found the secret for instant power and control

[tomp]

A few weeks back, there was some interesting discussion regarding the AP Belt on these boards. Like a few of you, I wasn’t sure if it was a gimmick at first. I checked out the web site and finally called the folks at APBelt.com to learn more. I’m always looking for an extra edge in my game. The person I spoke to at AP Belt was excellent. He didn’t put the hard sell on, just told me what the intention of the belt is. I learned a lot about movement in the 10 minutes I was on the phone. The people at AP Belt certainly believe in their product. They mentioned that a few tour players were beginning to use it and that several Division 1 College Tennis programs have implemented the belt into their training regimen. After speaking with them, I decided to give the belt a try.



Let me tell you, in my opinion, it is worth the $$. I'm in pretty fair shape for a 40+ year-old. I do lots of interval training, weight training for legs, and keep my weight (somewhat) in check, but after a short, 20-minute workout with the belt, I was pretty spent. What impressed me while using the belt was the way my shots improved immediately. Before using the belt, I truly believed that I stayed low to the ground while moving or hitting a stroke. I quickly learned that this wasn’t the case once I put the belt on. It doesn’t “pull” you into an athletic stance, but reminds you with a little tug when you move out of one. I felt my fair share of little and big tugs during my first session. I was working a lot harder, but the payoff was that I realized a dramatic improvement in the quality of the ball I hit. I was more consistent. My balls seemed deeper and a little “heavier” than usual. As I said before, I was only able to last for about 2 to 3 minute sessions then 1 minute rests for a total of about 20 minutes. After finally taking it off, my legs told me they had a workout on par or even a little more intense than a heavy squatting session. I’m pretty confident that if I use the belt consistently, it will give me the edge that I am looking for. I can see how it will help me improve my movement skills and get me into better “tennis shape”. I just hope that I get a few months head start before other people at my club pick these up, as my advantage could quickly disappear. I’m pretty sold on this device. In fact, I think it’s the best training device since the medicine ball (old school).

 

[atatu]

Thanks for your post, very informative.

 

[tomp]

No problem Atatu. I really enjoy using the belt so i get a great workout, and improve my skills at the same time.
I'll let you know how it translates to a match.

 

[degreefanlindi]

Belt

That's interesting to know. Thanks for sharing your story and I look forward to hearing more about this..especially since you mentioned it's being used by more D-I college athletes. I will have to check it out. Power and control are good things!

 

[goober]

Thx for the info although I always find it somewhat suspicious for somebody to register on a forum and their first and only post is promoting a product.

$150 seems steep for something that looks like it cost <$10 to make.

Anybody else tried it?

 

[tomp]

AP Belt

I understand. I've been coming on the boards as a "guest" for a long time...always enjoy reading comments about the players, fitness, and tips. I'd seen a lot about the belt and thought i'd take a look into it. So happens that i got it as an early X-mas present!
I'm not into wasting money on anything, except court-time. But i am a fanatic when it concerns my on-court fitness and movement...as most of my opponents are better players, i figure if i'm fitter, it's the one advantage i can control.
I look at the prices of fitness machines in general and thought this was reasonable, and totally sport specific. It's pretty high quality when you see the way it's put together, i can see it holding up even with a lot of use. For the cost of 2 hitting lessons at my club, i think it was a good investment.

 

[vin]

$150 seems steep for something that looks like it cost <$10 to make.

Anybody else tried it?

I agree. The original asking price was $175. I built one myself for $60 and am convinced I could have done it for cheaper.

Here's a picture:

picture removed - read on.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

$150 seems steep for something that looks like it cost <$10 to make.

Anybody else tried it?

I agree. The original asking price was $175. I built one myself for $60 and am convinced I could have done it for cheaper.

Here's a picture:

Good stuff Vin.

For those of us that dont have the time to make one, the AP belt is the answer.

