Frame Compression from stringing

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
1/8" is not much at all but frames do get deformed while stringing especially when there is a big difference between the main cross tension. One way to solve a lot of that is to use the Stringway online tension advisor.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
1/8" is not much at all but frames do get deformed while stringing especially when there is a big difference between the main cross tension. One way to solve a lot of that is to use the Stringway online tension advisor.
While I agree it happens, but if you read the MRT types on these forums, they would be required to redo the racquet with ANY kind of deformation. How can that kind of deformation happen on the pro tour especially when the tension is the same on mains and crosses?

Shouldnt they have restrung the racquet?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
While I agree it happens, but if you read the MRT types on these forums, they would be required to redo the racquet with ANY kind of deformation. How can that kind of deformation happen on the pro tour especially when the tension is the same on mains and crosses?

Shouldnt they have restrung the racquet?
It could be the racket was 1/8” short because it started that way. It could be that what nasal wanted also.
 

2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
Crosses going in tighten the mains as well. So there just isn't an equal counter to that 1st main load.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Like who? I’m with @Herb...
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/eliminating-racket-deformation-hybrids-and-two-piece-stringing.547844/#post-9776847

Its the bible man.

There are many more posts here where sentiment is the same.

And maybe there is a distinction between pro and tour?? Like no way I can walk into the pro shop and say "please string it at 86/66 with kev poly". No stringer would "just string the way the player wants, and not worry about hoop compression."
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
When you referred to “pro tour” and “pro stringers” I thought you were taking about stringers who string for touring professionals. In which case, I stand by my comment - I can’t imagine those guys and gals being paranoid about frame deformation.

If you’re bringing retail and hobby stringers into the mix, along with recreational tennis players...that’s an entirely different animal, IMHO.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
When you referred to “pro tour” and “pro stringers” I thought you were taking about stringers who string for touring professionals. In which case, I stand by my comment - I can’t imagine those guys and gals being paranoid about frame deformation.

If you’re bringing retail and hobby stringers into the mix, along with recreational tennis players...that’s an entirely different animal, IMHO.
You were right. I did mean pro tour stringers in that that is where the evidence of distortion came from. But there IS a sentiment here that frame distortion is bad and specifically a sign of a bad string job. Like the kind you have to redo. @USPTARF97 notably has a big issue with frame distortion and IMHO so do the usual suspects here. I wonder if @Rabbit @jim e @Irvin etc. are paranoid about deformation and would start over. So when I saw that it was happening on the PRO tour, it made me wonder.

Now I hear its nothing to worry about. Which I already knew...
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
@Shroud sorry if I misled you but I’m not paranoid about frame distortion. If a frame come out with distortion strung to what the customer wanted if it perfectly fine with me. There was someone on here that had a frame that was compressed 1/2” using a white Wilson racket Stephanie Graffiti using to play with. He even came to my home and used my machine to string his same with the same result. That bothered him. He ended up using the Stringway TA and it resolved his problem.

I would think if you strung the mains on any racket at 86 and crosses at 50 you would deform the racket. If that tension difference is what the customer wants that’s fine.
 

1HBHfanatic

Hall of Fame
I would say that most pro stringers just string the way the player wants, and do not worry about hoop compression.
I like this statement best!!

@Shroud
like mentioned, pro stringers and people who care/know, would worry more about "equal pressure", on both left/right sides of the frame and eventually top/down stringing, best practices
as you know, uneven preassure can cause a bad outcome to a string job, both in feel and frame "deformation",
the hoop compression can be managed/mitigated/enhanced by the tension chosen from the start "by the client",,
your tension differences always freak me out, (not gonna lie), but i would string "your racquet", at the tension you specified (even " 86/66 with kev poly), but i would note my disclaimer at time of request!!
 

Herb

Semi-Pro
Not saying it doesn't happen, but I have never seen someone pull out a tape measure and measure a racquet after stringing. At any level of stringing from beginner to stringing room at a pro tournament I have never seen it.
 
I'm an "MRT type" and I don't worry about frame distortion. I mount the racquet correctly, string it, and don't give it a second thought. I learned my lesson over 25 years ago when I didn't tighten one of the mounting posts, and turned the head of a Prince CTS Storm into a perfect circle. Never made that mistake again.
 

grhcan99

Semi-Pro
At the start I worried about this too. My experience after stringing so many racquets now is that some racquets will compress some won't. I have a pair of Bubba 137's that a friend gave me recently. With same strings and tensions one compresses the other doesn't. I think it comes down to QC. For the same model some were done properly some weren't. Until racquet manufacturing is fully automated I think there will always be variances.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Never has 2 similar racket compress differently with the same string and tension. I strung 3 wilson clashes Monday and all were the same length before stringing. After stringing one I compared it to the other 2 unstrung and all were the same. After stringing all 3 they were all the same length.
 
