Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by AlpineCadet, Nov 2, 2007.
Not a stock K90...lol.
I think we're having semantic difficulties here. Instead of using the words "guilty" and "innocent", let's use "true" and "false". YES.....it is clear that Wilson falsly sold rackets that were used by Federer when they weren't (although there are some here who would even disagree with THAT claim too). But we do not judge "truth" based on previous statements. The truth or falsness of a statement is based on a specific statement. The statement in question is regarding the current racket - the K90. We cannot use previous statements to judge the "truth" or "falsness" on this specific question.
So where does that leave us? Yes, we can say that Wilson has not been honest in the past. But all that means is that those past statements were not true. Does that mean that Wilson has the propensity to lie.....yes. Does that mean that they necessarily ARE lying.....no. I use the word necessarily for a reason. Asking if anyone would "bet the mortgage" is missing the point. Those are probabilistic questions, not empirical ones. Asking the likelihood of something being true is different from asking if something is actually true. I think that the breakdown in communication about this issue is summed up by the lack of being able to make the aforementioned distinctions.
Is it likely that Wilson is lying? Sure, yeah.
Is Wilson ACTUALLY lying? We don't know. We need empirical evidence.
^^ This is the distinction that must be made.
Well said...are you a lawyer????
hehe, no. I'm working on my post-graduate degree in political science.
Nate is saying that Wilson sends Federer the same K90 as we can buy in the stores but that he then takes it and customizes it to Federer's exact liking (e.g, molds the exact grip size and shape Federer prefers, adds lead tape, etc.).
That was my assumption. I doubt Nate would share that information. He is making the majority of his income via Roger and a handfull of others on tour. Roger was his first big client--doubt he'd tarnish that friendship and trust for an interview.
that's my point. maybe they are telling the truth but odds are they are not. just because wilson issues a press release proclaiming something does not mean it is true. a press release is not irrefutable evidence as some here think.
Yes, identical as in from the same mold (although this is marketing speek), but that is about it. But you know that.
Not one of the racquets used by the pros are on sale to the public, they are all customized for each pro player. What we are buying is a racquet from a similar mold or PJ made to look like the pro version. Most rec players would hurt themselves with the actual pro version racquets. Do you really think Rafa is playing with an identical Cortex Aero Drive you can go out and buy???
They all have their equipment customized (not just racquets), just like the NASCAR drivers cars or Pro golfers clubs, it how they make their living.
Well, most of us rec players on here have customized sticks as well. Once you add lead or an overwrap, you have customized it. From threads in the past from stringers that strung Rafa's stick. There is just a little lead on a stock APD ....
Did Federer ever use the nCode Six-One Tour 90?
Through out the years you've been lead back and forth to believe whatever they tell you in the news. Yet each new day, you come up with something a little different because the fact remains that it's ultimately all just a guessing game.
Yes it does, because that means it's the industry norm.
If all the other car companies put sunroofs on their cars, you cannot fault Toyota for putting sunroofs in their cars, even if you didn't want one. It's what companies have to do to compete within their industries. Do you think tennis shoes companies really want to offer 6-month outsole warranties? No, they don't. They only do it to compete with the other shoe companies and so it has now become the industry norm.
It is "irrefutable" because no one has yet been able to disprove it.
I'm not sure why you continue to sing the same song over and over again as though you're trying to prove us wrong, when you have in fact said:
"Federer uses a K90 mold, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that the layup of his racquet is slightly tweaked to meet his specific specs for
flex, weight, balance, and weight distribution."
And since there really is no factual proof, you have also said:
"Although I think it's more likely that he uses a stock K90 that's just customized post production to meet his specific weight/balance specs."
There are different ways to interpret Wilson's statements, but it's all the same still. You have your opinions and I have mine, please lets just move on and discuss other things.
Adding lead or attaching a new handle is one thing, but BP is saying Federer's racquet might have different materials layup, flex and weight distribution. So he clearly believes that Federer's racquet might not be the K90 at all, or, in other words, he is saying Wilson could be lying about this.
I do NOT want this thread to become diluted, so please keep in mind what the OP asks.
Well stated. And, unfortunately, none of us will never know the real truth and discontinue the bantering that occurs and surrounds Roger and his stick. Most of us are not satisfied with Wilson's claim/statement. Until Nate, Roger himself, or someone else of that stature comes forth and states the truth, no one will ever be able to decisively state anything that will put the bantering and sabre rattling that is occuring within this and other threads.
