Formula 1

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
If was talking about DRS in the last lap my dude, don't tell me that was planned from the start.
i understand what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that the events of the last lap were the outcome of bad decision making by Hamilton, not a random stroke of luck.
 

dkmura

Semi-Pro
Qualifying for the Mexican GP is over, and for those who thought Red Bull had this race won, think again! Mercedes responded with a lockout of the front row on this high-altitude circuit. It'll be interesting to see how the polesitter (Bottas) will help his teammate (Hamilton) on the start, as points here will be critical for the championship stretch.
 

dkmura

Semi-Pro
Not sure if anyone watched the Mexican GP, but the decisive pass was made at the start. Verstappen drafted down the pit straight and elected to make an outside pass into T1. Since he was on the racing line, he delayed braking just a bit and had the traction to pass both Mercedes and hold the lead. Scintillating stuff! After that, RBR held most of the cards, as Bottas got spun by one of the McLarens and couldn't help Hamilton out. While Perez closed down in third, it was a popular finish in Mexico. If Max wins this 2021 WC title, this may have been his finest moment.
 
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dkmura

Semi-Pro
Yeah, but Bottas got 1 pt for fastest lap, so there is that.....
Well, every point counts, but did you notice that RBR has almost pulled even with Mercedes in the Constructors standings? If this momentum keeps up, RBR could dethrown Mercedes in both championships (driver and team) for 2021. That would be a monumental achievement.
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
What an unbelievable start by Verstappen and a crazy first corner. Was a bit disappointing that the race itself lacked any real drama, but RBR fans probably aren’t complaining I guess :laughing:
 
Bottas dropped the ball, but given the pace of the RBs, I'm not sure it would have made a difference even if he covered. The championship race is starting to look decisive — one more victory for Max and it's a two-race margin.
 

dkmura

Semi-Pro
At the start, Bottas did what most good racing drivers do: block the inside and make the overtaking driver attempt an outside pass. But Verstappen beat the odds and made the pass stick. It was a great move!
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
Bottas shouldn't be catching flak, that's just excuse making. Nobody expected Verstappen to be able to catch the slipstream and slingshot himself off the start and pull himself even with the Mercedes pair. On a normal start with him entering the corner behind Bottas, even if he had the racing line he wouldn't have been able to simply outbrake them to take the lead.

That's just good driving by Verstappen in a superior car. and no, I'm not a Red Bull or Verstappen fan.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
Bottas SO needs to go to Alfa....he is so checked out from MB...smh chuckling. He cannot wait for season to end. Wouldn't surprise me if last race he accidentally has contact with Lewis.
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
that would be entertaining. not quite prost/senna level, but would certainly create intrigue. he wouldn't dare do it as a clear #2, he'd limit the number of teams that would hire him.

 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
that would be entertaining. not quite prost/senna level, but would certainly create intrigue. he wouldn't dare do it as a clear #2, he'd limit the number of teams that would hire him.

Yeah, but he's already signed with Alfa Romeo for next year.... I bet he doesn't want Lewis to take title, nor Constructors either.
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
Yeah, but he's already signed with Alfa Romeo for next year.... I bet he doesn't want Lewis to take title, nor Constructors either.
ha. I guess we'll find out how good of a driver he is. if he defies team orders and costs mercedes one of the championships and then languishes on a backmarker team, he won't be long for F1
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
This Qatar track is going to make for quite the spectacle l think.

Long front straight with the DRS is going to provide a ton of passes, and all the high speed corners makes the back side very technical. I think there are going to be a lot of drivers tagged for exceeding track limits.

This will be a firecracker!
 

Feña14

Legend
This Qatar track is going to make for quite the spectacle l think.

Long front straight with the DRS is going to provide a ton of passes, and all the high speed corners makes the back side very technical. I think there are going to be a lot of drivers tagged for exceeding track limits.

This will be a firecracker!
They seem to be suggesting it's going to be really tough to follow and it could be a dull race that's decided by who's ahead after turn 1.

This track is a total unknown though, so hopefully you're right!

