forward unit turn position AND racquet pointing forwards??

#1
Wawrinka releases his racket a bit in front than most players.


Thiem has his racquet tip pointing forwards in the unit turn position but his hand is quite back relative to his body before releasing.



Am wondering which pro releases his racquet in front of his body like Wawrinka but has the tip pointing forwards like Thiem. Net result is his racquet tip REALLY out in front before he releases it??


Tiafoe seems to be such a candidate.
 
Last edited:
#2
I would not be too concerned of where the racket head is relative to the target. The thing that is important, is that where it is relative to your forearm and grip determines a big part of that. Prep is all about getting the head behind the hitting hand as late as possible in order to accelerate hard thru the ball.

However the more forward the hand the racket head, the faster it has to move into the flip and back loop before it hits the ball. If you prepare with racket back like, say Gulbis, you need to make it lag more consciously with a lot of intentional ESR and/or supination and woun’t have as much SCC naturally as Tiafoe or Thiem.

I think Fede is about as mellow on this as anybody, and his prep might be the best to emulate for us hacks. If that shall work for him, it should work for us too. Then again you might want to experiment something more extreme, but it would be good enough mechanics even, if you did not.

Key is to instead of hitting the ball, throw the racket backwards as you start your forward swing and get that RHS ’for free’.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
Last edited:
#3
I would not be too concerned of where the racket head is relative to the target. The thing that is important, is that where it is relative to your forearm and grip determines a big part of that. Prep is all about getting the head behind the hitting hand as late as possible in order to accelerate hard thru the ball.

However the more forward the hand the racket head, the faster it has to move into the flip and back loop before it hits the ball. If you prepare with racket back like, say Gulbis, you need to make it lag more consciously with a lot of intentional ESR and/or supination and woun’t have as much SCC naturally as Tiafoe or Thiem.

I think Fede is about as mellow on this as anybody, and his prep might be the best to emulate for us hacks. If that shall work for him, it should work for us too. Then again you might want to experiment something more extreme, but it would be good enough mechanics even, if you did not.

Key is to instead of hitting the ball, throw the racket backwards as you start your forward swing and get that RHS ’for free’.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

What’s SCC?

Throw racquet back as I start the forward swing??? So does that mean minimal time between racquet being fully extended and striking the ball?
 
#4
What’s SCC?

Throw racquet back as I start the forward swing??? So does that mean minimal time between racquet being fully extended and striking the ball?
Stretch shortening cycle. It enhances the muscular force moving an object by stretching the muscles, while working against the momentum of the mass of your racket and hand movig away the intentioned striking direction.

When the moment of inertia is countered right after the hand and racket have been stretched out and lagged the speed increase is multiplied by the amount of stretch before the directional change.

In other words, you are supposed to strike before the racket moves forward and get an additional burst of force deployed.

That is why I allways try to emphasize the importance of rythm, instead of proper positions and shear force in sports.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
Last edited:
#5
Stretch shortening cycle. It enhances the muscular force moving an object by stretching the muscles, while working against the momentum of the mass of your racket and hand movig away the intentioned striking direction.

When the moment of inertia is countered right after the hand and racket have been stretched out and lagged the speed increase is multiplied by the amount of stretch before the directional change.

In other words, you are supposed to strike before the racket moves forward and get an additional burst of force deployed.

That is why I allways try to emphasize the importance of rythm, instead of proper positions and shere force in sports.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
You think Thiem does this SCC very well?? He has a long extension which gives him even more leverage.
 
#6
You think Thiem does this SCC very well?? He has a long extension which gives him even more leverage.
He could do better, but yes, he does that too, while lagging the racket in the beginning of his forward motion.

Leverage is kind of the same thing in common language, but as in Thiem’s case the stretch comes by slightly different mechanicks than in say Fede or Nadal.

SSC is very seldom properly explained and it is kind of in the margin of this golf video too.

But as you can find here Rory McIlroy starts his downswing with his feet before his hands reaches the top of the back swing. That’s where the magic happens.



——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
Last edited:
#7
He could do better, but yes, he does that too, while lagging the racket in the beginning of his forward motion.

Leverage is kind of the same thing in common language, but as in Thiem’s case the stretch comes by slightly different mechanicks than in say Fede or Nadal.

SSC is very seldom properly explained and it is kind of in the margin of this golf video too.

But as you can find here Rory McIlroy starts his downswing with his feet before his hands reaches the top of the back swing. That’s where the magic happens.



——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
Which muscles you think get stretched in FH motion?
 
#8
Which muscles you think get stretched in FH motion?
If the kinetic chain works properly, I think at least diagonal abbs and shoulder/arm muscles. Also split stepping and stepping thru the shot would release some energy from your legs, if timed properly.

