Four Canada titles, One Cincinnati title, 3 US Open titles -Rafa v Novak who is the greater champion in the NA HC summer?

[Deleted member 77403]

I am frustrated by the fact that in the years that nadal seems to dominate hard courts(except 2013) someone or the other appears with a better form and defeats him in the finals. Really frustrating.
Happened in 2011 where nadal was would have won miami and IW if not for Djoko. Same thing happened in 2017 where he could have easily swept AO,IW,Miami as well as Shanghai if not for Federer. Even in 2014 when he was looking unstoppable in AO he was defeated by stan after which he somewhat lost his confidence.

Well, think of it like this. It took the two greatest HC players of all time to stop Nadal, the same way it took the greatest clay court player to stop Federer and Djokovic more often than not at RG. This is kind of what happens when you have such a golden period where you have so many iconic alpha players competing head on for the biggest prizes in the game. The AO 2014 match happened under extraordinary conditions, the perfect storm of a well playing Stanimal who had gained super confidence by beating Djokovic earlier, and Nadal getting so tense at being the overwhelming favorite that he went and hurt his back.

 

[Deleted member 743545]

Absolutely agree. Yes, Nadal had a wonderful year in 2013, but to me it wasn't a peak year for him, he won a couple of very close matches that could have gone the other way and which would have impacted his season a lot, the Del Potro IW final, the RG semi and Canada semi. He was still in prime form to win these matches yes, but overall I felt wasn't in peak form. His 2010 USO form and his AO 2009 form for me were superior to what he did in USO 2013, his IW 2007 form was better than his IW 2013 form also IMO. And you are right, he was pushed very hard by Ferrer multiple times on the clay also, again matches he could have lost, so it was not that he was on the brink only on HC, it was on clay a couple of times too.

The back injury Nadal got in the final at AO 2014 pretty much made sure his prime was done, he dropped like a stone after that, losing early at IW for the first time since doing nothing less than a semi from 2006 onward there, getting manhandled by Nishikori in Madrid final - he was very lucky that was he wasn't heading into RG with zero clay masters wins under his belt. His RG 2014 win for me is post prime and that is to his credit.

That was the main diferrences between prime and post-prime Rafa IMO. The situation basically reversed in 2015 when he lost many close matches that could make his season much better: Fognini in Rio/Us 2015. Raonic IW, Wawrinka Rome/Paris, Dolgopolov in Queen, that were the matches that Prime Nadal would probably manage to close it out.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

That was the main diferrences between prime and post-prime Rafa IMO. The situation basically reversed in 2015 when he lost many close matches that could make his season much better: Fognini in Rio/Us 2015. Raonic IW, Wawrinka Rome/Paris, Dolgopolov in Queen, that were the matches that Prime Nadal would probably manage to close it out.

Exactly, you can see the difference. 2015 Nadal was losing those tight matches more often than not, while 2013 managed to clutch them out. It was only a matter of time before those close wins started to turn into close loses, hence why I don't count 2013 as part of Nadal's peak, but the back end of his prime. Nadal having a four year peak period sits nicely with the four year peak period that Federer had and five year period that Djokovic had.

 

[upchuck]

Yes. Djokovic is still in his competitive prime, even though his athletic prime is not at his full best.

This is by no means certain. I haven't seen any decline in Djokovic's athletic abilities.

 

[Incognito]

Only majors matter.

Djokovic is ahead, way more finals at the USO than Rafa.

AO - Fed is GOAT. More finals than Djokovic.

Wimbledon - Fed is GOAT again. Indisputable. Novak is second in this era.

RG - Rafa is GOAT. Indisputable. In this era Fed is second, he has more finals than Novak.

 

[Deleted member 763691]

^ do you really think Federer would beat prime Sampras at Wimbledon?
even Sampras' backhand was majestic at Wimbledon.

 

[Incognito]

This is by no means certain. I haven't seen any decline in Djokovic's athletic abilities.

This is what I find truly incredible. Also, it wasn’t like he was a weakling in his early years. He outlasted doping Canas in that IW finals in 2007 in extreme heat. He barely broke sweat when he won AO in 2008. Djokovic has been a steady force throughout his long career. His stamina has always been on point.

 

[upchuck]

This is what I find truly incredible. Also, it wasn’t like he was a weakling in his early years. He outlasted doping Canas in that IW finals in 2007 in extreme heat. He barely broke sweat when he won AO in 2008. Djokovic has been a steady force throughout his long career. His stamina has always been on point.

His elbow injury has distracted from the fact that no top player this century has done a better job at physical conditioning, not even Federer who is usually held as an example of that.

I watched his Abu Dhabi matches and it was clear, Djokovic is as quick/moves as well as he ever has. There has been no physical deterioration.

 

[DSH]

Only majors matter.

Djokovic is ahead, way more finals at the USO than Rafa.

AO - Fed is GOAT. More finals than Djokovic.

Wimbledon - Fed is GOAT again. Indisputable. Novak is second in this era.

RG - Rafa is GOAT. Indisputable. In this era Fed is second, he has more finals than Novak.