I see Sainz, Bottas and Max have been summoned for ignoring the yellow flags at the end of qualifying. I've not seen the on boards so no clue if they're guilty or not. If they are it's what, a 3-5 place grid penalty?
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
All in all, no real drama for the top 2. Nice track. One thing I like is a quick pit window where you can get in and out in around 25 seconds. I thought the high speed corners would give more exceeding track limit warnings, but instead it gave more front tire wear. That is easily correctable for Pirelli. They'll change the compounds and the construction slightly for next time.

2 races to go. Things are tightening up. Lewis vs 2 Red Bulls. And Bottas does not want Lewis & the team to win. Convince me otherwise.
 

dkmura

Semi-Pro
Eight points separates the two title contenders with just a few races to go! This is the best racing we've had in years, and I disagree about the drama. Max took some chances to move from seventh to finish second- enjoyed his drive. Neither Lewis or Max can afford any mistakes at this stage of the season.
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
The first couple of laps were interesting, with a great start by Verstappen and then waiting to see how many laps it took him to get around the other two. Then it was 60+ laps of watching Lewis and Max run away from the field, with Max obviously not having enough pace to catch Lewis and Lewis doing just enough to keep himself at arm's reach to make sure his tires were always in better condition than Max's. Yawn.

The only intrigue was Max trying to set fast lap at the end. Textbook drive by Hamilton.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
Eight points separates the two title contenders with just a few races to go! This is the best racing we've had in years, and I disagree about the drama. Max took some chances to move from seventh to finish second- enjoyed his drive. Neither Lewis or Max can afford any mistakes at this stage of the season.
I dunno, he moved up 3 or 4 spots by the 2nd corner with smart driving, had 2nd place locked up by 5th lap. No real drama, just the 2 fastest cars with the 2 best drivers 30 seconds ahead of everyone else for basically all of the race.

Agreed with the no mistakes tho. On the track or in the pit. And the Red Bull pit crew is the best, so MB better be point perfect.

Gotta think at some point Max and Lewis are gonna be wheel to wheel in a corner....are they gonna race, or is the inside driver gonna play bully and push the other out wide? The precedent has been set that pushing wide is fair play....
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
Gotta think at some point Max and Lewis are gonna be wheel to wheel in a corner....are they gonna race, or is the inside driver gonna play bully and push the other out wide? The precedent has been set that pushing wide is fair play....
...or will one of them have enough balls to Schumacher/Hill or Senna/Prost it? Hope it comes down to the last race 8-B
 

dkmura

Semi-Pro
...or will one of them have enough balls to Schumacher/Hill or Senna/Prost it? Hope it comes down to the last race 8-B
Running into your competitor or causing an accident is NOT what I call good racing. I hope Verstappen and Hamilton race hard and fair into these last few races.
 

Hidious

Professional
I don't think there are that many people here that deep into F1 details to answer clearly, but I'm debating with a friend about how many % of Mercedes clear advantage last two races was due to the new engine vs the sketchy wear wing shenanigan's going on. A fresh engine is great for sure, but that much performance increase? I'm 50-50, what do you guys think?
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
I don't think there are that many people here that deep into F1 details to answer clearly, but I'm debating with a friend about how many % of Mercedes clear advantage last two races was due to the new engine vs the sketchy wear wing shenanigan's going on. A fresh engine is great for sure, but that much performance increase? I'm 50-50, what do you guys think?
Tough to know how much impact any specific change has, but AFAIK Mercedes used different engines in Brazil and Qatar.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
I don't think there are that many people here that deep into F1 details to answer clearly, but I'm debating with a friend about how many % of Mercedes clear advantage last two races was due to the new engine vs the sketchy wear wing shenanigan's going on. A fresh engine is great for sure, but that much performance increase? I'm 50-50, what do you guys think?
My opinion, the wing is a negligible difference. There is some flex in the wings, and the issue was there was slightly too much flex. You're talking 1 or 2 millimeters.

The bigger issue for the MB wing is that if they are not in compliance, then it is a grid penalty or even a DQ. THAT is Red Bull's aim. (And same with MB looking at RB)...find transgressions to penalize the other team with grid or DQ.

As for the engine, a new engine is stronger. That is no question. Did MB make other changes from R & D?

Also, the venue is important too. Certain tracks play to the strength of the different chassis and engine.

