Formidable players who have won little.

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by KG1965, Mar 19, 2018.

  1. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    Del Potro is a player who has often performed a real GOAT big tournament.
    I can not think of a player name that can beat the Argentine on hardcourt, when he plays at the top of the form.

    What were the players that even if only in a big tournament (not just a match) they played a GOAT tennis but in their career they did not win much.

    Wawinka and Ivanisevic for example. Panatta? Maybe.

    Does any name come to mind?
     
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  2. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    I want to be clear: IMHO Laver, Gonzalez, Borg, Sampras and all the best tennis players at the peak can't win EASILY v Del Potro on hc when the argentinian plays like in the final of Indian Wells.
    I am wrong ?
     
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  3. NatF

    NatF Bionic Poster

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    Federer would have beaten him despite playing subpar for most of the match if his first serve didn't dessert him.
     
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  4. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Safin comes to mind. Only two majors, both on rubber.
    Similar to Del Potro.
     
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  5. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    Maybe Natf but Del Potro yesterday I understand he has done more points than Rog.

    However, my speech is not limited to yesterday.

    I saw a few matches of JM (v i great 3 above) and on hc it seems to me on the same level. I find the argentine devastating. Then it is clear that he lacks continuity, but it is the players with less titles that has reached a very high level on hc.

    As you know, I think that the 2017-18 rivals of Federer and Nadal are of a very low level (excluding Cilic). I have always excluded from all the arguments Del Potro because he was always broken or played without bh ...
    But with a very good bh I think that for some matches, a tournament, perhaps, no more, the argentine reaches a level of play much higher opponents much more titled than previous decades.

    In a slam he would have lost to Federer because nobody runs like Rog, nobody in the world, but JM is an anomaly for me.
     
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  6. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    I can't rank players like Del Potro (or maybe Safin or others probably).:confused:

    I honestly saw a few strong players like JM. The results of a career sometimes betray.:rolleyes:

    Could Connors and Lendl (two of the top all time on hc) beat Del Potro on hc? I don't know.
    Wilander or Rosewall v Del Potro on hc? Hmmmm

    Probably JM would have lost in a slam ... but in big tournament 2/3?

    And then ... if Wilander beat Del Potro in a slam (3/5) meant that Mats was better? Or it's stronger Del Potro than in a final of IW beats Wilander 6-3 6-3?

    I am more and more puzzled about how to put in an all time players ranking like Del Potro.
     
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  7. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Del Potro would give a lot of players problems at his peak.

    I may favor Henri Leconte at his best against Delpo because of his great power plus great volley. I think Leconte would have the first strike capacity but I’m not sure if Leconte would win. Delpo is awesome.
     
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  8. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    pc1, do you know which one I think is the difference between the two?

    Leconte (which for me was = Laver without running) played without killer instict.
    Delpo has the killer instict.
    The opposite of newgen, of nextgen, of Dimitrov, Berdych, Tsonga, ... only chickens.
    Del Potro is the man.
    Obviously he can not run two tournaments in a row.
    But he can beat everyone. ... 2 set on 3...
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  9. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    I can see that. Of course if Delpo was fully healthy over the years and had killer instinct I'm fairly certain he would have taken some majors away from the quartet of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.

    It's funny that the other great Argentine player Guillermo Vilas had the super consistency but not the awesome power of Delpo. He had power but not punishing power. Delpo has the awesome forehand power but not the consistency of Vilas and balance off both sides of Vilas.

    I would think that Frank Kovacs was another one of those players with unbelievable power and talent to beat all time greats. Some put him in the category of Vines and Hoad as far as being great when on his game.
     
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  10. Thomas195

    Thomas195 Semi-Pro

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    Richard Krajicek, Michael Stich, Mark Phillippoussis, Goran Ivanisevic (on grass only), Mario Ancic (on grass only).

    I would say Boris Becker won "little" because he had the qualities of a double-digit slam winner.
     
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  11. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Legend

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    Lew Hoad.

    Yes, I said it.

    :cool:
     
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  12. Mainad

    Mainad Bionic Poster

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    Well, I hope he would have confined his takeaways to the first 3. Unlike them, Andy hasn't got enough to spare! ;)
     
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  13. FedTheMan

    FedTheMan Professional

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    Look, Delpo is an amazing player and full congrats to him for an excellent win yesterday. However, there are a few players who can beat JMDP even if he plays at his best (this is assuming his opponent is also playing their best).