In general, racquets with larger head size, especially those with wider (rounder) shape, will compress (shorten) more when you pop them off the stringer.
 
The only time I complained as a customer was 25 years ago when I picked up my Profile 2.7 110” from the stringer, supposedly strung with Problend at 78 lbs, and the frame was noticeably lengthened by almost 1/2”. I have no idea how he managed to do that.
 

grhcan99

Semi-Pro
Never has 2 similar racket compress differently with the same string and tension. I strung 3 wilson clashes Monday and all were the same length before stringing. After stringing one I compared it to the other 2 unstrung and all were the same. After stringing all 3 they were all the same length.
Mine did. Just sharing my experience on these two racquets.
 

1HBHfanatic

Hall of Fame
The only time I complained as a customer was 25 years ago when I picked up my Profile 2.7 110” from the stringer, supposedly strung with Problend at 78 lbs, and the frame was noticeably lengthened by almost 1/2”. I have no idea how he managed to do that.
stringing crosses from bottom to top can cause this as well
pressure just build up more and more as he went up, and stretched the frame..
is 78lbs outside the recommended tension range for that racquet??
 

1HBHfanatic

Hall of Fame
In general, racquets with larger head size, especially those with wider (rounder) shape, will compress (shorten) more when you pop them off the stringer.
agree here
several rackets will not have enough material in the frame to take the stress from stringing as well as others
some of the head instinct racquets do this to me often
paying closer attention to the tensions from mains/crosses would minimize the stress
but as many have said, if that's what the "federrer", wants, that's what "federrer", gets!! :)
 

Technatic

Semi-Pro
How is that possible on the pro tour? Most pro stringers wig out at the thought.
I would like to add my 2 cts to this matter because I was fascinated by this question also.

I think that there are 3 reasons which make it possible for pro-stringers to ignore the need to string mains and crosses at different tensions:

- Many pro- players tell the stringers at what tensions they want there racquets to be strung. The choice of the player is often based on the playability experience of they have.

- Pros seldom play with racquets with extreme shapes or extreme string patterns (like 18x16) which need big differences in tensions for mains and crosses.

- Racquets are so strong and stiff and the tensions are so much lower nowadays, that stringers are seldom “punished” by broken frames caused by stringing faults.

Btw:

Because racquets are so stiff I think 3 mm difference in length before and after stringing is the maximum that is allowed.
 
Why does nadal want his crosses ran from the bottom to top ??
I remember seeing Babolat stringing instruction, graph with arrows, showing bottom up sequence. I followed that on my PureStrike 18x20 when I did one piece.

I think top to bottom is a convention that got passed down. It is thought that the racket is less stressed and less likely to break by stringing top-down. But not sure if it is still relevant nowadays, since even manufactures specified bottom-up. Generally, there are few research about stringing practices. I read somewhere that a certain ATW, 1 pcs gives better tension stability somewhere.
 

jim e

Legend
Many of the manufacturer patterns that list 1 piece bottom up, also list for 2 piece to string it top down as racquet is stronger at throat end with the extra bracing of throat section.
All my string jobs I string top down.
There is a local stringer in my area that strings them bottom up, and said he never broke one yet. Myself, I feel better stringing top down, as I really don't want to chance stringing someone else's racquet and have an issue. Especially with many racquets I get to string are getting on in years and use and abuse, so stringing bottom up may one time just do in a racquet, but that will not be me for stringing bottom up.
 

esgee48

Legend
If doing 1 piece, I will almost always do crosses top to bottom, if needed using an ATW. Only exceptions are if client asked for bottom to top or it is a Big Box frame that can only be strung that way. That's after seeing if it can be done with an ATW and saying to myself, No.

Regarding comment about compression, my (achievable) goal is 0 mm compression if using a 1 piece and mains/crosses at same ref tension. With older Head frames I will tolerate ±2-3 mm if there is a differential.
 
Let us be clear about this. Are we concern about some reformation in length only or length and width?
My guess is most don't bother measuring it/them. I often measure my sticks before n after strung. Even using tension advisor, my best outcome is having pretty even reduction in L n W. Thus I expect a little deformation on both. I do not worry about the deformation so far.
 

Technatic

Semi-Pro
Because racquets are so stiff I think 3 mm difference in length before and after stringing is the maximum that is allowed.