You were spot on in your prediction of the arguments that would divulge within the thread. Good on 'ya!
<Mod Mode> I have just zapped *multiple* spamming and trolling posts from both sides of this "debate". (If you keep posting -- virtually -- the same post, I'm calling it "spam".) Please avoid the temptation to turn this thread into yet another Train Wreck. Thanks. </Mod Mode>
Yes, he did, except that his was not the same one as the nCode nSix-One Tour sold in the stores, which is why Wilson never made that claim about the nCode nSix-One Tour as they have about the K90.
That post was from 5/24/04, well before the K90 was introduced and even before the nCode 90 hit the stores:
Until the K90, Wilson never said their pros do not use paintjobs. Now they're saying Federer's K90 is not a paintjob. If it weren't true, why would they all of a sudden change their tune and open themselves up to all kinds of lawsuits when they were so careful in the past?
Fish and Tursunov aside, I'll stick to the thread title which is about Fed.
Just compare Fed's racquet with retail K90, do you see any visible physical differences? Please be honest on this one.
If no, then there is no empirical evidences that prove otherwise.
We can talk about layup all day but it is just speculation.
Yes, Fed did customise his racquets but the point Wilson is trying to say here is: Fed uses the retail k90 as the base racquet.
no, i haven't examined fed's racquet in minute detail. just because i haven't examined the racquet myself doesn't mean what wilson puts out in a press release is true. have you examined the racquet to have empirical evidence that he does use a retail k90?
all i'm saying is that there is a doubt that fed is using a real k90. he may in fact use a retail k90. who knows. but i choose not to put my faith in what a racquet co issues in a press release. especially with the racquet companies track record with pj's.
it's one thing to have an opinion that fed uses a retail k90. everyone is entitled their opinion. it's quite another to use a press release as your "irrefutable" evidence to back up your opinion that fed uses a retail k90.
maybe BP should have said "unrefuted" instead of "irrefutable"?
It's "irrefutable" in that this press release exists. Can you disprove that this press release exists? No? Then it is irrefutable that it exists and that this evidence does in fact exist. In contrast, there is zero evidence of any kind that Federer does not use a retail K90. The evidence does not even exist. Whereas, the press release that says he uses a retail K90 does exist. That makes it evidence - Exhibit A.
Again, show me another instance when Wilson, or any other racquet company, has publicly stated that the racquet one of their sponsored pros uses is the same exact one that's sold in the stores. If it weren't true, why then did Wilson NOT say the same thing about Tursunov's racquet nor Fish's racquet nor Serena's racquet nor Venus' racquet nor the Bryan brothers racquets nor Bjorkman's racquet nor Canas' racquet nor Djokovic's racquet nor Mathieu's racquet nor Ivanovic's racquet nor Henin's racquet nor Kiefer's racquet nor Mirnyi's racquet nor Davenport's racquet, etc., etc. Why not just make it easy on themselves and issue a press release that says every Wilson sponsored pro uses the same racquet model as the one sold in the stores? Why single out the K90? I mean if they're going to make something up, why not just cover all of their pros and be done with it?
When you are the general public, its more cost effective for racquet companies to make everything out of the same mold. Afterwards, you can customize your racquet at will with lead tape, grips, string, and other minor customizations.
When you are a professional player, you get the racquet that best fits your game. Logically speaking, it would not be cost effective for Wilson to produce thousands of unique racquets specifically for Federer. He uses up enough racquets purchased by probably that many people. This is the reason why I believe he does get the specific retail KFactor racquet, but then customizes it to his liking by Nate so it 1. Fits his preferences specifically and 2. Puts the tab to him, so Wilson doesn't lose money.
I'm pretty sure that exact mold you're talking about has been around since 2001 when we first saw RF using his specific racket. The layup is probably just different, with less fillers and the whatnots.. so that he gets exactly what he wants out of his frames.
Some people would say he is 'NOT using the retail k90 as the base' for his frames, while suggesting that he actually uses the PS 6.0 85 composite (which is known to have incredible ball feel because of the 17mm beam thickness) for his frames instead.
By the way, I am also venturing to say that his frames are also 17mm (like the PS 6.0 85, and not 17.5/18mm like the retail Tour 90s.