$150 seems steep until you take some lessons from a performance improvement coach. At $50+ a lesson that can get pretty expensive.
The AP Belt pays for itself in three lessons. If you have the time, you can make the belt for less as Vin has shown.

I would be curious Vin if you can give us an honest assessment on the quality of your belt and its durability later on.

 

[kreative]

vin, where did you find the stuff to make it? do you have an email addy?

 

[vin]

removed - read on.

 

[Mj]

I'm sure the belt is great for training the legs & the mind while it's being used but i'm worried that during a match with no feedback present you will go back to old habits and not bend the knees enough.
How long do you have to use the belt until it becomes automatic during match play?

 

[Marius_Hancu]

I'm sure the belt is great for training the legs & the mind while it's being used but i'm worried that during a match with no feedback present you will go back to old habits and not bend the knees enough.
How long do you have to use the belt until it becomes automatic during match play?

Difficult anwer ...

But I'm pretty sure this varies with age, ingrained habits, your conditioning, and so on.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Before you guys do anything like this - hold the phone. Let me talk to the maker for a special. I dont think Vins bungee cord is the same and therefore is inferior. If I remember correctly, the AP belts bungee is the key element in the feedback it provides and must be of high quality and throughly tested against other bungee cords made. Since Vin has not gone through this process I doubt we are talking apples to apples.

Let me see what I can do for you guys.

 

[kevhen]

Are you getting paid to promote the AP belt? So Vins is inferior? It may be different using a different tension of bungee and making adjustments in the length might take a little longer, but it looks pretty darn similar and half the price with a little bit of extra labor involved.

How many of you people are actually wearing these things in public anyway? Can you still serve and play a match in one? How long before people stop wearing them? I do agree they would promote a good habit of staying low. Lately without the belt I have been trying to stay lower and hitting the ball while more compact and coiled and I like the feeling.

But if does seem like Bill is making money off these.

 

[vin]

I dont think Vins bungee cord is the same and therefore is inferior. If I remember correctly, the AP belts bungee is the key element in the feedback it provides and must be of high quality and throughly tested against other bungee cords made.

Here's some more info about the bungee cord I used.

1. The web site labels it as a 'heavy duty' bungee cord.

2. It is 3/8" thick.

3. It takes a good amount of force to stretch it.

4. When using the belt, I am fully aware of the cord being stretched as soon as it is stretched. I think the feedback I get is fine. It is actually difficult to remain in a position with the cord stretched.

Maybe this cord will wear out quicker than the one on the AP belt, but I would be surprised if that were the case. How big could the range in bungee cord quality possibly be? The cord is less than $10 to replace. If it wears out quick, you can always buy a thicker one. Besides, I figure most people on this board would be buying the belt for their own use and it wouldn't get hammered from a extensive use like it would by an instructor having a lot of students using it.

For anyone thinking of building one themselves, they simply have to decide if saving $90 or more is worth the risk of their home made belt not performing identically to the AP belt. I'm happy with mine. It does what I expected it to.

 

[atatu]

Bill, if you can swing a "TW posters" special let me know, I'd be interested.....

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Are you getting paid to promote the AP belt? So Vins is inferior? It may be different using a different tension of bungee and making adjustments in the length might take a little longer, but it looks pretty darn similar and half the price with a little bit of extra labor involved.

How many of you people are actually wearing these things in public anyway? Can you still serve and play a match in one? How long before people stop wearing them? I do agree they would promote a good habit of staying low. Lately without the belt I have been trying to stay lower and hitting the ball while more compact and coiled and I like the feeling.

But if does seem like Bill is making money off these.

The bungee cords are not the same. The belt and the ankle straps are not the key to the AP belt system. It is the type and the quality of the bungee cord that makes the difference.

If someone has tested the different bungee cords available and determined that only one fit the performance guidelines wouldnt you think that the AP belt might be different and the other bungee cords would be inferior? Isn't this common sense?