@Technatic Fred, Why?
The stiffer the racquet the more force is needed to create a certain deformation. The racquet gets damaged when the force per square mm in the racquet material is too high.

So when a flexible racquet head is deformed 3 mm there is less force in the racquet than when a stiff racquet is deformed 3mm.

Good thing is that modern racquets are much stronger, so the acceptable stress (kg/mm^2) is much higher.

But less deformation is always better than more.

So a stringer who wants to be “perfect”:

- Has to choose the stringing tension so that he gets as little deformation as possible.

- Has to measure the deformation of the racquet after stringing as accurate as possible , a tape measure is not accurate enough.
 

Karma Tennis

Hall of Fame
Excuse my ignorance ... Don't most tennis racquets deform a lot more during ball impact than they ever would on a stringing machine? And given that is happening repeatedly during a hitting session or tennis match, isn't any risk of racquet damage greater there? (Especially when stiff strings or high string bed tensions are involved)
 
I find that Head Radicals (especially the OS versions) deform more than most rackets. If a person doesn't really know what they want the racket strung with, I'll often recommend stringing the crosses 5# tighter than the mains, which usually solves the problem of deformation.
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
So a stringer who wants to be “perfect”:

- Has to choose the stringing tension so that he gets as little deformation as possible.

- Has to measure the deformation of the racquet after stringing as accurate as possible , a tape measure is not accurate enough.
See, I wouldn’t call that perfect. I’d be more inclined to call it paranoid.

Is there some due diligence to prevent damaging frames? Absolutely. But it’s not like we’re building nuclear bombs here. We’re stringing tennis racquets.
 

1HBHfanatic

Hall of Fame
I find that Head Radicals (especially the OS versions) deform more than most rackets. If a person doesn't really know what they want the racket strung with, I'll often recommend stringing the crosses 5# tighter than the mains, which usually solves the problem of deformation.
yeah, I agree, def. some racquets flex more than others
as for the cross tension though, i tend to go lower, specially if its a yonex frame
but cross tension is different for different situations,,
 

Technatic

Semi-Pro
Don't most tennis racquets deform a lot more during ball impact than they ever would on a stringing machine? And given that is happening repeatedly during a hitting session or tennis match, isn't any risk of racquet damage greater there?

I do not think so.

The most dangerous situation for the racquet is when all the mains are tensioned, creating a total force of 800 to 1000 lbs in one direction depending on the number of strings and the tension.

The first stringing machines were designed only to protect the racquet in this situation.

The force on the string bed on impact is divided over all the mains and crosses so works in both directions and so for the racquet that feels very much in balance.

See, I wouldn’t call that perfect. I’d be more inclined to call it paranoid.
It looks like you did not string in the 80’s when racquets deformed much more and broke on the machine (Prince Extenders) when you chose the wrong way of stringing or wrong tensions.

And you probably do not string size 110 racquets on 72 lbs either?

So a stringer can make a lot of mistakes without any risk nowadays with the much stronger modern racquets.

But IMO a craftsman who does not pay attention to the details is not a craftsman at all :censored:
 
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Technatic

Semi-Pro
But IMO a craftsman who does not pay attention to the details is not a craftsman at all
See, I wouldn’t call that perfect. I’d be more inclined to call it paranoid.

If we would produce stringing machines with this attitude the quality, the features and durability would certainly be much less……………….I think.
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
@Technatic :rolleyes:

Then why do we not see stringers in pro tournament stringing rooms obsessively measuring racquet lengths, before and after stringing? Are they not craftsman, either?

It looks like you did not string in the 80’s when racquets deformed much more and broke on the machine (Prince Extenders) when you chose the wrong way of stringing or wrong tensions.

And you probably do not string size 110 racquets on 72 lbs either?

So a stringer can make a lot of mistakes without any risk nowadays with the much stronger modern racquets.

But IMO a craftsman who does not pay attention to the details is not a craftsman at all :censored:
Typical. I guess another obnoxious, elitist reply from you shouldn’t surprise me. As Socrates said, “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”

Just for the record, I’ll be the first one to admit that I’m not the most experienced guy out there. I’m not too full of myself to be able to admit when I’m wrong (a concept that is apparently foreign to you) - and have done so countless times on this forum. But I do run a successful stringing business out of my home, and I also string retail at one of the premier tennis clubs in US. I also strung a bit for a futures tournament this year. I was trained by a certified MRT, who strung at the US Open back in the 80’s and 90’s. So, I don’t think I’m exactly the village idiot you keep trying to suggest I am.