"Some people"? I think you're the ONLY one here suggesting that Federer's K90 uses the "PS 6.0 85 composite". That's nothing but unfounded speculation and I've seen nothing at all to convince me that could be even remotely true.
BTW, the retail PS Tour 90 and the retail nCode nSix-One 90 BOTH have 17mm beams, exactly like the PS 6.0 85. The K90 may measure 18mm due to the thick plastic-like coating that's on the K90, but all 3 come out of the same mold so all 3 are 17mm thick, just like the PS 6.0 85 and just like Federer's K90 (as you claimed).
I've actually measured my K90 and nCode 90 and they are the same thickness: 17mm.
The small 85 sq. in. head adds to the PS 6.0 85's ball feel but the K90 also has great ball feel. The smaller the head, the more ball feel you get because the frame is closer to the point of ball impact and your hand is holding the frame. This is another reason why I don't like OS racquets. If you want really incredible ball feel you should switch to a 65 sq. in. wood racquet. They blow the PS 6.0 85 away as far as feel goes.
Yes, that may be true but most pros are doing a lot more than a little lead on their racquets. Custom weighting, balance, stiffnes, flex, etc. are all part of the game. Some pros get their racquet injected with various materials to customize. Babolat advertizes Rafa stick as the APD wCortex, but Rafa uses the standard APD with lead under the grommets and a Cortex PJ.
With regards to Feds racquet I believe that Greg Raven posted pictures of Feds racquet that shows it's customed drilled for a different string pattern. Point is that the racquets sold to the public are not the racquets the pros use in general.This is nothing new and has been going on for a long time.
so you've gone from the information in the press release is irrefutable to now that the press release is irrefutable. well of course a press release is irrefutable. it's the info written in the press release that is not irrefutable. funny how you have changed your tune and are trying to deflect (once again)
Arguments about Federer's real racquet has been going on for a long time too
probably a better choice
Which is why many believe Federer uses a retail K90 because the retail K90 is custom drilled to Federer's string pattern (4 crosses at the PWS) just like the one he uses.
The racquet Greg Raven tested was the nCode 90, NOT the K90. The retail nCode 90 had a different string pattern (5 crosses at the PWS). BTW, Greg's playtesters also found very few differences during their playtest of Federer's nCode 90 versus the retail nCode 90.
Looks like you need to get up to speed on all of this.
why is the k6.1 tour different from all the new kfactor rackets?
it looks old school to me..
the composition is almost the same as the old pro staff...
maybe it is made based upon feds request to wilson???
just my opinion...
and why just dont wilson sell the actual racket that fed is using??
the retailed k90 doesnt look kfactorish after all
You might notice the n90 looked different to the other nCoded racquets.
the mystical roger federer racket thing
I'm afraid I don't understand your logic.
your man, gimmie, took the 1st set of petie in beaumont, btw it was freezing in there due that it was a hockey rink. I am completely shocked. I know he doesn't have the requirements but are they going to be allowed to play the champions tour?
Can anyone confirm if the PS 6.0 85 is 16.5mm-17mm, while the N90/k90 are 17.5mm-18mm?
Here you go. Both are 17mm.
I think you left out the retail specs of the K90 that you claim RF is using.
A retail Pro Staff Tour 90 is thinner than the retail nCode six-one Tour 90, yet TW says they're both 17mm. While the k90 is the thickest of them all (18mm.) Go figure, huh?
That's the point. The Original ProStaff was such a great racquet and has such a huge customer base, Wilson would be dumb to deviate from that winning formula. Thus, they will continue to make new versions of the PS 6.0 Original, the latest of which is the K90.
To me, the PS 6.0/PS Tour 90/nCode 90/K90 is the only racquet that matters in the Wilson product line. The rest can just be like any other racquets from any other company. They are all just modern racquets and they are all pretty much the same. The K90 is unique and is in a category of its own. :-D
Here you go:
From the Wilson website:
[K] Six.One Tour
Unmatched [K]ontrol and feel, period. Choice of the world's #1 player, Roger Federer. The integration of [K]arophite Black elevates the [K] Six.One Tour as the new benchmark of precision to take [K]ontrol to the next level. SPECS
Strung Weight: 12.5 oz.