If you look at Federer’s easy warm-up videos, when he hits lazy looking forehands, there is a small hump up and down in his feet turning the torso, yet no particular forward step is present.

Even though you’d prepare early, there is some stretch in the core/upper body, if you start by turning the hips, as they deliver speed to the shoulder turn.

If on the other hand you would only turn your shoulders, the transfer from core is either weak or there is none and speeding up the hand is mostly arm and shoulder muscles.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
Last edited:
#9
If the kinetic chain works properly, I think at least diagonal abbs and shoulder/arm muscles. Also split stepping and stepping thru the shot would release some energy from your legs, if timed properly.

If you look at Federer’s easy warm-up videos, when he hits lazy looking forehands, there is a small hump up and down in his feet turning the torso, yet no particular forward step is present.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
Split step is well divided from the shot, huh?
Arm muscles are biceps, triceps, and forearm muscles, i can only think of pronators pre-stretch as possibly contributing.
The issue with the idea is if you try to stretch your arm against a wall, it gets behind the torso plane, which never happens for Fed. There’re 2 ways to inhibit arm getting behind the torso plane, which one you apply to your model swing?
 
#10
Split step is well divided from the shot, huh?
Arm muscles are biceps, triceps, and forearm muscles, i can only think of pronators pre-stretch as possibly contributing.
The issue with the idea is if you try to stretch your arm against a wall, it gets behind the torso plane, which never happens for Fed. There’re 2 ways to inhibit arm getting behind the torso plane, which one you apply to your model swing?
Yeah, the split was a touch too far fetched. But it clarifies the idea of SSC. Were you standing on your feet flat footed, you could not bounce quickly anywhere.

The wall comparision does not work, cause SSC is not ”stretching” nor about extreme movability, but a result of dynamics with moving parts and moment of inertia of the parts moving to opposite or at least different directions.

Movability determines, wether or not the upper arm can be delayed behind shoulder, which it usually isn’t. However, if your arm is swinging low, you can lag it behind the shoulder line. In a stroke you do not want that, but wish to have it lagging kind of from the front of your shoulders to the shoulderline.

I do not know, if SSC and its force can be measured easily, but to it to happen does not require extreme movability, but proper rythm and timing.

Jumping a rope boxer style is all about SSC in the calves.



——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
#11
The question is, can shortened, tight muscle go through extra power generating SSC, or this only works with relaxed muscles? @Chas Tennis
I agree at least rhythm-wise, reaction-wise, things like split-step work. But is it SSC with titin in muscles acting as rubber band, or is this actually a facilitation of muscles shortening by giving extra resistance and triggering extra effort earlier, timed to intended instance? Like if you don't splitstep/bounce your muscles get the signal and start major shortening effort later?

The most commonly known utilization of SSC in tennis is serving, marked by deep racquet drop which you don't achieve statically by muscle effort. It happens at max internal rotators' stretch, while they are fully relaxed.
 
Last edited:
#12
The question is, can shortened, tight muscle go through extra power generating SSC, or this only works with relaxed muscles? @Chas Tennis
I agree at least rhythm-wise, reaction-wise, things like split-step work. But is it SSC with titin in muscles acting as rubber band, or is this actually a facilitation of muscles shortening by giving extra resistance and triggering extra effort earlier, timed to intended instance? Like if you don't splitstep/bounce your muscles get the signal and start major shortening effort later?

The most commonly known utilization of SSC in tennis is serving, marked by deep racquet drop which you don't achieve statically by muscle effort. It happens at max internal rotators' stretch, while they are fully relaxed.
The same ”racket drop” idea is deployed in the flip-forehand motion. But in horizontal direction.

I believe, SSC doesn’t work if 100% contraction, but as I have learned in othes sports, it is around 30% of full strength defining relaxed, that allows explosive power delivery.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
Last edited:
#14
Hopefully this doesn't derail the topic, but can you elaborate on the rhythm aspect?
The position of your rh in prep defines proper timing for a shot. Correct contact timing and positioning is most commonly explained as rythm being in sync.

However, that is the most recognizable part of the rythm - easy to point out and understand.

The more important rythm is your sequencing moving the equipment, pushing and pulling by your muscles in correct order in time to be in time to hit the ball at your desired position relative to your body with racket head accelerating thru impact.

There are lots and lots of rec players, whos athletic skills are below avg, and they move the racket with upside down sequence, because they cannot throw properly and don’t have the determination to learn good mechanics, but to play the game. Pushers hardly ever has ability to hit the ball really hard and in control, because they lack some key parts of the kinetic chain.

Still, they are and may be very succesfull in tournaments and up the ranks, cause they are good players, yet their stroke mechanics are not pristine.

For more of my understanding pm me, if the thread should be ruined otherwise.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
Top