Rosstour]

I played a 40ish year old (former) D2 this past weekend at 4.0 mens 18+ sectionals. No apparent injuries, absolutely wrecked me. I would've normally enjoyed (the beating) it if it wasn't 115+ degrees at the time. I guess my question is why would he rate 4.0 and is this normal? He even lost one of his singles matches, which is hard to believe. I mean he grew up playing tennis and spent his entire 4 years in college playing 5.0's multiple hours several days a week. Not sure how adult rec players with desk jobs overcome something like that...


https://hardingsports.com/sports/mens-tennis/roster/david-ferreira/193

Ferreira? From South Africa?

You may have just played a relative of a well-known former pro.

 

[J_R_B]

Wow real 2.5's? They must really want to be able to say they were a college tennis player.

The local community college (NJCAA D3...) often doesn't have enough players to fill out their lineup and will take anyone with a racket and put them in the lineup if they want. I don't know about 2.5 though, LOL (I think Jon was being a little facetious there...), but I've seen plenty of kids who played JV in high school play for the JC team.

 

[JordanWinning]

That makes sense. Rural high schools have similar issues but even they are at least 3.0's.

Having coaches rural high school tennis, I can confirm that they aren’t all even 3.0s lol

 

[tennisjon]

There are a couple of teams we play that have people who have literally never played tennis but the school only has 4 guys and these guys play some other sport and are willing to go out there to keep the sport going at the school until better times come around.

 

[Snarf]

Didn’t the same captain win the following year with some different college players? I remember MS going to nationals back to back and winning one over JF’s Texas team.

Lol. MS did win the following year, but it was a totally different crew. I'm not going to claim our hands were clean - we came out of the Southern section and won 4.0 - but none of the kids on the roster played college tennis or got DQ'd.

 

[Vox Rationis]

Lol. MS did win the following year, but it was a totally different crew. I'm not going to claim our hands were clean - we came out of the Southern section and won 4.0 - but none of the kids on the roster played college tennis or got DQ'd.

My bad. Sorry for the misrepresentation. I just remember MS winning with some really talented youngsters.

 

[chatt_town]

I played a 40ish year old (former) D2 this past weekend at 4.0 mens 18+ sectionals. No apparent injuries, absolutely wrecked me. I would've normally enjoyed (the beating) it if it wasn't 115+ degrees at the time. I guess my question is why would he rate 4.0 and is this normal? He even lost one of his singles matches, which is hard to believe. I mean he grew up playing tennis and spent his entire 4 years in college playing 5.0's multiple hours several days a week. Not sure how adult rec players with desk jobs overcome something like that...


https://hardingsports.com/sports/mens-tennis/roster/david-ferreira/193

chalk it up as it's part of the game brother. He's probably going to run into more players like himself at some point especially if he makes it to the nationals. Truth is you all probably had a few ringers yourself if your team got that far. I've played enough to know that you can't get that far without having a few ringers. it's just how it is. Someone has to be the best. It was just his turn that day you and him played. I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. It happens to the best of us.

 

[Nostradamus]

I played a 40ish year old (former) D2 this past weekend at 4.0 mens 18+ sectionals. No apparent injuries, absolutely wrecked me. I would've normally enjoyed (the beating) it if it wasn't 115+ degrees at the time. I guess my question is why would he rate 4.0 and is this normal? He even lost one of his singles matches, which is hard to believe. I mean he grew up playing tennis and spent his entire 4 years in college playing 5.0's multiple hours several days a week. Not sure how adult rec players with desk jobs overcome something like that...


https://hardingsports.com/sports/mens-tennis/roster/david-ferreira/193

Playing college tennis especially D2, 20 years ago don't count as playing College tennis.... it is Irrelevant

 

[Alexrb]

Playing college tennis especially D2, 20 years ago don't count as playing College tennis.... it is Irrelevant

Don’t know if I agree with you here. Most people who play college have played tennis from a young age. I have a friend who was d3 and hasnt touched a racket in over a year due to kids but still will pick it up occasionally and wipe the floor with me. You don’t forget that sort of muscle memory. Unless you completely let yourself go physically and not touch it at all for 20 years then maybe, but this guy didnt look like he did either.

 

[Nostradamus]

Don’t know if I agree with you here. Most people who play college have played tennis from a young age. I have a friend who was d3 and hasnt touched a racket in over a year due to kids but still will pick it up occasionally and wipe the floor with me. You don’t forget that sort of muscle memory. Unless you completely let yourself go physically and not touch it at all for 20 years then maybe, but this guy didnt look like he did either.

So he's lieing.. so he's a ringer and a lier. Automatic grounds for DQ,, Auto bump him to 4.5, report this to disctrict and to National USTA office immediately.

 

[badmice2]

So he's lieing.. so he's a ringer and a lier. Automatic grounds for DQ,, Auto bump him to 4.5, report this to disctrict and to National USTA office immediately.

There is a way around that unfortunately.

On paper any college player must auto self rate at 4.5 minimum. HOWEVER, this doesn’t apply IF the player self rate first THEN play college.

Case in point (in Norcal) I ran into this issue with a player some time back, where an opponent’s player clearly showed up on a JC roster. The player, from my understanding, self rated 4.0 and played some tournaments and league before walking onto the JC team. Since he played USTA prior, I was told by the sectional office that his rating sticks and his alignment to self rate guidance was intact.

Can’t tell you if that’s every case, but I lost my petition for that particular protest.