And let’s be clear. You’re the one putting yourself out there as some kind of know-it-all expert, not me. It’s not me who owns my own stringing machine manufacturing business, whilst I disparage my competition on an open Internet forum.

If I may make a suggestion, if you are indeed the self-proclaimed stringing expert that you claim to be...maybe you should apply some of your expert knowledge and infinite wisdom to business ethics and PR.
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
And you probably do not string size 110 racquets on 72 lbs either?
Just to make an example of one of your assertions:

How would you know or even suspect that I wouldn’t have done this? You’ve made an assertion with basically zero fact - only a perception of who you think I am, based upon what I have said. It’s choices like these that you make which, IMHO, calls into question other (perhaps more important) assertions you make.

So, I know this may come as a shock to you, but I have a client who played for Princeton back in the 80’s. He still plays with the same frames he did then - an 80’s era, oversized Prince frame. I’ve strung his racquets over 70lbs repeatedly.

I also strung a 90’s era oversized Yonex frame for Seles a few years ago. The requested tension was 69lbs.
 

am1899

Hall of Fame
I find that Head Radicals (especially the OS versions) deform more than most rackets. If a person doesn't really know what they want the racket strung with, I'll often recommend stringing the crosses 5# tighter than the mains, which usually solves the problem of deformation.
Back to the discussion at hand, I would agree @Steve Huff - those older Radicals are quite demonstrative whilst being strung - especially the oversized variety.
 

Technatic

Semi-Pro
Then why do we not see stringers in pro tournament stringing rooms obsessively measuring racquet lengths, before and after stringing? Are they not craftsman, either?
I think that this earlier answer counts for this question also:

There are 3 reasons which make it possible for pro-stringers to ignore the need to string mains and crosses at different tensions:

- Many pro- players tell the stringers at what tensions they want there racquets to be strung. The choice of the player is often based on the playability experience of they have.

- Pros seldom play with racquets with extreme shapes or extreme string patterns (like 18x16) which need big differences in tensions for mains and crosses.

- Racquets are so strong and stiff and the tensions are so much lower nowadays, that stringers are seldom “punished” by broken frames caused by stringing faults.
 

1HBHfanatic

Hall of Fame
Excuse my ignorance ... Don't most tennis racquets deform a lot more during ball impact than they ever would on a stringing machine? And given that is happening repeatedly during a hitting session or tennis match, isn't any risk of racquet damage greater there? (Especially when stiff strings or high string bed tensions are involved)
I think your visualizing the "flexing"/"twisting", of the racquet at impact?!?
ive seen the videos of this, where the racquet seems to flex severly at impact
the good thing at that speed is that the strings from both the mains and crosses, spring the racquet back into original shape
i guess the real concern is to make sure the racquet can flex back to a normal state like it was designed to be in
if the stringer compresses the racquet in a way that it was not "normal", than the impact would definitely make it flex in a way that would make matters worse..
 

Karma Tennis

Hall of Fame
I think your visualizing the "flexing"/"twisting", of the racquet at impact?!?
ive seen the videos of this, where the racquet seems to flex severly at impact
the good thing at that speed is that the strings from both the mains and crosses, spring the racquet back into original shape
i guess the real concern is to make sure the racquet can flex back to a normal state like it was designed to be in
if the stringer compresses the racquet in a way that it was not "normal", than the impact would definitely make it flex in a way that would make matters worse..
Indeed I am.

Most of those videos are of Pro Players who are hitting a lot of hours. Many of them have the luxury of access to many many tennis racquets throughout the course of the season. So perhaps they are not affected by the longer term effects of such flexing and twisting of the frame at ball impact.
 

Karma Tennis

Hall of Fame
Yes, that video give a good indication of what happens. And that is with a static racquet that is mounted on a fixed point. The forces are even greater when the racquet is being swung by a player.

We know that the frames cop a lot of forces because I have seen on more than one occasion, players breaking frames when hitting a tennis ball.
 
The forces are even greater when the racquet is being swung by a player.
Of course, every amount of power is added, when the racquet is in rotation.
But I have never seen a racquet break during the beat. There must have been a crack before, otherwise this is not possible for my understanding.
 

shug

New User
My racquet's get longer and the stiffness/flex index goes down. I recently strung 1 of my racquets (see my spec's below) and took both (1 strung and the other unstrung) and had them both read on a Babolat RDC. The strung racquet stiffness/flex index had dropped to 68. The unstrung racquet's stiffness/flex index was/is at spec 72 (both same racquets, purchased new at the same time).
 
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