The bungee cord IS the feedback system and is the most critical part of the AP Belt. According to the maker, the bungee cord was so critical that several bungee cords including the one Vin is using provided an inferior feedback compared to the one the AP belt is using.

There are thousands of people using them right now. I just mentioned Coria is now using them in his training and I am sure many others will as well. It is that good of a training device. Why don't you just call the AP Belt maker and ask your questions.

Also, I haven't made a dime off of them. But with all the information I have provided this board would it really matter? If I got the price point down so people have no reason not to buy one shouldn't the work be rewarded? I am trying to get the price point to almost the same price range as Vin made his with a much better quality bungee cord.

But for you the price stays the same.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Bill, if you can swing a "TW posters" special let me know, I'd be interested.....

You got it bro, stay tuned.

 

[djbrown]

I, too, would be interested if the price point lowered a bit.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

How many of you people are actually wearing these things in public anyway?

Looking at vin's pictures, I bet a lot of people (and their PARTNERS) are wearing 'em in private!! :twisted:

Seriously, thanks for the informative post tomp, good job with the pix vin.....what the hell, I'd buy it......

 

[eagle]

I may consider it (AP belt) also if the price is right.

Thanks,
eagle

 

[JohnYandell]

The Belt and its Maker

At the risk of angering some of you guys, I thought I'd weigh in with a question.
What about Pat Dougherty and the creative thought and effort he put into the belt? I know he has a patent, which I'm sure doesn't affect anyone here unless you guys start trying to sell them to each other, but I think he deserves the support of all the tennis fanatics who will benefit from his invention.
Just my opinion, but I think that the price is reasonable--the concept is worth a lot more than the price of some leather belts and bungy cables.
And yes! I insisted on paying full price for mine.

 

[vin]

Re: The Belt and its Maker

At the risk of angering some of you guys, I thought I'd weigh in with a question.
What about Pat Dougherty and the creative thought and effort he put into the belt? I know he has a patent, which I'm sure doesn't affect anyone here unless you guys start trying to sell them to each other, but I think he deserves the support of all the tennis fanatics who will benefit from his invention.
Just my opinion, but I think that the price is reasonable--the concept is worth a lot more than the price of some leather belts and bungy cables.
And yes! I insisted on paying full price for mine.

I agree to an extent.

If you've read 'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand, you should understand where I'm coming from.

While the AP Belt is a great idea, I think we can all agree that it didn't require genius to create. I think the marketing could have been better directed at promoting Pat's name to generate profit elsewhere. That way the belt would be more accessible and more of a help to the sport of tennis in general and could still make Pat some well deserved money by leading people to his true talent.

And by the way, it's nice to see you're using Linux for your new site (yes, I am anxiously waiting for it to go live). But why Linux? Is Microsoft too expensive? Shouldn't Bill Gates' creative ideas be supported too? :wink:

And I do support Pat. I have several of his Bollettieri videos which I think are great. Maybe I'd buy an AP Belt at full price if he promised to finally produce the sequel to Sonic Serve. I would like to support Pat's idea for the belt also, but the price makes me feel like I am being taken advantage of.

 

[JohnYandell]

Hey, just my opinion. As for the Linux--I'm not too sure that an analogy between PD and Bill Gates falls into the realm of reality.

 

[vin]

Hey, just my opinion. As for the Linux--I'm not too sure that an analogy between PD and Bill Gates falls into the realm of reality.

Ok, maybe it wasn't a great analogy, but it wasn't meant to compare Bill Gates to Pat Dougherty. It was to point out that you may be favoring Linux because you feel that Microsoft products are not worth their cost just as I feel that the AP Belt is not worth it's cost.

Marketing and pricing is a very complex subject, and the ethics behind it make it even more so. I don't know any more about Pat than his good information in his videos. Maybe he's a great guy with good intentions, maybe he's not. I don't know the facts to decide for myself if I think the pricing of the belt is fair. But common sense tells me it's not. I don't have the money to throw around for things like this and I bet a lot of the tennis fanatics you mentioned don't either. Maybe if I knew more about Pat as you and BB do, I'd be more willing to part with the extra money, but that shouldn't be necessary to effectively market a product.