    Federer (2007AO form, 2004 USO final form), Djokovic (2011AO form, 2011 USO form) , Nadal (2010 USO form, 2009 AO form), Agassi (1995AO form), Sampras (1995 USO form).

    Federer is probably the greatest HC player of all time and it always takes a monumental effort from Del Potro to even win against Roger.
    Djokovic is legendary on HC and would suffocate Del potro from the back of the court as he is the greatest baseliner on HC and would be redirecting shots all day long.
    Nadal is underrated on HC and in his peak form, he can be devastating especially in his 2010 USO form and I can envision him beating a peak Del Potro in a 5 set match.
    Agassi would destroy Delpo at the AO and would definitely have a chance at the USO.
    Sampras is probably the most offensively gifted player and he would have great chances to take the racket out of Juan's hands.


    JMDP is amazing on HC and especially at the USO as shown in his 2009 run which was one of the most impressive slam wins of all time. The problem is that he is not that good at the Australian Open. He is not as formidable across all HC contrary to someone like Djokovic, who is dominant on almost all HC.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  14. Druss

    Druss Hall of Fame

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    I’d have to say Safin. Guy didn’t win much considering his amazing talent. Peak for peak Safin beats Delpo.
     
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  15. BorgCash

    BorgCash Hall of Fame

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    Wawrinka won 3 GS tournaments, is it not much?
     
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  16. BorgCash

    BorgCash Hall of Fame

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    Federer could be beaten in the semis.
     
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  17. BorgCash

    BorgCash Hall of Fame

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    Miloslav Mecir
     
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  18. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Easy to say, hard to support....
     
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  19. NatF

    NatF Bionic Poster

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    Indeed, Federer obviously wasn't in top form. Still a fine win by Del Potro though.
     
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  20. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Was Delpo feasting on Fed’s first serve as his delectable dessert?
    ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  21. NatF

    NatF Bionic Poster

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    Nah it was a lack of tasty first serves and stale second serves that were the problem.
     
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  22. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    Leconte’s stroke production and power were similar to Laver’s. His athleticism and champion’s competitiveness and toughness were not.
     
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  23. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    Tommy Haas and Pat Rafter come to mind.
     
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  24. BorgCash

    BorgCash Hall of Fame

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    No doubt about it! HMDP is on the rise!
     
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  25. NatF

    NatF Bionic Poster

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    Delpo is one of my favourites so really great to see him finally get a masters. He's always been very strong mentally, only his body has held him back. Looked good off the backhand side on Sunday so hopefully it's a sign of things to come.
     
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  26. BorgCash

    BorgCash Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, he's my man too. So shame he lost his beloved dog Cesar, he dedicated this victory to him.
     
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  27. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Touché.

    So less than fresh leftovers.
     
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  28. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Legend

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    Only 4 amateur majors and 0 pro majors.

    Not that hard to support.
     
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  29. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    You have not kept up with our discoveries on this forum...3 pro majors, including two super-majors (TOC).
    I guess you took a vacation.
     
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  30. jaggy

    jaggy Talk Tennis Guru

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    Just about every French male who reached the top 20 post Noah and even Noah in a way.
     
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  31. eman resu

    eman resu Professional

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    Nalbandian, anyone? He could be better than most when he wanted, IMO.
     
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  32. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    Yes, 3 slams are not few in Fedalovic Era.
    There are only a few 1 Master 1000 and 16 titles.
    Wawr is very good for me, I expected 30-35 titles to win.
     
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  33. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    Summary:
    Del Potro
    Haas
    Mecir
    Rafter
    Safin
    Leconte
    Nalbandian
    Hoad
    Krajicek
    Stich
    Phillippoussis
    Ivanisevic
    Ancic

    Roche, Gimeno and Denton ?
     
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  34. Olli Jokinen

    Olli Jokinen Rookie

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    Alberto Mancini, Kent Carlsson, Magnus Larsson, and José Luis Clerc deserve a mention too. Oh, and Cedric Pioline.
     
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  35. Olli Jokinen

    Olli Jokinen Rookie

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    Gabriela Sabatini!
     
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  36. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    I think that Hoad failed to qualify.
     
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  37. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    What about Ilie Nastase who many consider the most talented player in history?

    Gimeno was good but I'm beginning to wonder if he has a better reputation here than he should have because he played on the Old Pro Tour and was always losing in big tournaments to Laver, Gonzalez and Rosewall. Did he really underachieve or did he accomplish what he should have accomplished.