String Pattern: 16 x 19
Strung Balance: 9 pts. HL
Cross Section: 17 mm Flat Beam
Grip Sizes: 2 - 5
Stock Number: T7861U
Even more specific: http://media.wilson.com/media/wilson/racquet/pdf/tennis/K_Six_One_Tour_spec_360e1.pdf
Si: 6 (Fast and Long)
Head size: 90 in 2
Length: 27 in
Weight (unstrung/strung): 12.0 oz. (340 g) / 12.5 oz. (355 g)
Balance (unstrung/strung): 12 pts. HL (30.5 cm) / 9 pts. HL (31.5 cm)
Grip size: 4-1/4 – 4-5/8
Composition: 80% Karophite Black / 20% Kevlar
17.0 mm Flat Beam®
17.0 mm (tip)
17.0 mm (shoulder)
17.0 mm (handle)
Rec. string: Champion’s Choice (Z9978)
Rec. grip: Leather (Z4840)
Bumper & grommets: G7861
Pattern: 16 x 19
Tension: 50 - 60 lbs.
String length: 34' (ss: 9'6") or (18' M’s & 16' X’s)
Start M’s: At throat. Mains skip 7T, 9T, 7H & 9H.
Tie off M’s at 6T.
If one-piece stringing: Start X’s at top at 7T.
Tie off X’s at 5H.
If two-piece stringing: Start X’s at top at 7H.
Tie off X’s at 5H & 11T.
Stock # UPC Codes:
T7861U 2: 0-26388-25371-5
T7861U 3: 0-26388-25372-2
T7861U 4: 0-26388-25373-9
T7861U 5: 0-26388-25374-6
[K]AROPHITE BLACK / [K]OMPACT CENTER
Unmatched [K] ontrol and feel, period. Choice of the World’s #1 player, Roger Federer.
The integration of [K] arophite Black elevates the [K] Six-One Tour as the new benchmark
of precision to take [K] ontrol to the next level.
#1 in Tennis
Thus, the K90 is also 17mm. TW must have gotten a new caliper recently. :-o
This statement is still true, even if you quote places other than TW.
Some actual measurements with pictures of the following
Measurements were taken at the throat and also at the PWS.
The following racquets were measured:
1 PS85 St. Vincent
1 PS85 w/tour 90 paintjob
1 PS85 w/classic paintjob
2 PS85 China
The K90, St. Vincent, PS85 w/tour90 PJ, & PS 85 w/classic PJ
were all about 18mm.
The 2 china PS85's were a little more than 17mm.
All 3 come out of the same mold so they are all the same thickness. Any differences in measured thickness only has to do with the thickness of each individual paintjob. The PS Tour 90 uses a thin matte paint, whereas, the K90 has a thick "plastic-like sheath" over it.
Thanks for the measurements and for the pics.
The PS85 China1 and PS85 w/ 6.1 Classic PJ appear to be the same thickness at the throat from your pics ~17.5mm.
The St. Vincent PS85 appears to be the thickest one of them all - a hair over 18mm at the throat. :-o
AlpineCadet, you have rock solid reasoning skills: In order to meet Federer’s requirements, plus successfully market the Pro Staff Tour 90, Wilson modified a Pro Staff 6.0 85 mold to include the tapered flanges on the throat, increased the head size to 90 sq.in., and made slight modifications to the PWS shape in order to make it look like a Tour 90 to the untrained eye.
After all that you still call the racquet PS85????
i always heard he used a painted hyper pro staff flat beam 6.0 european racket. there is one on e bay now also saying he uses it.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. And FYI, I never called his actual racket a 'PS85.' It may have the PS85 composite, and feel/play totally different than the Karophite junk in the K90's, but I have never called it that same name.
Venetian: What I don't understand is why anyone would believe he does use a stock racquet. He has Wilson's Pro Room at his disposal just like every other touring pro. Why would he not be using it?
When RF was asked in 2007 what he was doing during a weeklong rain out at wimbledon he said: playing cards with my g/f, watching movies, nothing related to tennis. So he was not designing a new raquet for sure.
If you really attempt to analyze his game you'll reach the conclusion that he's much better than all the rest on tour in reading opponents' shots and notice that he put so much less energy relative to nadal/djoko/riddick in each point because of his superior ball anticipation. Now go on court and reflect on the impact correct ball anticipation has on your game. Then you'd probably stop talking about racquet shapes/paints/molds/layups and come to the conclusion it is much more about being ready to meet the ball when still coming at you than chasing it down the line and hoping that you can produce the almost impossible.
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