Just my opinion as well. I do my best to be fair and just and don't want to appear as if I'm trying to take away from Pat. The only reason I offered the details of the homemade belt was to help out others who don't have the $150 to spend. For these people, the choice was already made. No belt! For anyone else, they have their own sets of values to decide by.

 

[Morpheus]

Sounds like an infomercial to me...

 

[VJH]

Vin,

Like you, I work in the Software Industry. Every 12-18 months, we launch a new major release. When shipping time comes, the actual cost of the media (CD, Box, Doc, Postage), is in most cases less than $10. But is that the true value of the software? How do you quantify the thousands of man hours that were spent refining, or developing new functionality in the software? How do you put a price tag on Intellectual Property? Do you try to quantify the development time specifically for that particular release? Or is there a dependency upon previous releases. This is an issue that software companies (both large and small) struggle with. One thing is certain however, software companies are fiercely protective of their IP. That is why many software vendors require dongles in certain parts of the world. Think of how frustrated a software vendor becomes when they find pirated use of their IP.

It is also safe to say that “genius” is not found in every new release….In fact, “genius” is rarely found in any release. What is contained in every new release is thousands of man hours….Heavy Lifting so to speak….Sorting through endless lines of code….that require equally enduring testing. At the end of the day, the new version of software is sold at a cost exponentially higher than the price of the media alone.

Who really knows how long the AP Belt has been in development. I don’t know how many prototypes were tested…..on how many players. It does appear that the item currently being offered is significantly different than the one used in “Killer Forehand”. What is the value of that IP? That testing? Based on the cost of your belt, and the price of the AP Belt, you are looking at a mark-up of approximately 2.5X.

How is this pricing scheme any different than racquet pricing? I’m sure the rackets that we both used cost no more than $35 to make….Yet they are priced in the $150 - $200 range. You are looking at a mark-up of 5+X…..While this may seem like a lot, it is significantly less than the mark up Software vendors apply to their IP. If you look at it from this perspective, I don’t think the pricing of the AP Belt is unreasonable. I certainly didn’t feel taken advantage of. If the AP Belt didn’t require ingenuity, how come we didn’t bring it to market ourselves years ago? I wish I had thought of it. At the end of the day….I didn’t. I don’t mind paying the person that did.

AS colleagues in the software industry, we both make a nice living from these types of profit margins. That being said, we should be the last to comment on any one’s profit margins or making accusations that one may be taking advantage of the consumer.

 

[vin]

First, for the sake of not taking away from Pat incase he did in fact intensively labor over producing the belt, I removed my information on making the belt from this post. However, I still see no reason why it is wrong for someone to use Pat's idea and go out and make themselves their own belt.

Intellectual property is certainly a complicated and controversial area. An idea usually becomes monitarily quantifiable through a product that is based on it. If the product is easy to reproduce, then maybe the idea is not worth that much?

The wonder wedge is a great idea and a great product. A lot of research, or man hours, probably went into it. But lets face it, it's a piece of plastic and it's priced as such. If it's price were $100, would you buy it, or would you try and make one yourself?

If Wilson produced the AP Belt instead of someone who is an acquantance and maybe a friend to some people here, would everyone still have the same argument?

You're exactly right man hours of coding and designing software is the same idea as the man hours required to design and produce the AP Belt. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, the AP Belt didn't require the man hours that the price suggests it did.

As for your last paragraph, I've never worked on a retail product. My salary has always been based directly on my skill. If my employer can find someone to produce the same results for less money, you better believe they'll eventually replace me. And I wouldn't expect otherwise.

And I am not making accusations. Just stating my opinion. I've actually explicitly stated that I don't know Pat or the facts about his product to make such an accusation.