Agree at RG and Wimbledon.
At the AO Fed is better than Djokovic but by slim marge, at the US Open is is very even between Connors, Sampras and Federer; in both cases talking only about Open Era.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

This is what I find truly incredible. Also, it wasn’t like he was a weakling in his early years. He outlasted doping Canas in that IW finals in 2007 in extreme heat. He barely broke sweat when he won AO in 2008. Djokovic has been a steady force throughout his long career. His stamina has always been on point.

I think you mean Miami 2007 finals.

IW 2007 finals, Nadal schooled Djokovic, who was playing his first big final.

 

[JoelSandwich]

Overall I’d give it to Djokovic for his greater consistency but peak for peak Nadal would be a handful aside from Montreal imo
Montreal: Novak 2007/2011 were more impressive than any of Nadals runs however Nadal was very good in 2005 and 2013
Cincinnati: Djokovic has the edge in finals and H2H but Nadal 2013 would be a handful for any version of Djokovic here
USO: Flip a coin between 2010 and 2011 but I tend to go with 2010 because I think Djokovic played better in 2010 than Nadal in 2011 but Djokovic was also a beast that year so idk

 

[BGod]

It's quite clearly Djokovic. Like, why is this even discussed unless we're talking primes. But for most accomplished? It is absolutely Novak without question.

Firstly, same number of titles at every event right? Well....

USO-Novak 4 additional Finals.
Cincinnati-Novak 5 additional Finals.
Canada-Novak 1 additional Final.

I mean, that's 10 additional Final runs. What are we even talking about? Then I can bring up the pitiful draws of some Nadal victories in these events, USO 2017, Canada 2008, 2018 while his 2 other Canadian titles came with 1 good win, against Novak in 2013 and Agassi in 2005, look them up. He beat John Isner in a tight Final for his 1 Cincy title in his 1 Final. Common now I'm done.

 

[BGod]

Montreal: Novak 2007/2011 were more impressive than any of Nadals runs however Nadal was very good in 2005 and 2013
Cincinnati: Djokovic has the edge in finals and H2H but Nadal 2013 would be a handful for any version of Djokovic here

2005: Mello, Grosjean (30s), Puerta, Mathieu, Agassi
2013 Canada: Levine, Janowicz, Matosevic, Djokovic, Raonic (13s)
2013 Cincinnati: Benjamin Becker, Dimitrov, Federer, Berdych, Isner

You spot 1 big name in each of those but I will say his 2013 Cincy run needs to be understood with regards to Federer. This was Roger's worst year, literally his worst since 2003 up until now. It was still 3 sets as was the Dimitrov match. The Berdych match was 7-5, 7-6 and the Isner match was 7-6, 7-6.

Pure myth, these 3 runs were pedestrian by Nadal's standards.

Novak's 2007 run in Canada at age 20 is better than any of Nadal's Masters runs on the two events.

 

[JoelSandwich]

2005: Mello, Grosjean (30s), Puerta, Mathieu, Agassi
2013 Canada: Levine, Janowicz, Matosevic, Djokovic, Raonic (13s)
2013 Cincinnati: Benjamin Becker, Dimitrov, Federer, Berdych, Isner

You spot 1 big name in each of those but I will say his 2013 Cincy run needs to be understood with regards to Federer. This was Roger's worst year, literally his worst since 2003 up until now. It was still 3 sets as was the Dimitrov match. The Berdych match was 7-5, 7-6 and the Isner match was 7-6, 7-6.

Pure myth, these 3 runs were pedestrian by Nadal's standards.

Novak's 2007 run in Canada at age 20 is better than any of Nadal's Masters runs on the two events.

I agree with your last point and I do think Djokovic beats Nadal peak for peak in Montreal I’m just saying it wouldn’t be easy
And yes Federer was terrible in 2013 but Djokovic has never been that great in the final rounds of Cincinnati even though he played Federer a lot
2008 he losses to Murray, 2009, 2012, 2015 loses quite handily to Fed, 2011 (injury) but was down a set
He did win in 2018 but he struggled in almost every round and Federer was god awful
Djokovic has been more consistent than Nadal at Cincinnati but he also has never really been all that impressive there
Got thoroughly outplayed in almost every final he played

 

[helterskelter]

2010 was probably his worst year between 2007-2016 IMO.

Yes, overall, but in slams better than 2009: QF-QF-SF-F v QF-R3-QF-SF. He equaled or bettered his 2009 performance at every slams in 2010. In slams, 2007 is more or less equal to 2010: one final, two semis, one R4 v one final, one semi, two quarters.

 

[Backspin1183]

It's quite clearly Djokovic. Like, why is this even discussed unless we're talking primes. But for most accomplished? It is absolutely Novak without question.

Firstly, same number of titles at every event right? Well....

USO-Novak 4 additional Finals.
Cincinnati-Novak 5 additional Finals.
Canada-Novak 1 additional Final.

I mean, that's 10 additional Final runs. What are we even talking about? Then I can bring up the pitiful draws of some Nadal victories in these events, USO 2017, Canada 2008, 2018 while his 2 other Canadian titles came with 1 good win, against Novak in 2013 and Agassi in 2005, look them up. He beat John Isner in a tight Final for his 1 Cincy title in his 1 Final. Common now I'm done.

John Isner player the best tennis of his career in 2012-2013. Best Djokovic in the quarter finals and lost the final in 2 competitive sets to a seemingly unstoppable Nadal.