My take- it's not the wing. It's the millions of dollars supporting the research. There is probably shenanigans going on with both teams, but there is also honest race development taking place through the whole race season. They discovered or developed some improvement which is making a difference.
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
My take- it's not the wing. It's the millions of dollars supporting the research.
I think this is correct. The rules are in place to keep teams in the same ballpark from a competitiveness standpoint, but there are precious few individual design or technology advances that make drastic differences. The flex of the wing does probably confer a slight advantage via decreased downforce at high speeds, but by itself probably not a game changer. You're not putting a flexible wing on an AlphaTauri and turning into a constructor championship car.

That being said, there have been specific technology advances that changed the game and were outlawed or controlled -- the Chaparral downforce fan, the BMW turbo engine, computer controlled starts, computerized traction control, and active suspension are the ones that come to mind.

What you're seeing in MB is accumulation of all the best stuff going.
 

Feña14

Legend
I don't think there are that many people here that deep into F1 details to answer clearly, but I'm debating with a friend about how many % of Mercedes clear advantage last two races was due to the new engine vs the sketchy wear wing shenanigan's going on. A fresh engine is great for sure, but that much performance increase? I'm 50-50, what do you guys think?
It's an interesting question!

Mercedes were so far ahead of Red Bull last year, and had been for years. The FIA then changed the rules for this season, which essentially meant that high rake cars would have a huge advantage. Red Bull were the original adopters of this whilst Mercedes still had a low rake car that relied on fancy aerodynamic qualities to give the rear stability. Those were all banned and Mercedes struggled massively, their car for this year was essentially flawed.

Why didn't they fix it? Well next year is when the regulations change and everyone has to come up with a car that will be the foundation for the next decade, spending time addressing this years car would have been an error that they would be paying for years down the line. Red Bull saw their chance and have thrown everything at this year whilst Mercedes have done very little this year (updates wise) and instead focused on next years car all season.

What has changed in the last few races? Mercedes seem to have gotten a better understanding about their car for this year, although it's flawed in many ways, it's DNA is still that of the championship winning cars over the last 7 years. It's a lot harder to get the set up right, all the base settings from years past are now worthless (Mercedes winning at Red Bull tracks like Brazil, but performing poorly at tracks they usually dominate at COTA). Remember Max's radio message 5 laps into the COTA race? He was almost laughing at how much the rear of Hamilton's car was sliding after 5 laps.

So my take is that Red Bull threw everything at this year after being handed an opportunity by the FIA, Mercedes have been trying to figure out this years car that is missing all of the rear stability as a result of this.. the last few races they have got a better understanding (or maybe got lucky and stumbled across a setup at those tracks that helped). Will they be able to do the same at the last two races? Time will tell.

All the Red Bull shenanigans over recent weeks are a result of them being given an open goal this year, they knew Mercedes were fighting with one hand behind their back and anything less than winning the title would be a disaster for them. Red Bull looked nailed on favourites all year but the last few races the momentum seems to have swung back to Mercedes so they're panicking (hence why they're protesting about rear wings, engines, verbally abusing stewards etc..).
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
So my take is that Red Bull threw everything at this year after being handed an opportunity by the FIA, Mercedes have been trying to figure out this years car that is missing all of the rear stability as a result of this.. the last few races they have got a better understanding (or maybe got lucky and stumbled across a setup at those tracks that helped). Will they be able to do the same at the last two races? Time will tell.
That's an interesting take but I would bet the farm that a) it's not as simple as that and b) there is no way a high resource team like RB isn't already on the drawing board for the 2022 car.

One limiting factor for many F1 teams (at least it was back in the day) is the number of wind tunnels in the world. Everyone is fighting for wind tunnel time and you have to be planning way ahead to rent enough wind tunnel time to test your aerodynamics. IIRC, 30 years ago Ferrari was the only team that had their own wind tunnel, not sure what the situation is today. I'm sure computer modeling has drastically reduced the actual amount of physical testing that needs to be done, but I'm sure nobody is relying entirely on simulated tests.
 

Feña14

Legend
That's an interesting take but I would bet the farm that a) it's not as simple as that and b) there is no way a high resource team like RB isn't already on the drawing board for the 2022 car.