 

[vin]

Here's another thought on intellectual property. Books! They are probably the most common way of exchanging thoughts for profit. Think of all the new and creative thoughts that are shared through literature. Think of all the ideas you can learn from one book. A lot of hours go into writing a book, right? Sometimes even a lifetime of research. But what's the average cost of a book? Same goes for tennis videos.

If the exchange of new and revolutionary ideas were to always be an expensive one, this world would be significantly more boring and less innovative than it currently is.

If Pat were to produce a detailed document on the benefits of the AP Belt and how the specific components of the belt contribute, and sell it for the price of an average book, I'd gladly buy it. Until then, I think I have sufficiently explained myself, and you all may continue to consider me a thief of intellectual property if you'd like.

 

[takeuchi]

Ha this thread is pretty interesting. Seems like theres a lot of economics involved.

If the AP belt is patented then of course its gonna be fricken expensive so he can capture the value of his idea. So in a way it does kinda sound like an infomercial since you can't buy it anywhere else.

If something is priced higher than YOU value it, you won't buy it. If you could make it yourself at a lower cost then you are being more efficient. Do you pay a mechanic to fix your car when you have the knowledge to do so and can do it in an efficient and timely manner?

In this case Vin is doing it himself not really "pirating". Pirating software is more like stealing software, where in this case he is using the idea. Plus i think the time developing the idea is much much less than a software programmer takes to write a program. In a way there is some stealing of the idea, but theres not really an incentive to buy it when there are easier and more efficient ways to make one.

The difference between rackets and this AP belt would be that the racket isn't really patented and there are many substitutes to choose from. Also, I can't make a racket myself and if i could, it would be a piece of crap. This is where the real knowledge is and why i would pay for a racket with quite a markup. There are many racket companies competing for market share and if there were only one company that controlled the racket business, then prices would be even higher.

i don't really think products should be bought based on "heart" or support for the inventor. Seems kinda cheesy especially if he was deeply passionate about making people better at tennis, he'd sell it almost at cost.

Hope i don't step on any toes, this is the first responsive post i've probably ever written.

 

[eagle]

Hi,

Admittedly, the AP belt is not cheap. If a bit cheaper, I might buy it right away. Also, if I can try it for a week like a demo racquet, I might be more apt to buy it afterwards. Do they have some sort of money back guarantee if not satisfied with the product?

I don't think there's anything wrong with Vin going the DIY route and building his own. I don't know if the amount of training/feedback and benefits he gets from his version is the same as the AP's. If the same or better, then good for him. If not, then that's okay too. At least he has such a device that he can use to improve his game. Now if he builds a number of these to sell, then that's a different story altogether.

Folks who want the AP will buy it. Those who are DIY'ers will make their own. And those whose interest have been piqued will keep their eyes peeled on this thread.

r,
eagle

 

[vin]

Now if he builds a number of these to sell, then that's a different story altogether.

I never had any intentions of doing so. It would also be illegal based on the patent. I'm not interested in taking anyone elses money, just keeping my own.


FYI The belt is now $119 until Christmas.

 

[Andrrei]

Admittedly, the AP belt is not cheap.

I wander, why it is necessary to buy original AP belt.
It is very easy to do it yourself. I've bought bungee cord for $2,
I have wide leather belt already, I add two belts for for ankles
and thats it. Join everything together, actual cost for me - $2

 

[JohnYandell]

I agree with Eagle and there's nothing wrong with doing it yourself, don't get me wrong on that. And it's good Pat is giving a discount. I just felt we needed to respect his creative efforts, and value them a bit more. If you can afford the belt, then (again just my view) I think he deserves the support of the tennis community. To be honest, I think that being in the tennis business, you get sensitive to how difficult the economics of the industry really are. Let's face it, teaching can be a pretty hard way to earn a living--and the ancillary businesses, books, videos, and yes websites, can be tough as well--we all want to be valued for our contributions!