    Some of the players you mentioned there are among the most talented in history.
     
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  38. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    He had unlimited talent but underachieved due to injury.
     
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  39. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    I don't know well Hoad's career, what I know is that many consider him a super-player.
    I am convinced that Hoad has won more than it seems, I think his whole career should be highlighted more.
     
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  40. KG1965

    KG1965 Legend

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    To tell you the truth I mentioned 2 or 3, almost all the names on the list are from the other posters (and I agree).

    Nastase has won a few majors in fact. He has many titles but maybe a few are big (4 Masters GP, 2 Rome, Wembley ...).
    I'd like to do a thread about Nastase titles ... who knows, maybe one day soon ....
     
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  41. PDJ

    PDJ Legend

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    Mandlikova: yes she won majors but was unlucky that she had both Evert and Navratilova to contend with and could rarely beat both in the same tournament. And invariably she'd have to do exactly that if both were playing. Her US Open win being the sole exception in terms of majors.
     
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  42. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    Del Potro has won a lot. He has 22 titles.
     
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  43. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Many of Hoad's greatest achievements as a pro were almost unknown until recently.
     
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  44. Mainad

    Mainad Bionic Poster

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    Nastase won 58 singles titles including 2 Majors (1972 US Open,1973 French Open) and 3 other finals ((1971 French Open, 1972 and 1976 Wimbledon). He also won 4 Year-End Championships (1971-3,1975) and 1 other final (1974).
     
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  45. StringSnapper

    StringSnapper Professional

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    Nalbandian
     
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  46. BorgCash

    BorgCash Hall of Fame

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    Mecir. The biggest victories - WCT Finals in 1987 and gold medal at 1988 Olympics.
     
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  47. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Tsonga was mentioned above but he had a few moments of glory beating Nadal and Federer in majors but could never get across the finish line at a slam. Nalbandian was another great player who didn't win big. Coria's failure to win the French is perhaps the biggest disappointment. He was dominate on clay for a few years before Nadal came along and Coria lost French final to Guadio after being up 2 sets.
     
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  48. MLRoy

    MLRoy Professional

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    I remember Chris saying fairly recently (last year or so) that she would be happy playing against her. Kind of a pigeon, I guess.
     
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  49. Mainad

    Mainad Bionic Poster

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    He didn't win the biggest but he still won fairly big with a WTF title (beating Federer) and 2 Masters titles (beat Federer and Nadal) to his name.

    Was he really ever dominant on clay? Aside from his lone RG final which he lost he also won only 2 clay Masters titles (2003 Hamburg and 2004 Monte Carlo).
     
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  50. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Coria was very strong in 2002, 2003, and 2004 before he fell apart after losing RG. He was a strong favorite to win RG in 2004.

    Runner-up 1. 7 May 2001 Majorca, Spain Clay [​IMG] Alberto Martín 3–6, 6–3, 2–6
    Runner-up 3. 24 February 2003 Buenos Aires, Argentina Clay [​IMG] Carlos Moyá 3–6, 6–4, 4–6
    Runner-up 4. 21 April 2003 Monte-Carlo, Monaco Clay [​IMG] Juan Carlos Ferrero 2–6, 2–6
    Winner 2. 12 May 2003 Hamburg, Germany Clay [​IMG] Agustín Calleri 6–3, 6–4, 6–4
    Winner 3. 14 July 2003 Stuttgart, Germany Clay [​IMG] Tommy Robredo 6–2, 6–2, 6–1
    Winner 4. 21 July 2003 Kitzbühel, Austria Clay [​IMG] Nicolás Massú 6–1, 6–4, 6–2
    Winner 5. 28 July 2003 Sopot, Poland Clay [​IMG] David Ferrer 7–5, 6–1
    Winner 7. 16 February 2004 Buenos Aires, Argentina Clay [​IMG] Carlos Moyá 6–4, 6–1
    Winner 8. 19 April 2004 Monte-Carlo, Monaco Clay [​IMG] Rainer Schüttler 6–2, 6–1, 6–3
    Runner-up 6. 17 May 2004 Hamburg, Germany Clay [​IMG] Roger Federer 6–4, 4–6, 2–6, 3–6
    Runner-up 7. 7 June 2004 French Open, Paris, France Clay [​IMG] Gastón Gaudio 6–0, 6–3, 4–6, 1–6, 6–8
     
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