One limiting factor for many F1 teams (at least it was back in the day) is the number of wind tunnels in the world. Everyone is fighting for wind tunnel time and you have to be planning way ahead to rent enough wind tunnel time to test your aerodynamics. IIRC, 30 years ago Ferrari was the only team that had their own wind tunnel, not sure what the situation is today. I'm sure computer modeling has drastically reduced the actual amount of physical testing that needs to be done, but I'm sure nobody is relying entirely on simulated tests.
Oh yeah absolutely, this is Formula 1, if only things were ever this simple :-D it's definitely a combination of things.

My take is that the things I mentioned have been the biggest factor this season. Mercedes wiped the floor with Red Bull for 7 years, the gap was as big as it's ever been last season. The rule changes for this season has been the biggest difference imo, it's the only way this season could be close. For Mercedes to have fought back recently suggests to me that they've found a set up solution (there have been no physical upgrades). Sure, maybe the 0.2mm wing contributed a fraction of half a tenth. They didn't use the new engine last time and were still half a second quicker than Red Bull in qualifying (despite both cars having the same top speed at the speed traps in that race).

All the things Red Bull have been accusing Mercedes of don't come anywhere close to accounting for the massive swing towards Mercedes. That can only be achieved by a combination of a massive upgrade, perfect car set up, godly driving by one of the best to ever do it and your main rival getting things wrong. Maybe Horner has been too busy looking at photos of the Mercedes and complaining to the stewards, taken his eye off the ball kind of thing.
 

Feña14

Legend
It is not legal change anything to the engine during the season, you cannot fix or change anything that would improve performance AFAIK.
I know that's how they do it in MotoGP (much to Yamaha's dismay last season :laughing:).

I'm pretty sure you can bring an upgrade to an engine once a season in Formula 1 though. Honda usually do it at Suzuka with the "Japan Special". Ferrari had a big upgrade half a dozen races ago, which has played a big part in why they've been doing so well.

No idea if Mercedes made any changes to the new one in Brazil, i'd be interested to know that. I assumed it was more to do with it being the same spec but ran harder as they also introduced a new engine in Turkey. That meant they essentially had 2 fresh engines in the pool for the final 6 races. At the start of the season they're trying to make 3 engines last 23 races, so turning the wick up early on wasn't really an option.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
It is not legal change anything to the engine during the season, you cannot fix or change anything that would improve performance AFAIK.
There is A LOT more they can R & D/change then just the engine. Other than the tires.
Could be something as simple as tire pressure or camber, etc. I know that for a fact working with Indy tires for 20+ years. Teams CONSTANTLY fiddled with pressures and camber and toe, often way outside recommendations.
 

Hidious

Professional
There is A LOT more they can R & D/change then just the engine. Other than the tires.
Stating the obvious. My question was about the new engine vs the rear wing. Please don't start with the tire pressure and the million other things that can be tweaked by engineers.

Anyways, I got my answer:
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
Sure. Crystal clear. Merc's got a stronger engine, sorted out their balance in corners and straights, and Lewis is uber focused, while RB is down on power, hasn't sorted out their wing, and Horner is throwing darts at MB trying to create an issue.

So yeah, crystal clear on what % is the MB advantage due to engine vs wing.
 

Shangri La

Hall of Fame
That was pretty crazy lol. Good drama. Mercedes seems to have the faster car. I wonder who wins if both couldn't complete the next race, the one with more wins? In that case I wonder what would Verstappen do :unsure:
 

happyandbob

Hall of Fame
Was at son's soccer tournament all day and did not get to watch it live. Sounds like an interesting race, I'm excited to watch it.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
That was pretty crazy lol. Good drama. Mercedes seems to have the faster car. I wonder who wins if both couldn't complete the next race, the one with more wins? In that case I wonder what would Verstappen do :unsure:
Wouldn't surprise me. I thought when Max brake tested Lewis, he had that in mind. (If I have to give up this place to Lewis, screw it, I'll end the race for both of us)

Many times Max drives VERY aggressive, then when he gets penalized, he cries that he isn't allowed to race. Same with Horner. Questionable tactics, then cry the victim.
 
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